Las Vegas music festival attack. Is it a British response to US ?

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, -TSS- said:

Regarding the title of the thread: What does Britain have to do with the Las Vegas-shootings?

 

7 minutes ago, Altai said:

You should pay tax for each breath you take in the atmosphere.

In other words, nothing whatsoever...

[ReeferMadness]

On 10/3/2017 at 4:30 AM, Boges said:

I'm pretty sure having that  many guns kitted to go fully auto is already illegal. 

Is it?   I'm not an expert on US gun law but I didn't read anything in the wake of the shooting that indicated it would be illegal to own the arsenal he had.  Certainly, there was (and still is) no ban on bump stocks (which is what he used to make his weapons automatic).

[Derek 2.0]

9 hours ago, ReeferMadness said:

that indicated it would be illegal to own the arsenal he had.

You're right, the firearms he had were all legal in the majority of the states, New Zealand and Canada.

 

9 hours ago, ReeferMadness said:

no ban on bump stocks (which is what he used to make his weapons automatic).

 

"Bump stocks" don't make a gun "automatic" anymore than racing stripes and a spoiler make an '87 Honda Civic an F1 car............ suggested public safety aspects aside, they should be taken off the market under the auspice of consumer (end user) safety and liability.......the things are idiotic and dangerous to users and anyone around them.

At the end of the day, BATF could take them off the market sans any legislation.

 

 

[Omni]

26 minutes ago, Derek 2.0 said:

Bump stocks" don't make a gun "automatic"

Ah, yes they do. Automatic weapons are not legal in the US other than for military. However you can buy an AR 15, and the bump stock kit in gun stores in many states. They can't install it, bu they can show you how to if you're not sure. Then all you  need is to book a room in Vegas.

[eyeball]

5 hours ago, Derek 2.0 said:

"Bump stocks" don't make a gun "automatic" anymore than racing stripes and a spoiler make an '87 Honda Civic an F1 car............ suggested public safety aspects aside, they should be taken off the market under the auspice of consumer (end user) safety and liability.......the things are idiotic and dangerous to users and anyone around them.

At the end of the day, BATF could take them off the market sans any legislation.

Then why don't they?

[Derek 2.0]

9 hours ago, Omni said:

Automatic weapons are not legal in the US other than for military.

Automatic weapons are perfectly legal in class III States with a tax stamp.......

 

9 hours ago, Omni said:

Ah, yes they do.

 

No they don't......Bump stocks don't alter a firearms action in anyway whatsoever, hence a bump stock doesn't make a semi-automatic a select fire/automatic firearm. 

[Omni]

6 minutes ago, Derek 2.0 said:

Automatic weapons are perfectly legal in class III States with a tax stamp.......

 

 

No they don't......Bump stocks don't alter a firearms action in anyway whatsoever, hence a bump stock doesn't make a semi-automatic a select fire/automatic firearm. 

With the bump stock in place on the weapon of someone who knows how to use it, you have pretty much an automatic weapon in terms of number of rounds that can be fired in a given time. And yes, when you remove the bump stock the weapon reverts to semi.

[Derek 2.0]

3 hours ago, eyeball said:

Then why don't they?

 

Good question.......the ATF has reviewed them numerous times and doesn't feel they need to be taken off the market or further regulated under regulations pertaining to laws associated with actual automatic firearms.....even after the Las Vegas shooting, the NRA called on the ATF to review their previous reviews.......

[Derek 2.0]

1 minute ago, Omni said:

With the bump stock in place on the weapon of someone who knows how to use it, you have pretty much an automatic weapon in terms of number of rounds that can be fired in a given time. And yes, when you remove the bump stock the weapon reverts to semi.

 

Ahhh no......bump stocks (and trigger cranks) don't make a semi-automatic "pretty much an automatic"......big difference......bump stocks increase a firearms rate of fire, a firearm designed to cycle with human use (rate a person can pull a trigger).......bump stocks are akin to putting a cement block on a car's gas pedal and calling it a race car.  

[Omni]

2 minutes ago, Derek 2.0 said:

 

Ahhh no......bump stocks (and trigger cranks) don't make a semi-automatic "pretty much an automatic"......big difference......bump stocks increase a firearms rate of fire, a firearm designed to cycle with human use (rate a person can pull a trigger).......bump stocks are akin to putting a cement block on a car's gas pedal and calling it a race car.  

Not really a very good comparison. A bump stock in trained hands can fire almost the same number of rounds as a full automatic in the same time frame. The fact that the trigger gets pulled at each round really doesn't matter does it. Especially if you're on the receiving end such as in Vegas.

[Derek 2.0]

10 minutes ago, Omni said:

Not really a very good comparison. A bump stock in trained hands can fire almost the same number of rounds as a full automatic in the same time frame.

 

Not even close.....an AR-15 has a sustained rate of fire of ~300 rounds a minute, the same AR with a bump stock will be ~400-500 rounds a minute.....an actual M-16 select fire automatic has a rate of fire of over 900 rounds a minute......unlike the AR though, an M-16 (or any other automatic) has a firing pin, bolt carrier, sear/springs etc designed to tolerate said rate of fire....increasing a gun's rate of fire, to what it wasn't intended to operate at, at best will wear the firearm out faster, at worse, the operator will get a bolt carrier buried into his forehead after the gun stovepipes a round and the cartridges psi blows-up the guns receiver in the operator's hand with said operators head inches from such a failure.

"Trained hands" don't operate unsafe firearms.......full stop.

 

Quote

The fact that the trigger gets pulled at each round really doesn't matter does it. Especially if you're on the receiving end such as in Vegas.

