Crime in Canada seems to align with natives

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Why not ?  Who IS your problem in Canada ?  Poor people ?  Children ?  Maritimers ?

2. They need to be able to help themselves economically.  They need omething to build on.

3. Well, you don't want to help them anyway.  Why don't you just propose killing them all ?  In either case, we don't have anything to discuss.

 

If someone is in immediate distress, medical emergency, being victimized by thuggery, what have you; acute,  incidental, emerging situation, I will render aid to a Canadian, or anybody else, foreigners too., but in terms of political "prioritization"? Nah, fuck that,, I don't do that.  I am autonomous from the state, free man in a free country, I am not the keeper of Canadian sob story cases. 

Moreover, everybody in Canada has a sob story, and their hand out for taxpayer funded largess therein.   Like I said, that's the Canadian scam, people in this country have been indoctrinated to think that the government is responsible for everybody all the time, particularly as to their "jobs, jobs jobs." But as this not a Communist country quite yet, that ain't actually so, the role of government is not actually to be the job mommie for every sob story case that comes along.

Lots of people need something to build on, but it's not actually my job, nor the role of the state, never mind that its a fools errand, even I wanted the government to continue the over 150 years of  paternalistic treatment of  the Indians as helpless children, which is very reason they are dysfunctional now, it doesn't work, the Indians aren't going to get anywhere waiting for that, been a 150 years, time to stop the misguided  Victorian era do gooderism, its actually done the the Indians grave harm at the strategic level.  And yet the white guilt Lefty nonsense blubberers cant seem to stop themselves.

Now,  as to killing them all?  Well, if it was a binary choice, you and your ilk keep scamming me?  Robbing me to pay Indian Paul on the Res?  I don't think mass murder is warranted, none the less, you and the Indians you claim to represent will be making an enemy of me and millions like me, and if it ever came violent conflict, I could see some indians getting shot in that paradigm.

[Michael Hardner]

1 minute ago, Dougie93 said:

1. Nah, fuck that,, I don't do that.  I am autonomous from the state, free man in a free country, I am not the keeper of Canadian sob story cases. 

2. Moreover, everybody in Canada has a sob story, and their hand out for taxpayer funded largess therein.   Like I said, that's the Canadian scam, people in this country have been indoctrinated to think that the government is responsible for everybody all the time, particularly as to their "jobs, jobs jobs."  But as this not a Communist country quite yet, that ain't actually so, the role of government is not actually to be the job mommie for every sob story case that comes along.

3.  Lots of people need something to build on, but it's not actually my job, nor the role of the state, never mind that its a fools errand, even I wanted the government to continue the over 150 years of  paternalistic treatment of  the Indians as helpless children, which is very reason they are dysfunctional now, it doesn't work, the Indians aren't going to get anywhere waiting for that, been a 150 years, time to stop the misguided  Victorian era do gooderism, its actually done the the Indians grave harm at the strategic level.  And yet the white guilt Lefty nonsense blubberers cant seem to stop themselves.

4.  Now,  as to killing them all?  Well, if it was a binary choice, you and your ilk keep scamming me?  Robbing me to pay Indian Paul on the Res?  I don't think mass murder is warranted, none the less, you and the Indians you claim to represent will be making an enemy of me and millions like me, and if it ever came violent conflict, I could see some indians getting shot in that paradigm.

1. You are delusional.  You pay taxes and the collective decides what to do with it.  We will decide to fund a Pride Parade, missiles, and Israel.  Your 'free man' tag is an empty nickname, but enjoy it.

2. Sure.  There's not much controversial in what you have written here.

3. Ok, well the people of Canada decide what the government's role should be.  They do think that the government should help people.  Conservatives could help modify that vision, IMO, to explain that investing in people doesn't mean hand-outs but that's a tall order I guess.

4. You turned my offer of guilt-free genocide into a justified war, which wasn't my intention.  You don't care about them and have said as much.  But do you think they deserve equal rights ?  

