Does Canada Understand The Cost Of Freedom?

[Freedom]

George Bush has been bashed in every way in Canada. I remember how disgusted and shocked people were when he was reelected. Canadians think that Americans are out of touch, that Americans are war mongers and that Bush waged an illegal attack on Iraq.

I'll try to not be bashful, but justify why the US does what it does. America had to be won by the Brits, the Brits lost, yet they remain in Canada as the head of state. Americans had to fight in WWII and end NAZISM so that all (and very much Canada could have its freedom). The brillance of Ronald Reagan eventually sent USSR into demise and saved Canada from Geographically being the battleground of 2 nuclear armed countries.

I respect those courageous Canadians who fought in normandie, but all canada had to do for freedom was to ask the queen politely. Freedom comes at a cost, and Canada never really had to pay for it, so Canada doesn't know. Americans know, and its their know how that has allowed North america to be free.

Canada doesn't understand that if it weren't for the Americans, that its own military capabilities are so pre-historic, outdated and lacklustre and its borders so fragile, that it wouldn't take much for someone LIKE saddam to force his will.

Americans may be self-centered and not know world geography as much as Canadians but they understand that sacrifice is a part of freedom and that dictators and tyrants need to be stopped in a hurry.

My fear with Canada is that it is such a loving, caring, gentle and giving country and that because of that, Canada is blind and too trusting.

Until you sacrifice you never know. A huge proof of that is in Canadian identity. People in Canada do not proudly display the mapleaf as much as Americans, and in that much abundance. The union of all the provinces and territories is fragile, probably the most fragile in the free world. every province has its own identity, and about half are willing to opt out of the confederation. There isn't any event or sacrifice that ALL canadians can be proud of enough to put them together as one people sharing a common goal, and that is completely different south of the border.

[caesar]

We'll take the high road; you have taken the low road.

[Guest eureka]

One important part of the price of freedom is the taking of the trouble to be informed.

It appears that you have not suffered that price.

[Newfie Canadian]

George Bush has been bashed in every way in Canada

Canada is hardly unique in that area.

Americans had to fight in WWII and end NAZISM so that all

I would argue that this is historically inaccurate.

Where was the US in the fight against Nazi Germany before Dec 7th, 1941? Not sacrificing lives on the battlefields of Europe like Canadians, Britons and others.

Freedom comes at a cost, and Canada never really had to pay for it, so Canada doesn't know.

That's a simplistic view of Canadian history, IMO.

I will agree that the Canadian identity is a fickle thing.

[caesar]

My fear with Canada is that it is such a loving, caring, gentle and giving country and that because of that, Canada is blind and too trusting.

I don't think WE Canadians are too blind or trusting. We got George Bush's number and certainly do NOT miss his shortcoming or aggressive nature and we certainly do NOT trust him or his policies.

[daniel]

...

I respect those courageous Canadians who fought in normandie, but all canada had to do for freedom was to ask the queen politely. Freedom comes at a cost, and Canada never really had to pay for it, so Canada doesn't know. Americans know, and its their know how that has allowed North america to be free.

Canada doesn't understand that if it weren't for the Americans, that its own military capabilities are so pre-historic, outdated and lacklustre and its borders so fragile, that it wouldn't take much for someone LIKE saddam to force his will.

...

You make it sound like Canada only played a minor role in WWII. (And not to mention WWI.) But you know, Canada is much too modesty go on endlessly bragging to the world how we won the war.

The fact that Canada only had to ask the Queen should tell you something important about Canada. (And I shudder to think what you already think about this.) Yes, Virginia, independance without a drop of blood is possible. Gandhi tried it too.

Canadians know about fighting for our own freedom. The last time we did it was when the Americans invaded in 1812.

Also, Americans ought to learn a little more about their own history; how Canada was a major factor that helped push American colonists over the edge (so to speak). Some of your greatest heros were real Canada-haters.

There's much more to freedom than spending on the military. That is why so much of our tax dollars go towards public education, healthcare, and other social issues. Knowledge is power. We don't try to create a need for people to enter the millitary as a career option as a last resort. Those who enter the military do so on their real intentions.

And lastly (of course there is so much more), you tend to equate GWB-bashing as American-bashing. When Canadians bash our own PM, there is a distinction made. That it is the PM and his governing party that is criticized but not the whole country. We recognize our PM is a human being and not the supreme being so we can criticize him and his policies and actions accordingly.