 

Charles Whitman killed and injured dozens with a four-shot bolt action deer rifle........ "trained hands" (the person committing the act) and the type of firearm used is the disconnect here, but doesn't really mater......so why do people like you keep bringing it up? 

 

 

[Omni]

13 minutes ago, Derek 2.0 said:

Not even close..

Don't know what you call close, but it took the Vegas shooter using a bump stock about 3 seconds less to fire 100 rounds than you can with a fully automatic. 

[Derek 2.0]

8 minutes ago, Omni said:

Don't know what you call close, but it took the Vegas shooter using a bump stock about 3 seconds less to fire 100 rounds than you can with a fully automatic. 

 

Ahhh no.....firing an AR at over ~400 rounds cyclic a minute will melt the gas tube......the Vegas shooter fired ~1200 rounds over ~10 minutes.....or about ~120 rounds a minute (a fraction of what an automatic could fire), which equates to four mag changes a minute for an AR with standard capacity mags.......

 

Hence the claim that a bump stock makes a semi-automatic an automatic is wrong.....an actual automatic firearm has a far greater actual sustained rate of fire.....A Russian RPK can empty its 75 round drum in under 2 seconds ........the Vegas shooters firearms, if fired at a similar rate, would be melted steel if they hadn't blown up already.

 

So your claim that Bump-fire stocks make a semi-automatic an automatic firearm is wrong.....and is why the BATF doesn't consider them worthy of being regulated like an actual automatic firearm.

[Omni]

1 minute ago, Derek 2.0 said:

 

Ahhh no.....firing an AR at over ~400 rounds cyclic a minute will melt the gas tube......the Vegas shooter fired ~1200 rounds over ~10 minutes.....or about ~120 rounds a minute (a fraction of what an automatic could fire), which equates to four mag changes a minute for an AR with standard capacity mags.......

 

Hence the claim that a bump stock makes a semi-automatic an automatic is wrong.....an actual automatic firearm has a far greater actual sustained rate of fire.....A Russian RPK can empty its 75 round drum in under 2 seconds ........the Vegas shooters firearms, if fired at a similar rate, would be melted steel if they hadn't blown up already.

 

So your claim that Bump-fire stocks make a semi-automatic an automatic firearm is wrong.....and is why the BATF doesn't consider them worthy of being regulated like an actual automatic firearm.

If you do the actual math, the Vegas shooter was firing around 540 rounds as opposed to around 780 you can get from a fully automatic. Obviously he was smart enough to take more than one gun with him so as not to melt down the barrel. I know how hot an AR-15 can get. I have a scar on my left hand to prove it.

[Derek 2.0]

2 minutes ago, Omni said:

If you do the actual math, the Vegas shooter was firing around 540 rounds as opposed to around 780 you can get from a fully automatic. 

I just did the actual math above for you.......he fired ~1200 rounds total.....over 10 minutes 

[Omni]

Just now, Derek 2.0 said:

I just did the actual math above for you.......he fired ~1200 rounds total.....over 10 minutes 

But he did it with a choice of 23 weapons that were found in the suite. None were full auto but apparently only one had a bump stock. And yep, it probably got hot. Hence the arsenal. The fire rate was calculated from sound on video.

[Derek 2.0]

Just now, Omni said:

But he did it with a choice of 23 weapons that were found in the suite. None were full auto but apparently only one had a bump stock. And yep, it probably got hot. Hence the arsenal. The fire rate was calculated from sound on video.

 

Ahh no........

The actual timeline of the shooting and the number of rounds fired........rate of fire is calculated from actual rounds fired over a measure of time........not "sounds" 

[Omni]

Just now, Derek 2.0 said:

 

Ahh no........

The actual timeline of the shooting and the number of rounds fired........rate of fire is calculated from actual rounds fired over a measure of time........not "sounds" 

Ahh, yes. Just like you can determine the speed of an aircraft (such as one flying into the WTC) from video, you can determine number of rounds fired from the audio of same.

[Derek 2.0]

Just now, Omni said:

Ahh, yes. Just like you can determine the speed of an aircraft (such as one flying into the WTC) from video, you can determine number of rounds fired from the audio of same.

 

1 minute ago, Omni said:

you can determine number of rounds fired from the audio of same.

 

 

You realize.......gunfire echos in built-up areas?

 

I just provided the number of rounds fired and the timeline.....as stated by the police....this is very basic math.

[Omni]

3 minutes ago, Derek 2.0 said:

 

 

 

You realize.......gunfire echos in built-up areas?

 

I just provided the number of rounds fired and the timeline.....as stated by the police....this is very basic math.

And Vegas man was shooting ~540 RPM for a short portion of time with his bump stock.

[Argus]

6 hours ago, Derek 2.0 said:

Automatic weapons are perfectly legal in class III States with a tax stamp.......

 

 

No they don't......Bump stocks don't alter a firearms action in anyway whatsoever, hence a bump stock doesn't make a semi-automatic a select fire/automatic firearm. 

This argument is inane and pointless. The bump stock makes the weapon fire as fast as an automatic. The Republicans are in power now and they'll probably soon make fully automatic weapons mandatory in every kindergarten and church. Then will come the inevitable backlash, a whopping big Democratic majority, and then, yes, national gun control laws more severe than the US has ever seen before and bans on all automatic weapons, assault-type weapons, etc. etc.

[Omni]

11 minutes ago, Argus said:

This argument is inane and pointless. The bump stock makes the weapon fire as fast as an automatic.

Not quite as fast, but close. And they are totally legal, simply because they cause your finger to pull the trigger for each shot.

[Flint]

Nonsense.