Does Canada Understand The Cost Of Freedom?

[caesar]

Argus; I resent your continuous insults to everyone who doesn't believe as you that the Americans and Israel can do no wrong and Canada or Muslims can do no right. Cut out the insults such as calling us idiots or calling our beliefs to be assinine. Where are your degrees and expertise????? You just think you know it all.

assinine suggestion

When you have no facts or figures to back up your biased views you insult posters that do have "proof"

[Argus]

Argus;  I resent your continuous insults to everyone who doesn't believe as you that the Americans and Israel can do no wrong and Canada or Muslims can do no right.

I don't believe I've ever taken such positions so I'm afraid I'll have to dismiss your complaint as - well, dumb.

Cut out the insults such as calling us idiots or calling our beliefs to be assinine.

To begin with, I very rarely insult people who don't insult me first. And even then I try to avoid it. Usually it's easy enough to just insult the moronic things they say - which is fair game.

When you have no facts or figures to back up your biased views you insult posters that do have "proof"

You want me to put together a five hundred page report on the resources and military power of Germany in 1941 as opposed to that of the Britsh Commonwealth and add in learned disertations from various historians on whether Britain could have won? That's kind of hard to do in a forum where you can't really post anything more than a couple of hundred words. The suggestion that Germany was on the road to inevitable defeat even before it attacked Russia or the Americans entered the war is preposterous and silly, and not supported by history. You may regard a few sentences about British victories in Africa as proof of inevitable victory, but I certainly do not.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Argus,

There are far too many 'what ifs' to conclude what the deciding factor in WWII was. The biggest one would probably be "What if Barbarossa had been launched on schedule, and Hitler directed his drive solely on Moscow? The USSR most likely would have fallen, at least as far as the Urals, in 1941. Then, the drive into the Caucasus ould have been a 'mopping up' operation rather than a critical, resource draining, sideshow. After than, millions of troops and equipment would have been available to focus on the elimination of Britain, and it's removal of a staging area for the D-day invasions would have rendered the western coast of Europe unassailable.

There is a great board game called 'Axis and Allies', which I have played many times. It is based on accumulation and allotment of resources, and If Russia falls, the game is pretty much over. Not necessarily, but only a boob could lose once he has fortified his backdoor by conquest.

[Guest eureka]

Argus:

When you can get past your certitudes you may come to realize how defensive your position seems. When you can get past "idiotic, moronic, asinine" as cmmentary on other s who are psoting facts, you may attain a little credibility.

Thus far, you have none.

I posted an assessment by American historians that concluded that the Battle of Britain was the beginning of the end for the Germans. You dismiss that in the same way - evn though it comes from your most favoured nation.

There is much more if you can really bear to read it. American troop strength reached around eight million by war's end. By the end of 1942, it was only around three million. Many of those were still in the US and many more were still in England. American strength was so low at the time of El Alamein that the troops that landed at Casablanca had to be shipped directly from the US.

The Middle East peripheral. You make me laugh. British victory ther was the cause of the failure of Barbarossa as much as the Russian resistance. The German supply routes were gone: there was, from the beginning, a shortage of oil - among other things. Russia could be supplied with its needs, including the armaments. Italy was essentially out of the war and Germany was besoming alone as the Allies built up.

What is asinine is your contempt for the British and Commonwealth forces.

[August1991]

British victory ther was the cause of the failure of Barbarossa as much as the Russian resistance.

WTF?

The German supply routes were gone: there was, from the beginning, a shortage of oil - among other things.

Do you mean that El Alamein was critical for German supply routes?

eureka, how was a minor battle in north Africa, on the periphery of the European theatre, critical for WW2?

What is asinine is your contempt for the British and Commonwealth forces.

The contempt is not asinine; it is non-existent. I can't speak for Argus, but I have no contempt for British forces. But I think a just view of history is wise.

The past century saw numerous threats to individual freedom. The US played a critical role in fighting off these threats.

"What if Barbarossa had been launched on schedule, and Hitler directed his drive solely on Moscow? The USSR most likely would have fallen, at least as far as the Urals, in 1941.

I have thought about this, and seen the lay of the land and the people involved. I think it would have made no difference if Germany had succeeded in the Balkans and invaded Russia earlier. In a sense, Germany got a second chance in 1942.