Bet you still can't understand this concept because Americans stand behind their Commander-in-Chief regardless of how wrong he or they believe he is.

[Freedom]

...

I respect those courageous Canadians who fought in normandie, but all canada had to do for freedom was to ask the queen politely. Freedom comes at a cost, and Canada never really had to pay for it, so Canada doesn't know. Americans know, and its their know how that has allowed North america to be free.

Canada doesn't understand that if it weren't for the Americans, that its own military capabilities are so pre-historic, outdated and lacklustre and its borders so fragile, that it wouldn't take much for someone LIKE saddam to force his will.

...

You make it sound like Canada only played a minor role in WWII. (And not to mention WWI.) But you know, Canada is much too modesty go on endlessly bragging to the world how we won the war.

The fact that Canada only had to ask the Queen should tell you something important about Canada. (And I shudder to think what you already think about this.) Yes, Virginia, independance without a drop of blood is possible. Gandhi tried it too.

Canadians know about fighting for our own freedom. The last time we did it was when the Americans invaded in 1812.

Also, Americans ought to learn a little more about their own history; how Canada was a major factor that helped push American colonists over the edge (so to speak). Some of your greatest heros were real Canada-haters.

There's much more to freedom than spending on the military. That is why so much of our tax dollars go towards public education, healthcare, and other social issues. Knowledge is power. We don't try to create a need for people to enter the millitary as a career option as a last resort. Those who enter the military do so on their real intentions.

And lastly (of course there is so much more), you tend to equate GWB-bashing as American-bashing. When Canadians bash our own PM, there is a distinction made. That it is the PM and his governing party that is criticized but not the whole country. We recognize our PM is a human being and not the supreme being so we can criticize him and his policies and actions accordingly.

Bet you still can't understand this concept because Americans stand behind their Commander-in-Chief regardless of how wrong he or they believe he is.

you brought in the best defence on behalf of canada, and i will respond.

in combining my response to your first and second last paragraph, let me remind you that Robert Borden had to persuade a divided Canada to come to Britain's aid during WWI. That trend has not changed, and it demonstrates my point that Canada, as a result of these challenges on the federal leadership has become centrally weak. I personally do not like GWB the slightest bit, but I am glad he's the commander in chief. Kerry would have made me very nervous.

I don't know where you get the belief that GWB suffers from lack of criticism. The criticism on his foreign and domestic policies are always going to be there, but at the end of the day would you really expect an american to have greater faith in a paul martin or chretien to make the best choices for the US ? I think not.

The fact that Canada had to ask the queen tells me nothing, except for the fact that many early immigrant Canadians had British lineage, Canada was a part of the commonwealth active in British wars (of the non empire building nature), Canadian climate was far too difficult for the Brits, and the combination of those things allowed an easier transition of power.

I'm not a fan of Gandhi, because I believe it would have been much more beneficial in the long run for Indians to intensify violence towards the british and eliminate them from south asia. Gandhi's peaceful ways led to the formation of pakistan, the kashmir conflict, and probably the only place on earth likely to have a nuclear war.

the one truth remains, at war or not, the US is always guaranteed its togetherness, whereas no Canadian can predict that all these provinces will continue to be a part of the union 10 years from now.

you said "there's much more to freedom than spending on the military" ? you see, that's the key difference between the 2 scopes of thought processes. you never had to sacrifice (yeah except for WWI and II for the brits) and you never will because even though big brother is constantly criticized, why would one need a military when you got big brother keeping a guard ?

i stand behind the commander in chief 100%. thanks to him the kurds are free, political prisoners are no longer killed, Gaddafi saw all this and just gave up his stockpile without a single bullet being fired. afghan women are free.

[Freedom]

My fear with Canada is that it is such a loving, caring, gentle and giving country and that because of that, Canada is blind and too trusting.

I don't think WE Canadians are too blind or trusting. We got George Bush's number and certainly do NOT miss his shortcoming or aggressive nature and we certainly do NOT trust him or his policies.

Oh yes caesar, of course you're not trusting of Bush, no doubt about that and I don't think it really matters to Bush whether you do or not.

what i really meant is that Canadian society is just like the cindarella story where its hard for people to see the rude side of life. i can see how shocked people are here watching horrific images of people in asia suffering from the tsunami disaster and canadian by far have a much bigger heart than americans, no doubt about that.

however, god forbid, if a similar mishap occured in canada, how would people deal with it. Canada has been known to unknowingly harbor terrorists.