[Dougie93]

Bear in mind, this does not mean I am opposed to honoring the treaty obligations of the British Crown, I advocate for returning vast tracks of Crown land to the Indians as per the standing agreements.  But that land doesn't come with a big NDP boondoggle government hand out festival on top. They get the land, and anything else they are entitled to as per the treaty, but so far as I know, the British Crown never signed a treaty guaranteeing them government jobs for life.

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. You are delusional.  You pay taxes and the collective decides what to do with it.  We will decide to fund a Pride Parade, missiles, and Israel.  Your 'free man' tag is an empty nickname, but enjoy it.

2. Sure.  There's not much controversial in what you have written here.

3. Ok, well the people of Canada decide what the government's role should be.  They do think that the government should help people.  Conservatives could help modify that vision, IMO, to explain that investing in people doesn't mean hand-outs but that's a tall order I guess.

4. You turned my offer of guilt-free genocide into a justified war, which wasn't my intention.  You don't care about them and have said as much.  But do you think they deserve equal rights ?  

Once my taxes are paid, my obligation to the state, short of national security issues, is fulfilled.  "You" can do whatever "you" want with that money, but the government ain't gonna be giving much to the Indians, if the government was the answer to the Indians problems, they wouldn't have any after 150 years.  After 150 years of being treated as wards of the state, you'd think the Indians would be wary of entering into these sorts of arrangements.

For over 150 years, the people of Canada has decided that Indians ain't that high on their list of priorities, if you and the Indians think that's going to change, you and them are typically deluded Cantards.  It's really only you tho, the Indians aren't so naive.

 

In terms of equal rights, they actually have their own sovereign  governments as per the treaties, the agreement therein includes the agreement for me not to tell them how to run their governments for them nor tell them what their rights are on their land.

Again, I'm not a paternalistic do gooder, as the road to hell is paved with good intentions, particularly where the British Crown is concerned.  The Indians know.

[Dougie93]

Oh, and as for the genocidal war, you invoked that not I, that being said, I was an infantryman by trade, and as such state sanctioned mass murder on behalf of the British Crown was technically my job description,  but as I say, I don't foresee genocidal war, as that is prohibited by national and international law and the laws of armed conflict, but, if they do decide to go Oka all over again, that's a dangerous game which I would caution them against.  Go to that well too many times, some people gonna get shot eventually. It is what it is, but that's how it is, realpolitik.

[Michael Hardner]

21 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

1. Once my taxes are paid, my obligation to the state, short of national security issues, is fulfilled.  "You" can do whatever "you" want with that money, but the government ain't gonna be giving much to the Indians, if the government was the answer to the Indians problems, they wouldn't have any after 150 years.  After 150 years of being treated as wards of the state, you'd think the Indians would be wary of entering into these sorts of arrangements.

2. For over 150 years, the people of Canada has decided that Indians ain't that high on their list of priorities, if you and the Indians think that's going to change, you and them are typically deluded Cantards.  It's really only you tho, the Indians aren't so naive.  In terms of equal rights, they actually have their own sovereign  governments as per the treaties, the agreement therein includes the agreement for me not to tell them how to run their governments for them nor tell them what their rights are on their land.

3. Again, I'm not a paternalistic do gooder, as the road to hell is paved with good intentions, particularly where the British Crown is concerned.  The Indians know.

1. I think they're probably wary of it.  'Government is the answer' is vague enough to encompass government interning them or giving them $100K a year each.  The devil is in the details.

2. I think if something started to work people would get behind it.

3. But you're not a 'free man' to decide how the collective will deal with problems.  Rant on, though.

 

[Argus]

3 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

I fail to see how this is my problem.  Lawless indians running amok?  Isn't that what Mounties are for?

 

We don't have many of them. They cost too much money.

[Argus]

3 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

1. Wait, what?  Why is that, again?  I'm not the keeper of the Indians, fuck the Indians,  they're not my problem.

Do you pay taxes? Do you receive government services?