The Russians were not going to lose.

I bear in mind too that the Russians were occupied by the Mongols for 200 years. I don't think the Germans could have done even that.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear August1991,

I bear in mind too that the Russians were occupied by the Mongols for 200 years. I don't think the Germans could have done even that.

The Mongols didn't have Einsatzgruppen troops trying to de-populate the country for 'lebensraum' for their 'superior race' though. They didn't suggest that "All males over 15 be shot, and SS 'stallions' released after (Hermann Goering). While partisan activity was very detrimental to Germany's efforts, had there not been an 'eastern front' using the bulk of German resources, there would have been no partisans left, in short order.

[caesar]

I know more than you. You are a ill mannered ignorant boor. Anyone who can listen to all the lies and bs coming for America on this invasion of Iraq. Proven lying over and over. Now they punish a soldier for torturing a prisoner. The orders came fro the whitehouse; the poor guy was only following orders and they make a scapegoat of him and ruin his life. The same thing happened over Vietnam with a coupld soldiers taking the heat and being prosecuted for following orders.

[Guest eureka]

August. at times you puzzle me. What I said is the same as I have said before and know no other way of saying it. The Middle-East was critical for the German supply routes: only a complete ignoramus could not understand that or that Britain had gained control of the routes. It was central to Allied policy. El Alamein came quite some time later.

Minor battle on the periphery of the European theater! Be serious. It was the most important battle of the war and North Africa was the European theatre. There could have been no invasion of Sicily without those British successes: there would have been no Operation Overload without that.

The British Navy and Air Force had established supremacy and the Army now did the same. Hitler miscalculated in thinking he could also take on the Russians, but that might have been a desperate premptive attempt to win a quick victory over a front that might have collapsed from internal divisions. It happened previously.

[caesar]

Might as well give up Eureka; Argus refuses to accept any evidence or ideas that do not coincide with his narrow prejudiced mind. I have never seen him approve of anything Canada is doing or has done. He is a hopeless case and completely rude.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear eureka,

It was the most important battle of the war

Nonsense.

Hitler miscalculated in thinking he could also take on the Russians, but that might have been a desperate premptive attempt to win a quick victory over a front that might have collapsed from internal divisions.

Hitler's ambition was always Russia. France and Britain declared war on Germany out of treaty obligations to Poland. (By the way, Germany only took half of Poland; Russia invaded the other half!)

The 'Pact of Steel', the non-aggression pact between Russia and Germany was only to give Germany some time to prepare for 'Barbarossa'. Even Stalin knew Hitler was coming east, he just didn't know when. Hitler wanted 'living space' for the german 'superior race', and was going to reduce the 'degenerate Slavs' to the rank of helots (slaves). This idealism was later reflected by the treatment used against the different occupied territories. Western countries, and their prisoners, were treated much better than those in the east.

[Guest eureka]

Explain why it is nonsense! In the course of thinking of justifications for your dismissal so, you may come to understand its importance.

[August1991]

The Middle-East was critical for the German supply routes

How? Supply routes to where?

Oil in Romania and in the Caucasus was of much greater importance to Germany.

Hitler miscalculated in thinking he could also take on the Russians, but that might have been a desperate premptive attempt to win a quick victory over a front that might have collapsed from internal divisions. It happened previously.

Miscalculated? Hitler's intention from the very start was to occupy Russia. Thelonious has made this point better than I.

eureka, it seems you perceive WW2 as a war between England and Germany. I disagree. IMV, it was primarily a war, in Europe at least, between Russia and Germany.

Even Stalin knew Hitler was coming east, he just didn't know when.

I disagree.

Dictators may allow a reputation for toughness to compete with benevolence, but they will never, absolutely never, allow for a hint of incompetence.

I happen to think all humans are fallible and tyrants more incompetent than most. Hitler, Stalin, Franco, Mao, Mussolini were psychopathic jerks. No one now says Caligula was a strategic genius.

All evidence points to Stalin not expecting a German attack.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear August1991,

All evidence points to Stalin not expecting a German attack.