[Freedom]

I would argue that this is historically inaccurate.

Where was the US in the fight against Nazi Germany before Dec 7th, 1941? Not sacrificing lives on the battlefields of Europe like Canadians, Britons and others.

Good question. Lessons of WWII evolved the US into what it is today. Americans had the attitude that is was Europe's problem initially, and later realized that tyrants need to be stopped early before they spread their cancer. My friend, especially at that stage, Canada WAS pretty much Britain, so Canadian involvement was almost required

[Newfie Canadian]

My friend, especially at that stage, Canada WAS pretty much Britain, so Canadian involvement was almost required

I'll concede that participation was expected, but not required.

Lessons of WWII evolved the US into what it is today. Americans had the attitude that is was Europe's problem initially, and later realized that tyrants need to be stopped early before they spread their cancer.

The US has had, as have other countries, the opportunity to stop tyrants and needless death over the decades, but haven't bothered. Rwanda is one example.

The Taliban before 9/11 weren't even on the radar.

[The Terrible Sweal]

George Bush has been bashed in every way in Canada.

Oh come now. There are many other ways GWB can yet be bashed.

Americans had to fight in WWII and end NAZISM so that all (and very much Canada could have its freedom).

A grossly reductionist characterization of events.

The brillance of Ronald Reagan eventually sent USSR into demise and saved Canada from Geographically being the battleground of 2 nuclear armed countries.

He'd have done that anyway, Canada or no Canada, right?

Freedom comes at a cost, and Canada never really had to pay for it, so Canada doesn't know.

Y'know where horseshit comes from, Freedom?

Canada doesn't understand that if it weren't for the Americans, that its own military capabilities are so pre-historic, outdated and lacklustre and its borders so fragile, that it wouldn't take much for someone LIKE saddam to force his will.

Canada is well aware of the advantage of being within the U.S. defensive umbrella. Thanks for protecting yourselves so well. We really do enjoy the convenience.

Americans may be self-centered and not know world geography as much as Canadians but they understand that sacrifice is a part of freedom and that dictators and tyrants need to be stopped in a hurry.

Consider what you said here... you say American's may be [lacking what it takes to make wise choices] but they [will act anyway based on their feelings].

My friend, surely you can see that's folly.

Until you sacrifice you never know.

BLECH. Sorry. Profound ignorance makes a toxic mix with overweening self-satisfaction.

[jccc]

Freedom

Please enlighten us with the PERSONAL sacrifices YOU yourself have made.

Answer us this as well...how much would the US like having a powerful miltary to the North ?? Y'all crap your pants over a guy who may or may not have WMDs half the world away, what if Canada had WMDs pointed in directions the US did not know about ??

I thinks its time the US started worrying about herself & the mess she is in & stick her "foreign policy" where it does belong!!! Canadians do not live in fear, that is freedom, Americans live in constant fear of the next terrorist attack, that is not being free!!

Jim

[daniel]

Freedom:

Thanks for respecting my point of view and being able to identify a fundamental difference in our two country's perspective on the world. Most people don't respect that difference.

1) You disagreed with Ghandi's approach where most people in the rest of the world admire it. It's also no surprise that the UN isn't held with high regard by the US. The UN created after the failure of the League of Nations by Canada believed that the world's conflicts should be resolved at the discussion table instead of the battleground. This goes directly against the grain of America's reliance of violence.

This reliance of violence hasn't changed in America's 200+ years. It's no surprise the Indians, who were no friends to the British rather sided with them than the Americans in your war of independance. And the Indian Wars after that further proved the point.

Do I need to explain the mad rush to finish the CPR for you?

2) Since the Boar War, Canada had registered its self determination of entering wars with Britain. The draft during WWI was because the British Loyalists who were so eager to join needed further enforcement. The Quebecers, who never held any loyalty towards any British initiative, did not enlist with the enthusiasm the British Loyalists did. Thus the draft.

Quebecers. Criticized for not eagerly joining WWI. But also praised because without Quebecers, there would be no United States. Think about Canada's influence on the United States.