If you pay taxes it's your problem, because the reservation system is not suited for economic survivability. Every hamlet, every village, every town and city in Canada is located where it is because there's an economic reason for it to be there. If that economic reason goes away, the town dies. But the reserves have no economic reason to exist, which means the taxpayer pays for everything.

And even if you're not a taxpayer, the billions that are spent on the reserves take away from other services government could offer.

[turningrite]

46 minutes ago, Argus said:

Do you pay taxes? Do you receive government services?

If you pay taxes it's your problem, because the reservation system is not suited for economic survivability. Every hamlet, every village, every town and city in Canada is located where it is because there's an economic reason for it to be there. If that economic reason goes away, the town dies. But the reserves have no economic reason to exist, which means the taxpayer pays for everything.

And even if you're not a taxpayer, the billions that are spent on the reserves take away from other services government could offer.

I understand your point about the reserve or reservation system not being economically viable - well, at least in most cases because some reserves are actually economically sustainable. However, indigenous Canadians didn't invent this system. It was essentially imposed on them in the 18th century in return for Britain's assertion of crown sovereignty over indigenous lands. Essentially, it was a sale price in which one party, the British, unilaterally set the terms of sale. The general interpretation is that Royal Proclamation of 1763 stipulates that in return for the assertion of crown sovereignty the British rulers (and their successors) assumed a fiduciary duty to provide for the material needs of the indigenous populations whose lands were, effectively, confiscated as well as an obligation to negotiate treaty rights, including land rights, with indigenous populations.

Of course, some aspects of the Proclamation, including that barring colonization west of the American Appalachians, in the Ohio Valley, were fairly swiftly ignored. The issue at stake now is whether a better system can be devised or, instead, how we can more effectively fund and humanely administer what many (often fairly) see as a counterproductive and paternalistic welfare model. Whatever system evolves must emerge with the cooperation and assent of indigenous peoples because indigenous rights as well as the government's fiduciary duties are stipulated in the Canadian constitution, which explicitly subsumes the Proclamation. Essentially, these were, and remain, terms of occupation and sale that can't at this point be unilaterally discarded even though in a historical context we haven't been particularly good at upholding our side of the bargain.

Edited January 5, 2019 by turningrite

[Argus]

10 minutes ago, turningrite said:

I understand your point about the reserve or reservation system not being economically viable - well, at least in most cases because some reserves are actually economically sustainable. However, indigenous Canadians didn't invent this system.

I realize that. But it's a product of a bygone era when no one imagined 'savages' could possibly live among us and wildly out of place today.

10 minutes ago, turningrite said:

The issue at stake now is whether a better system can be devised or, instead, how we continue to fund and administer what many (often fairly) see as a counterproductive and paternalistic welfare model to address indigenous needs. Whatever system evolves must emerge with the cooperation and assent of indigenous peoples because indigenous rights as well as the government's fiduciary duties are stipulated in the Canadian constitution, which explicitly subsumes the Proclamation.

The problem is if you accept that these 600 mostly small villages of a few hundred people are 'nations' you're never going to get agreement on anything other than paying them more money - which their chiefs will use as they wish, often to enrich themselves. We need to gain the agreement of a few of them to move them nearer urban centres. This will include a lot of help in adjusting and skills training. Once we've got the process working we basically tell the others to move whether they like it or not.

There is this bizarre notion that the natives are these stone age peoples who can't handle life in the modern age, who couldn't survive in urban centres. This completely ignores the fact that hundreds of thousands of people from backward third world nations and cultures come to Canada every damn year and most of them survive just fine.

[turningrite]

1 minute ago, Argus said:

I realize that. But it's a product of a bygone era when no one imagined 'savages' could possibly live among us and wildly out of place today.

The problem is if you accept that these 600 mostly small villages of a few hundred people are 'nations' you're never going to get agreement on anything other than paying them more money - which their chiefs will use as they wish, often to enrich themselves. We need to gain the agreement of a few of them to move them nearer urban centres. This will include a lot of help in adjusting and skills training. Once we've got the process working we basically tell the others to move whether they like it or not.