Here is a quote from "The World At Arms, A Reader's Digest Illustrated History of WWII" (1989) pg. 105

Regarding the invasion of the USSR by Germany;

"Official Soviet policy insisted that such a thing was an impossibility. In reality, though, Stalin was less optimistic. He was sure that war with Germany was inevitable sometime, and in the spring of 1941 had admitted privately that 'a German attack in the near future cannot be ruled out'. But his armies were in no shape to withstand an assault: 35,000 of it's senior officers had been purged in 1937-38 to ensure the unquestioning loyalty of the remainder...."

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear eureka,

Explain why it is nonsense! In the course of thinking of justifications for your dismissal so, you may come to understand its importance.

Ok, here goes... the following is a quote from "The Illustrated History of The Third Reich" by John Bradley, 1978, pgs 145-147.

With Greece and Crete being threatened by both Italy and Germany,....

" However, Hitler decided to lend a hand to Mussolini and on 5 February 1941 the Afrika Korps, led by Lieutenant General Rommel, made it's appearance in Libya to prop up it's Italian ally. Early in March, Rommel, contrary to all expectation, launched a major offensive which wiped out all British gains and was a major disaster for the British Army in North Africa.....Still, this was a tremendous success, quite unhoped for, as Hitler intended to clear his flank in the Balkans, for a much grander battle, the invasion and destruction of the USSR."

In the coming months, Mussolini tried to take Greece by himself, and had his butt royally kicked. The Italians actually ended up losing territory to the formidible Greeks, ending up behind their starting point in Albania! The Germans had to step in, crush Greece, and launch a very costly 'Operation Mercury' to take Crete. Then, also on pg 147,

"This diversion, as well as the imbroglios in North Africa, Yugoslavia and Greece was to upset his timetable for Barbarossa: the dissipation of resources delayed the execution of Barbarossa, an operation directed against a one time ally, but now a mighty enemy, the USSR."

This is not meant to belittle the heroic actions of the Brits in N. Africa, nor to say that their efforts were unimportant. The authors of these books also have the benefit of hindsight when writing, but there is no way that N. Africa was 'a turning point' in the war, unless you mean 'omen'-wise.

[August1991]

The Germans had to step in, crush Greece, and launch a very costly 'Operation Mercury' to take Crete.

The operation was something. I walked through a German war cemetery on Crete (near the airport at Hania). Then I walked through the Commonwealth War cemetery. (It looks down on Suda Bay).

I smoked a few cigarettes in the Commonwealth cemetery, as I have always done, stubbing butts on gravestones and thanking the guys for my right to do it.

The German cemetery surprised me. So many black rectangular stones in the earth. Young guys.

I suspect Hitler was practical and didn't want two fronts. A superstitious autocrat, he agreed when an underling said Barbarossa should start in June, the anniversary of France's demission.

Was starting too late in 1941 a mistake? IMO, no.

I have spoken to too many Russians who were occupied by Germans in that time. The Germans could have occupied all of Russia for a generation and Hitler would still have lost.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear August1991,

I have spoken to too many Russians who were occupied by Germans in that time. The Germans could have occupied all of Russia for a generation and Hitler would still have lost

I am inclined to disagree, even though I have tremendous respect for the 'fighting spirit' of the Russians, especially the partisans. Unfortunately, however, if the Germans under Hitler had taken Russia, it would have been the 'last generation' of Russians, and you would have been able to talk to none of them. Hitler's plans were to ship 75% of them off to Siberia (and to death), and the rest were to become helots, or slaves.

[August1991]

Hitler's plans were to ship 75% of them off to Siberia (and to death), and the rest were to become helots, or slaves.

If that was Hitler's intention, do you really believe that he would have succeeded?

[Guest eureka]

How does that cange anything? The Allied forces in North Africa reversed those losses and captured the whole of the Middle East and East Africa after the date Bradley uses. Rommel was on the run: the Italians had been effectively sidelined; the supply routes (Suez, and the oil fields) had been secured.

Britain was an armed camp and its air force and navy were proving to be superior to the German forces.

The Nazi dream was in disconnected fragments by late 1941 and Barbarossa was as ill conceived as any campaign in the military history of the world. It is questionable that Germany could have occupied Russia even had they defeated it and it was the only opponent.

I consider, along with many historians, that the war was decided when the Battle of Britain was decided in favour of the Allies. From then, it was only a time frame that was in doubt and the amount of suffering.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear eureka,

The Allied forces in North Africa reversed those losses and captured the whole of the Middle East and East Africa after the date Bradley uses. Rommel was on the run: the Italians had been effectively sidelined; the supply routes (Suez, and the oil fields) had been secured.

