The Helsinki debacle

[OftenWrong]

1 minute ago, Argus said:

If you ever come across me saying anything good about Obama's foreign policy, please let me know, because I can't recall ever being that drunk. As for Trump being 'tougher' on Russia, please, give me a damn break.

More specifically, Congress levied sanctions by an almost unanimous vote, against Trump's wishes, and the White House ignored the bill as long as they could before finally, grudgingly, applying some of them.

BS. It was aimed at shaming Merkel because Germany wasn't paying enough for its military. People with natural gas can always find customers somewhere.

And he's had very little success, and the only way it has a 'direct impact' on Putin is if Putin invades Western Europe.

I don't see Obama failing to do join the UK and its allies in expelling Russians. And most of those sanctions were either on before Trump got into power (he actually talked about removing them) or were levied by Congress. The only thing the Trump admin has done is provide some weapons to Ukraine (too late) and close a couple of consulates, which I will give them credit for.

Trump administration did what it did, despite your protestations. That includes expelling Russian diplomats. Trump wants NATO members to pay up to double what they're paying now. He pushed for increasing the NATO budget in May 2018, to the tune of $40B. Already posted the links here this morning in the NATO thread. No response from anyone to that, crickets.
Trump's efforts in NK have a slim chance of success. That is better than no chance. Today we hear the announcement that NK is preparing to return the remains of 50 US soldiers to America. Yesterday, the media was screaming that he accomplished nothing. I'll tell you who accomplished nothing, Obama. But the love and praise for the man still oozes out of every liberal pore.

Personally, I don't believe anything said by the media whores or any politician. Even a Trump will lie when convenient. I have no problem differentiating between what is being said, and what's being done. The time for truth in the media is past. Good luck to you Sir.

[Argus]

26 minutes ago, paxrom said:

Yes some manufactured good prices will go up but so will wages and jobs. Remember that America is not a heavy manufacturing economy, we are a service based industry which is where everyone is heading. So if anything Economic nationalism serves us just fine because it rewards non trade-able sector such as service at the expense of trad-able sector such as manufacturing. 

No, it does the opposite, as I've pointed out in the post you're responding to. You'll have to manufacture stuff yourself because of high tariffs you impose on others. They'll do the same to your service industry. The high paying jobs at Apple, Microsoft, IBM and a huge host of others will no longer be exportable because other nations will slap big tariffs on such things. You think they can't? Think again! Under economic nationalism there are no WTO rules. You'll be exchanging jobs like that, which service clients all over the world, for garment industry and crappy assembly line jobs putting together Iphones. Remember how the Chinese were committing suicide in large numbers at the assembly plants a while back? Agree that America isn't a heavy manufacturing economy. Those jobs are being automated more and more. So why is Trump fighting to bring them back and dump high caliber service jobs instead?

Quote

 The crown jewel of America. Remember America economic backbone is innovation.

Which it sells around the world in the form of both goods and services. The US has a $264.3 billion trade surplus in services with the world in 2015. Trump never talks about that, of course. 

Quote

   Also Argus, Canada is already receiving massive benefits to the economic nationalism, there's a reason why silicone valley is investing heavily in Canada we are pushing all the foreign worker there.  This is where we are dumping all the foreign worker ;P.

The only people who think erecting a huge trade wall around the US will actually benefit the US are Trumpists. None of the economists or corporate think tanks believe it. They don't see a better future for the US economy without trade. 

To repeat, there is certainly a case for punishing China, which has been blatantly cheating on trade for decades, but very few others have been. And Trump's belief that every previous US government have been idiots is, well, idiotic, especially when coming from a guy who so manifestly does not understand a damn thing about trade, business or economics.

Edited July 19, 2018 by Argus

[Argus]

11 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Trump administration did what it did, despite your protestations. 

I've already pointed out what it did and did not do. Trump's only mention about sanctions on Russia was his complaint that they exist and his desire to remove them. 

[OftenWrong]

2 minutes ago, Argus said:

I've already pointed out what it did and did not do.

Including the part where he gets praise and thanks for acquiring another $40B for NATO? What is NATO for again? Countering the Russian military threat. Why bother with that when he could do nothing, or even just the opposite? Because it's a serious problem that needs to be addressed. Trump can talk nice to his "competitors" all he wants. Would you trust him if he talked nice to you?

[paxamericana]

41 minutes ago, Argus said:

it does the opposite, as I've pointed out in the post you're responding to. You'll have to manufacture stuff yourself because of high tariffs you impose on others. They'll do the same to your service industry.