There is this bizarre notion that the natives are these stone age peoples who can't handle life in the modern age, who couldn't survive in urban centres. This completely ignores the fact that hundreds of thousands of people from backward third world nations and cultures come to Canada every damn year and most of them survive just fine.

Much of what you say may be correct from a rational perspective, however it's somewhat beside the point as indigenous Canadians do have legitimate rights that are clearly and explicitly  incorporated into the constitution. Would you simply cede your right to, say, your home, without demanding fair market value in return? Indigenous rights, as currently stipulated in law, are essentially immutable and permanent, which gives indigenous Canadians a lot of bargaining power. Some say they want to have their cake and eat it too, and to some extent this may be true, but wouldn't you as well if you were in their shoes? And the treatment accorded them in this country hasn't always been fair or even humane. So, a negotiated balance will have to be found but we're not in a position to unilaterally dictate the terms.

[montgomery]

Blaming our native people for problems the white population created for them is racism. It's something that more and more Canadians allow themselves to express openly now since the Trump example in that country to our south. Just another reason why Canada must diversify our trade relations away from 'it'. 

Disgusting!

[Dougie93]

3 hours ago, Argus said:

We don't have many of them. They cost too much money.

The huge number of Indians in jail would seem to indicate otherwise, the Mounties seem to be getting it done.   In terms of RCMP costs, roughly $100 million per year is actually quite an austere budget, the Canadian military could blow that kind of dough in an afternoon.

[Argus]

3 hours ago, turningrite said:

Much of what you say may be correct from a rational perspective, however it's somewhat beside the point as indigenous Canadians do have legitimate rights that are clearly and explicitly  incorporated into the constitution. Would you simply cede your right to, say, your home, without demanding fair market value in return? Indigenous rights, as currently stipulated in law, are essentially immutable and permanent, which gives indigenous Canadians a lot of bargaining power. Some say they want to have their cake and eat it too, and to some extent this may be true, but wouldn't you as well if you were in their shoes? And the treatment accorded them in this country hasn't always been fair or even humane. So, a negotiated balance will have to be found but we're not in a position to unilaterally dictate the terms.

I have no respect for the constitution. Tear it up, redo it, change it, or override it. I'm not talking about simply taking the reserves away and not giving the natives something in compensation, btw. The sort of thing I'm talking about would be expensive, but we either pay now or we pay through generations of funding these rural slums. And that's to say nothing of the wasted human potential of all those people out there.

[Argus]

54 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

The huge number of Indians in jail would seem to indicate otherwise, the Mounties seem to be getting it done.   In terms of RCMP costs, roughly $100 million per year is actually quite an austere budget, the Canadian military could blow that kind of dough in an afternoon.

Canada has one of the lowest police per population rates in the western world, considerably lower than our allies, even the 'peaceful' ones in Europe. On the other hand, we have the best paid police on the planet.

[Michael Hardner]

5 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

Nothing the Canadian government touches is ever going to work, the Government of Canada is inherently corrupt incompetent and dysfunctional, everything they touch turns to shit.  Go on with your absurd naivete though.

Your arguments are unusual in that they're slathered with the usual hyperbolic Rightist ranch dressing and yet you seem to have facts.  I like it.

Yes, though, your post is still hyperbolic.  And even if the government is incompetent and mediocre no one is presenting an attractive anarchocapitalist alternative that is realistic.

My main worry is that your next post will do just that.

[Dougie93]

27 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Your arguments are unusual in that they're slathered with the usual hyperbolic Rightist ranch dressing and yet you seem to have facts.  I like it.

Yes, though, your post is still hyperbolic.  And even if the government is incompetent and mediocre no one is presenting an attractive anarchocapitalist alternative that is realistic.

My main worry is that your next post will do just that.