3) This reliance on Military spending to support its states shows that no matter how advanced it is, the United States is no different from any other 3rd world military-run dictatorship. In those countries, you don't have controll of your country without the loyalty of the military chief. Case in point: 1)Pakistan, in particular Bhutto, Zia etc. 2) Feudal system; 3) Tiananmen Square.

The American structure of government is no more than an expanded military organization. Note, the US President IS the Commander-in-Chief of the military.

[caesar]

however, god forbid, if a similar mishap occured in canada, how would people deal with it. Canada has been known to unknowingly harbor terrorists.

OH gee whiz; really. Do you think any country is 100% free of possible terrorists ???

Just remember who was "harbouring" the terrorist that blew up the WTC; in fact those terrorists learned to fly planes within that country (USA)

Timothy McVeigh; home grown American terrorists; a returnee from the first gulf war; will this invasion in Iraq send home more persons with terroristic tendencies.

I get tired of this dumb remarks that try to make Canada look less secure from terrorist activity than does our southern neighbour. It is straight BS.

If we have some catastrophy here Canadians will deal with it quite well. I would expect help world wide just as we have sent help world wide.

[caesar]

Good question. Lessons of WWII evolved the US into what it is today. Americans had the attitude that is was Europe's problem initially, and later realized that tyrants need to be stopped early before they spread their cancer. My friend, especially at that stage, Canada WAS pretty much Britain, so Canadian involvement was almost required 

The USA only entered the war in retaliation for being attacked.

Canadians VOLUNTEERED to join the fight in World War II; many were lying about their age to join before they were of an age to do so.

Canadians may have been British subjects but we made our own decisions in Canada. We had our own military forces.

[caesar]

Germany invaded Poland on September 1, 1939. On September 10, the Canadian parliament formally declared war. King said at that time, "We take this stand on our own, not in any colonial attitude of mind."

[Pateris]

a little history lesson...

During the Second World War, Canada played a relatively significant role considering the then small population of 11 million. However, this role was dwarfed by the involvement of the primary combatants.

The United States supplied 75% of the troops on the ground in Western Europe from June 1944 to May 1945. Britain, Canada, the Free French and Poles provided the remainder in roughly that order. The United States also provided about 85% of the equipment. Consider that at this same time they were fighting the Japanese essentially alone.

Admittedly, Canada did provide almost half of the escorts for the convoys across the atlantic.

Of course, the real work of defeating Nazi Germany was done by our friends in the east. By the time of D-Day Germany was already doomed due to the Russian advance.

Everytime we commemorate D-Day and talk about the end of the war we should pause and think of Stalingrad, Kursk and the Siege of Leningrad.

The Second World War was won primary by American industrial capacity and Russian blood.

[Guest eureka]

Where did you study history?

[Guest eureka]

As V-E Day came, Allied forces in Western Europe consisted of 4 ½ million men, including 9 armies (5 of them American--one of which, the Fifteenth, saw action only at the last), 23 corps, 91 divisions (61 of them American), 6 tactical air commands (4 American), and 2 strategic air forces (1 American). The Allies had 28,000 combat aircraft, of which 14,845 were American, and they had brought into Western Europe more than 970,000 vehicles and 18 million tons of supplies. At the same time they were achieving final victory in Italy with 18 divisions (7 of them American.

Bear in mind, too that many of the Americans arrived after June 1944. Also, Operation Overlord had 195,000 Sailors involved, of whom 79% were British and Canadian and 16.5% American. The British, Canadian and others were there all the time; not just at the end.

This is in no way to downgrade the American contribution, but it might serve to provide a better perspective.

The invasion in the South of France was almost exclusively American.

[Pateris]

Eureka,

I never studied history in a university, but I am well read on the subject.

My data was based on the average of the land forces in Europe between June 1944 and May 1945. Not the numbers at the very beginning or very end. Also, as VE Day approached, the americans (who by your numbers were 67% of the land divisions), were already withdrawing troops to send to the Pacific since it was clear the Germans were already beaten.

15000 of the 28000 aircraft were American flagged. What about American-built? It may have had a British or Canadian pilot, but a lot of those planes were built in the USA, or out of American steel and aluminum...

And the entire Allied armies in the west ran on American oil for the most part.

And of the course the American's couldn't have their full navy in Europe - it was BUSY IN THE PACIFIC.

[caesar]

I never studied history in a university, but I am well read on the subject.

Your figures may be correct but your "editorial" is opinion only; not history.