Service sector jobs are by definition non-trade-able industries. How would it affect us if you can't trade healthcare services, or blue collar jobs in the first place? Silicone Valley jobs are the same, they're service based. It could be argued that intellectual property is a non-trade-able commodity because the transaction only happens once. Economic nationalism benefit these type of industry that are non-trade-able. This is why the trade war tariff doesn't really hurt the US economy, in fact its the opposite because now it allows for further job growth in the de-globalized supply chain. Globalization benefit those who are the most productive (or manipulating predatory-economics), but everyone can't become Elon musk or Einstein, they need their productivity protected from globalized competition to thrive. Since the rest of us big brains are already involved with service based high-tech industries then why do we need globalization too? Seems like a win win for America. Manufacturing jobs are automated Argus, and if they aren't already they will be, there is no longer a need for a globalized manufacturing supply chain. Other then the extraction of minerals which you can do at home if you have good natural resources like we have here in north america. The rest of goods that can be traded will be done through free trade. This is what Trump's economist are offering. Protectionist trade in key industry of manufactured hi-tech industry for the less productive members of society and free trade for all other non essential industry such as agriculture. 

Edited July 19, 2018 by paxrom

[turningrite]

37 minutes ago, paxrom said:

Service sector jobs are by definition non-trade-able industries. How would it affect us if you can't trade healthcare services, or blue collar jobs in the first place? Silicone Valley jobs are the same, they're service based. It could be argued that intellectual property is a non-trade-able commodity because the transaction only happens once. Economic nationalism benefit these type of industry that are non-trade-able. This is why the trade war tariff doesn't really hurt the US economy, in fact its the opposite because now it allows for further job growth in the de-globalized supply chain. Globalization benefit those who are the most productive (or manipulating predatory-economics), but everyone can't become Elon musk or Einstein, they need their productivity protected from globalized competition to thrive. Since the rest of us big brains are already involved with service based high-tech industries then why do we need globalization too? Seems like a win win for America. Manufacturing jobs are automated Argus, and if they aren't already they will be, there is no longer a need for a globalized manufacturing supply chain. Other then the extraction of minerals which you can do at home if you have good natural resources like we have here in north america. The rest of goods that can be traded will be done through free trade. This is what Trump's economist are offering. Protectionist trade in key industry of manufactured hi-tech industry for the less productive members of society and free trade for all other non essential industry such as agriculture. 

I'm not sure I really understand the basis of your confidence in Trump's strategy. The U.S. is lucky that its reliance on foreign trade is less pronounced than is the case for other advanced economies because that might shield it from some of the damage it potentially faces as a result of Trump's policies. A recent article by the highly respected Nobel prize-winning American economist Paul Krugman, 'How to Lose a Trade War' (link below), discusses the lack of coherence and/or logic in Trump's tariff moves. I agree with you, though, that globalization has been a bust that was designed to transfer manufacturing activities and jobs to low-wage economies. The supposedly beneficial feedback loop that was supposed to be generated by increasing demand for Western products in low-wage countries never materialized. It was a hoax, and a very destructive one at that. But this process has been as harmful to some of the countries, like Canada, that Trump is currently attacking.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/07/opinion/how-to-lose-a-trade-war.html

[paxamericana]

5 minutes ago, turningrite said:

I'm not sure I really understand the basis of your confidence in Trump's strategy. The U.S. is lucky that its reliance on foreign trade is less pronounced than is the case for other advanced economies because that might shield it from some of the damage it potentially faces as a result of Trump's policies. A recent article by the highly respected Nobel prize-winning American economist Paul Krugman, 'How to Lose a Trade War' (link below), discusses the lack of coherence and/or logic in Trump's tariff moves. I agree with you, though, that globalization has been a bust that was designed to transfer manufacturing activities and jobs to low-wage economies. The supposedly beneficial feedback loop that was supposed to be generated by increasing demand for Western products in low-wage countries never materialized. It was a hoax, and a very destructive one at that. But this process has been as harmful to some of the countries, like Canada, that Trump is currently attacking.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/07/opinion/how-to-lose-a-trade-war.html

That article had one fundamental flawed, it stills believe in a globalized manufacturing supply chain. My argument is that since America's economy is not a manufacturing or export based then why would globalization matter. Our main industry is service based, non-tradable which don't benefit any from globalization other than a cheaper supply of manufactured goods that could be easily automated in America. and Since we both agree that globalization is bad and no longer needed then would it not be logical to concede that economic nationalism should be adopted quickly?