Most of the oil for the German war machine was from Rumania. While Germany ceded the Rumanian territories of Bessarabia and N. Bukovina to the USSR in 1940, the German war machine could have been brought to a halt with the loss of the Rumanian oil fields. Saudi oil was never in Hitler's plans. (at least not immediately, but had he conquered the USSR, Germany could have moved in from the North) The taking of Egypt was to be a blow against British prestige, as well as threatening it's oil supplies, more than anything tactical.

Britain was an armed camp and its air force and navy were proving to be superior to the German forces.

Of British naval superiority, there is no question. However, the UK was losing the Battle of Britain until Goering changed the focus of the bombing campaign from the airfields to the cities. This gave the heroic but very weary RAF a chance to recover, and staved off their elimination by attrition.

The Nazi dream was in disconnected fragments by late 1941 and Barbarossa was as ill conceived as any campaign in the military history of the world. It is questionable that Germany could have occupied Russia even had they defeated it and it was the only opponent.

Barbarossa was brilliantly conceived, and succeeded in crushing the bulk of the existing Soviet military. Had Hitler not intervened, re-routed troops in 'Operation Blau' into the Caucasus, and had let his generals 'do the details', it would have been a success, no question in my mind. How long Germany could have occupied it is another story, but don't forget, it was Hitler's plan to depopulate the country, and import Danes, Finns, etc to settle there, making occupation much easier.

Further, Hitler squandered his chance to have millions of Russians fighting for the Germans, for many deeply wished to see Stalin overthrown. Many (mistakenly) saw the Germans as 'liberators'. After the war, Stalin had whole villiages shipped off to Siberia in retribution.

Might I remind you, all this was after Germany had conquered almost all of Europe (save the neutral countries)!

[anticlimates]

America can go to hell. And take it's 2 years 2 late performance in each of the Great wars with it.

I don't buy American or travel to America anymore. I'm not paying for the smart bombs that redneck idiot uses for the retarded wars he starts.

[August1991]

I don't buy American or travel to America anymore. I'm not paying for the smart bombs that redneck idiot uses for the retarded wars he starts.

Are you using Windows? Internet Explorer? Mozilla Firefox?

I think it is fair to say that you would be dead within a matter of days if you were to stop all trades involving in some way an American.

[Guest eureka]

It is just the "conquering almost all of Europe" that makes what I have been writing real. Germany was greatly overextended and lacking both equipment and manpower to occupy so much and to fight on the other fronts.

[Hawk]

America can go to hell. And take it's 2 years 2 late performance in each of the Great wars with it.

I don't buy American or travel to America anymore. I'm not paying for the smart bombs that redneck idiot uses for the retarded wars he starts.

That has got to be the stupidest and most ridiculous statement I have ever heard =p

I am from Western Canada and still dont support mindless and pointless hatred of America, I dont understand any Canadian that can honestly simply hate someone else for being from a different country. Anti-Americans are most bigoted people on this planet.

What is different between hating someone for their skin color and hating someone for where they were born?

Grow up people, its time to stop acting like school-children.

However, despite the ravings and rantings of two old men (ceasar and eureka), Freedom brings up good points... although he does downplay Canada's contributions (we didn't JUST supply military help after all, and proportionally we DID send more of our population) I respect him for coming to a Canadian forums and stating his views. Its too bad he got flamed for it =p

You all just need to chill out

[Guest eureka]

And you. Hawk, need to change your monicker. A hawk has eyes that can see. And this "old man" has done some fighting to let you be free to hide while tossing out your childish insults. And, probably could still handle himself well enough to deal with you if you came out of hiding.

Did you get your style from throwing stones at the younger kids in the playground.

[anticlimates]

I don't buy American or travel to America anymore. I'm not paying for the smart bombs that redneck idiot uses for the retarded wars he starts.

Are you using Windows? Internet Explorer? Mozilla Firefox?

I think it is fair to say that you would be dead within a matter of days if you were to stop all trades involving in some way an American.

That's the most bizarre statement I've read in a long time.

Why would I be dead within a "matter of days" if we didn't get American crap? Be specific, please!