Well, I am a Right Wing Nutjob, that's true, mea culpa, but that's no crime where I come from,  or at least not as of yet.  Wouldn't shock me if the Cultural Marxists who have seized control of Canada by way of the media and academia would try to criminalize me for my political views.

[Hates politicians]

6 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

Oh, and by the way, it's not just the breathtakingly corrupt and dysfunctional  Canadian government we are dealing with here, because newsflash; Indians are not actually Canadians, each "First Nation" has its own government, and most of those governments are so corrupt, they resemble outlaw biker gangs more than they resemble governments.

If the Canadian government was a person, you would diagnose that person as being a psychopath, then you take that homicidal monstrosity,  and have it do business with what are in many cases effective micro mafia states?  Recipe for disaster, every single time.

The Indians are caught in a trap between these two psychopathic governing bodies, which is why they get fucked coming and going, by our government, and theirs.  Thus why I wouldn't trust government if I were them, which they don't, but its not like they actually have anymore control over their crazy homicidal governments than we have over ours.

Well if the indians are getting fucked I want to be one. Everything would be given to me. I'd never have to work another day in my life for anything.

[Hates politicians]

5 hours ago, montgomery said:

Blaming our native people for problems the white population created for them is racism. It's something that more and more Canadians allow themselves to express openly now since the Trump example in that country to our south. Just another reason why Canada must diversify our trade relations away from 'it'. 

Disgusting!

Blame whitey, typical indian response

[Hates politicians]

6 hours ago, Argus said:

Do you pay taxes? Do you receive government services?

If you pay taxes it's your problem, because the reservation system is not suited for economic survivability. Every hamlet, every village, every town and city in Canada is located where it is because there's an economic reason for it to be there. If that economic reason goes away, the town dies. But the reserves have no economic reason to exist, which means the taxpayer pays for everything.

And even if you're not a taxpayer, the billions that are spent on the reserves take away from other services government could offer.

GET RID OF THE RESRVES. I'm sick of paying for them

[Hates politicians]

8 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Why not ?  Who IS your problem in Canada ?  Poor people ?  Children ?  Maritimers ?

2. They need to be able to help themselves economically.  They need omething to build on.

3. Well, you don't want to help them anyway.  Why don't you just propose killing them all ?  In either case, we don't have anything to discuss.

 

Number 3 good idea.

[Hates politicians]

9 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

1. Wait, what?  Why is that, again?  I'm not the keeper of the Indians, fuck the Indians,  they're not my problem.

2. They seem to making their own decisions just fine, and the ones who are deciding to commit crimes are ending up in jail, no interference from me at all.

There ya go, done and done.  Indians being prioritized by the state for taking the decision to commit crimes of their own free will.   Problem solved.

WEll said

[Dougie93]

The problem is this; because the "First Nations" are technically sovereign, the government cannot control the money once they hand it over,  they can give it to the Indian "governments", or not, but the Indians will not tolerate the wypipo telling them how to run their affairs on their land, so the Indian "governments" basically just pocket the money and it never actually trickles down to the rest.   Wash, rinse,  repeat for 150 years, and we continue to spin our wheels with this game.

Edited January 5, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

And for people who have some delusions about enforced accountability here, bear in mind, there's no pushing the Indians around, the government is afraid of the Indians not the other way round,  as ultimately, the indians are de facto armed paramilitaries who cannot be intimidated.  If you're gonna go in and try to force them to do something, that could very likely require the army, and even then, the Indians ain't scared of the army, so basically they're just holding the government for ransom.

The Indians basically called the government's bluff at Oka in 1990, and the politicians have been afraid to confront them ever since.

Edited January 5, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

35 minutes ago, Hates politicians said:

Number 3 good idea.

You don't got the troops, 20,000 or so Canadian troops would be overwhelmed in any sort of widespread confrontation, would only take a small number of Indians fucking with us from coast to coast to grind things rapidly to a halt, the Canadian Army would be flailing in the face of it, too much territory to cover, too much complex terrain for them to operate from,  not enough boots to put on the ground, the Indians could Taliban the governments shit with ease.