Edited July 19, 2018 by paxrom

[bush_cheney2004]

6 minutes ago, turningrite said:

 But this process has been as harmful to some of the countries, like Canada, that Trump is currently attacking.

 

Trump is not responsible for Canada, nor was he elected to Make Canada Great Again.

That is Trudeau's job, and he is failing miserably.

[Jimwd]

There is no doubt trump is compromised . Hopefully mueller gets this done soon,

[paxamericana]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Trump is not responsible for Canada, nor was he elected to Make Canada Great Again.

That is Trudeau's job, and he is failing miserably.

*whispers* because he's a globalist banking elite that subscribe to the false promise of identity politics?

[Jimwd]

1 minute ago, paxrom said:

*whispers* because he's a globalist banking elite that subscribe to the false promise of identity politics?

No..because of the trump tower meeting with Russians and subsequent lies. Because a guy representing* russian interests just coincidentally became trump’s campaign manager, a guy caught laundering dirty russian money . Because his former NSA. Lied about conversations with Russia, because one of his advisors is a self confessed kremlin advisor,. Because of conspiring with the Russians to  undermine a us election,      Shall I continue ?

[paxamericana]

3 minutes ago, Jimwd said:

No..because of the trump tower meeting with Russians and subsequent lies. Because a guy representing* russian interests just coincidentally became trump’s campaign manager, a guy caught laundering dirty russian money . Because his former NSA. Lied about conversations with Russia, because one of his advisors is a self confessed kremlin advisor,. Because of conspiring with the Russians to  undermine a us election,      Shall I continue ?

Look we've already established that Trump is the siberian candidate. You're preaching to the choir.  Only a genius like putin can be clever enough to place sanction on himself and his buddies while angering the rest of america with election meddling. 

Edited July 19, 2018 by paxrom

[bush_cheney2004]

9 minutes ago, paxrom said:

*whispers* because he's a globalist banking elite that subscribe to the false promise of identity politics?

 

...and because he is a putz who only reacts to what Trump is doing/saying.

It was Trump who bombed Syria's airbase with cruise missiles after Putin warned him not to.....Trudeau didn't/couldn't as a NATO deadbeat....offering faint praise after the event.

Edited July 19, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[Jimwd]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

...and because he is a putz who only reacts to what Trump is doing/saying.

It was Trump who bombed Syria's Shayrat airbase with cruise missiles after Putin warned him not to.....Trudeau didn't/couldn't as a NATO deadbeat....offering faint praise after the event.

Trump did nothing he didn’t warn Russia he was going to do so they could warn their allies,the Syrians,

thats what conmen do....put on a show .con those that are suckers for con jobs. Like mexico will pay for a walll....

[bush_cheney2004]

5 minutes ago, Jimwd said:

Trump did nothing he didn’t warn Russia he was going to do so they could warn their allies,the Syrians,

thats what conmen do....put on a show .con those that are suckers for con jobs. Like mexico will pay for a walll....

 

Trump bombed Syria regardless of Putin/Russia, and then had the balls to meet him in Helsinki after doing it.

Trudeau did neither, because he is a NATO deadbeat and small player on the world stage...like most putzes.

"Trump matters more than Trudeau." ®

Edited July 19, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[turningrite]

12 minutes ago, paxrom said:

That article had one fundamental flawed, it stills believe in a globalized manufacturing supply chain. My argument is that since America's economy is not a manufacturing or export based then why would globalization matter. Our main industry is service based, non-tradable which don't benefit any from globalization other than a cheaper supply of manufactured goods that could be easily automated in America. and Since we both agree that globalization is bad and no longer needed then would it not be logical to concede that economic nationalism should be adopted quickly?

Well, I'll defer to a Nobel prize winner in this case. I think the entire economic model will likely be restructured over the next generation and I suspect few countries are prepared to deal with this. I recently read an article (which I wish I could locate online) that argued the low-wage economies will be hit hardest because the kind of jobs they've come to rely on will disappear due to automation. Services-based economies will have an advantage. But we'll have to be smart in making the necessary adjustments to ensure we utilize comparative advantage where we can. Canada can produce aluminum more inexpensively than can the U.S. because of the availability of abundant and cheap hydroelectric power in the producing provinces. Why shouldn't this be used to the benefit the entire North American economy? I think Trump's zero-sum approach is economically naive. But he comes from a background in the real estate and casino industries, so likely has little understanding of foreign trade.