The Original combatants including Britain and Canada played a bigger role in WWII than the Americans. We were fighting for years before the Americans reluctantly joined the effort after being attacked themselves. Our troops werewearing down the Nazi war machine. The Americans were a big help but were more like fresh troops to aid the cause.

[Guest eureka]

Look at the figures again: they do not support your conclusion. Equipment! The total of serving military was about 8 million (American). America in that period, produced approximately 6 million rifles. There were no a heck of a lot to spare for others were there. I can give you a lot more on the equipment front!

Do you really think that Britain, on a war footing for years, and with a productive capacity that was still not that far from America's, was consentrating all its efforts on making films for the post war market?

[Pateris]

Caesar:

Our troops werewearing down the Nazi war machine.

Before the American's came in? Ok, what were "our troops (meaning Britain and Canada I assume) doing before the American's entered the war in December 1941...

Well, we fled Europe at Dunkirk ahead of the advancing German army. Then we sat on Britain until the American's came to help. Oh, the British, Indians and Australians did some fighting in North Africa in 1940 and 41. And the RAF pilots tried very hard to stop the German war machine from bombing England into submission (successfully, yes).

But "wearing down the Nazi war machine"? Very funny. The Nazi war machine in 1941 was pretty much at it's peak from then until the fall of 1942 at Stalingrad.

[Black Dog]

Freedom Posted: Jan 7 2005, 08:59 PM

I'll try to not be bashful, but justify why the US does what it does.

You'd be a lot more convincing if you dispensed with the exceptionalist American mythos you drape yourself in. It's bad enough to see so many fictions at once, but to think that such rubbish is sold and purchased wholesale by the American people: well, its scary.

Americans had to fight in WWII and end NAZISM so that all (and very much Canada could have its freedom).

As some have pointed out (and historians agree) the Soviets were the biggest contributors to the Nazi's defeat (70 per cent of German war casualties were from the Eastern front)

The brillance of Ronald Reagan eventually sent USSR into demise and saved Canada from Geographically being the battleground of 2 nuclear armed countries.

Brilliance? The Soviet Union, accorcding to U.S. intelligence estimates going back as far as the mid '70s, was unsutainable, wracked with economic chaos and internal dischord. What Reagan did was to take a decaying, failed Soviet state and whip up fear of the non-existent threat for the purpose of retaining political power.

Freedom comes at a cost, and Canada never really had to pay for it, so Canada doesn't know. Americans know, and its their know how that has allowed North america to be free.

So what is that cost you keep talking about? Is it a dollar? 5 bucks? $800 billion?

Canada doesn't understand that if it weren't for the Americans, that its own military capabilities are so pre-historic, outdated and lacklustre and its borders so fragile, that it wouldn't take much for someone LIKE saddam to force his will.

Yes because Saddam was oh-so close to coming over the North Pole....

Canada is a enormous, geographically isolated nation. We just don't face very many threats.

Americans may be self-centered and not know world geography as much as Canadians but they understand that sacrifice is a part of freedom and that dictators and tyrants need to be stopped in a hurry.

Of course this is completely undermined by American history, which shows that the U.S. is happy supporting dictators or undermining democracy when it suits its purposes to do so.

People in Canada do not proudly display the mapleaf as much as Americans, and in that much abundance.

Personally I find vulgar displays of nationalism to be, at best, tacky. Most Canadians would probably agree.

The union of all the provinces and territories is fragile, probably the most fragile in the free world. every province has its own identity, and about half are willing to opt out of the confederation.

Half? Who? Quebec, where separation has been bandied about for decades, but has yet to come to fruition? Alberta, where less than 10 per cent of the population supports soverignty? Who else?

There isn't any event or sacrifice that ALL canadians can be proud of enough to put them together as one people sharing a common goal, and that is completely different south of the border.

Plenty of Canadians would probably cite the '72 series as Canada's moment. I'm glad I live in a country where we can feel connected by something as harmles as sport, rather than a collective taste for bloodshed.

political prisoners are no longer killed

Except by Americans...

Fresh horrors at Gitmo

afghan women are free.

Afghan women no better off.

[Guest eureka]

Pateri!

I have treated you with some amusement thus far - perhaps a little condescension. However, I find nothing funny about your last effort. It is an insult to the millions who fought and the hundreds of thousands who died to make it safe for you to mouth such filth.