[paxamericana]

2 minutes ago, turningrite said:

I think Trump's zero-sum approach is economically naive. But he comes from a background in the real estate and casino industries, so likely has little understanding of foreign trade.

It's not a zero sum approach, it's more like a backlash to globalization. Look we still need free trade with Canada and the rest of the world for commodities like agriculture and energy . But for America with it's super duper great service based economy it no longer needs to be tied down to the shackle of globalization. This isn't trump's policies, it's peter navarro, steve bannon etc... Stop getting bogged down with the puppet, look at the puppet master. 

[Jimwd]

8 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Trump bombed Syria regardless of Putin/Russia, and then had the balls to meet him in Helsinki after doing it.

Trudeau did neither, because he is a NATO deadbeat and small player on the world stage...like most putzes.

"Trump matters more than Trudeau." ®

Trump matters more because his betrayal  of America is going down in history. The American president is compromised by Russia and every thinking person knows that,. You can credit the American education system for trump.,a demagogue that insulted his way to the presidency, attacking pows, gold star familes, judges etc.......

And when confronted with putins killing of journalists and political opponents....trump’s responses...”Americans are killers too.”

There is an old American saying..if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck.....it’s a duck....

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Jimwd said:

Trump matters more because his betrayal  of America is going down in history. The American president is compromised by Russia and every thinking person knows that,.

 

No logic here at all....Trump bombed Syria/Assad (twice), ignoring Putin/Russia.  

Trump is so "compromised", he killed dozens of Russian nationals in another Syrian counter-attack.

 

[bush_cheney2004]

I wonder if President Trump apologized to Putin in Helsinki for destroying a company of Russian mercenaries in Syria....."so sorry Vlad...but my guys just needed some target practice":

 

Quote

In the first audio clip, a man says, “One squadron fucking lost 200 people...right away, another one lost 10 people…and I don’t know about the third squadron but it got torn up pretty badly, too.... So three squadrons took a beating.”

The man explains that American forces used artillery and helicopter gunships to repel the assault. “They were all shelling the holy fuck out of it, and our guys didn’t have anything besides the assault rifles…. Nothing at all, I’m not even talking about shoulder-fired SAMs or anything like that…. They tore us to pieces, put us through hell,” he says.

The speaker is also critical of the Russian government’s response to the incident, saying, “They beat our asses like we were little pieces of shit...but our fucking government will go in reverse now, and nobody will respond or anything and nobody will punish anyone for this.”

“My guys just called me, they are sitting there drinking, many are MIA, it’s a total fuckup, another humiliation.... Nobody gives a fuck about us.”

In a second clip, a man explains that the battle quickly descended into a massacre as the Russians lost all armored support. “Out of all vehicles only one tank survived and one BRDM (Armored Reconnaissance Vehicle) after the attack, all other BRDMs and tanks were destroyed in the first minutes of the fight, right away.”

https://www.newsweek.com/total-f-russian-mercenaries-syria-lament-us-strike-killed-dozens-818073

 

[paxamericana]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

I wonder if President Trump apologized to Putin in Helsinki for destroying a company of Russian mercenaries in Syria....."so sorry Vlad...but my guys just needed some target practice":

 

 

Yeah our MIC had some surplus ammunition so we thought caring is sharing.

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, paxrom said:

Yeah our MIC had some surplus ammunition so we thought caring is sharing.

 

Right...Trump was so afraid of Putin that he lit up those Russian mercenaries like it was Christmas.

 

[Jimwd]

55 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

No logic here at all....Trump bombed Syria/Assad (twice), ignoring Putin/Russia.  

Trump is so "compromised", he killed dozens of Russian nationals in another Syrian counter-attack.

 

 

[Jimwd]

3 minutes ago, Jimwd said:

 

Empty runway..empty buildings,,.....putin owns trump. Enjoy the con job, mexico will send the check any day now. As soon as those hawaiin investigators get back....chuckle 

 

oh and mercenaries working for assad,,.....lol......

Edited July 19, 2018 by Jimwd

[bush_cheney2004]

6 minutes ago, Jimwd said:

Empty runway..empty buildings,,.....putin owns trump.

 

Good...I hope Putin owns Trump some more.

I love the sound of M777 howitzers in the morning.

Please Putin...own Trump some more !!!