Venezuela??

[ZenOps]

As harsh as it sounds, people all around the world starve to death.  That one more country is slipping into it is not really all that newsworthy.

[capricorn]

32 minutes ago, ZenOps said:

As harsh as it sounds, people all around the world starve to death.  That one more country is slipping into it is not really all that newsworthy.

I think you need to do more research on the western world's reaction to events occurring in Venezuela.

[scribblet]

I don't think this is off topic.  Have you ever thought about what would happen if a western gov’t fell being replaced by a dictatorship?   Would anyone of us  be the person to order executions along with sending people to starve in concentration camps?  Wonder no more If you live in Britain,  One of those people would be the former Mayor of London Ken Livingstone.  I knew he was radical but he actually  said:

“One of the things that Chávez did when he came to power, he didn’t kill all the oligarchs. There was about 200 families who controlled about 80% of the wealth in Venezuela,” Livingstone told Talk Radio.

“He allowed them to live, to carry on. I suspect a lot of them are using their power and control over imports and exports to make it difficult and to undermine Maduro.” When pressed, Livingstone said he was “not in favour of killing anyone”.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/03/ken-livingstone-venezuela-crisis-hugo-chavez-oligarchs

[ZenOps]

If you read standard western media - its not really covered.  If you read things like ZeroHedge, then its overcovered.

Mind you, I haven't watched CNN in years.

Also:  Lets not forget that all immigrants who enter Canada must pledge allegiance to the Queen.  The day that the British crown gives the Koh-I-Noor back to India is the day that I say that imperial rule is done.

I believe Canada is now in the process of removing all value from circulating money as demanded by the Queen.  All dictatorships eventually end up with all the goods of value.  What started with confiscation of gold in 1933 (at $20 per ounce gold) silver in 1967, and is now finally ending with confiscation of copper pennies.

Canada cannot criticize on democratic freedoms, because if you ask me - we never really achieved it either.

 

Edited August 4, 2017 by ZenOps

[scribblet]

3 hours ago, ZenOps said:

..................I believe Canada is now in the process of removing all value from circulating money as demanded by the Queen.  All dictatorships eventually end up with all the goods of value.  What started with confiscation of gold in 1933 (at $20 per ounce gold) silver in 1967, and is now finally ending with confiscation of copper pennies.

Canada cannot criticize on democratic freedoms, because if you ask me - we never really achieved it either.

The Queen doesn't order Canada to do anything, she is simply a figurehead, part of our tradition.  

[Argus]

On 8/2/2017 at 8:59 PM, Michael Hardner said:

OK, clearly you fed me my lunch here.  I am stunned that someone running for leadership is trying this.  Colour me corrected and humbled.

Why are you surprised? If you professed a love of Hitler, and espoused Nazi ideological beliefs, even those a little removed from Nazis, you'd have zero hope of election here and no party would touch you. But the same anathema does not apply to extreme left beliefs.  You can profess a love of Castro and speak admiringly of Mao, and can spout much the same sort of ideological beliefs as Castro and Mao and Stalin did, and nobody will think you're evil. They might think you're stupid, or quaint, but nobody is going to get angry at you.  Even the anti-Zionist thing doesn't bother anyone, even though we all know those who are most zealously anti-Zionist are mostly antisemitic too.

[cannuck]

On 8/2/2017 at 0:10 PM, Michael Hardner said:

Just googled it. 1933, right ?  Were you intending on proving my point or just wasting time ?

The Magna Carta has been around since 1215, the US constitution was drafted in 1788.  i could go on, but pointing out the very obvious would be "wasting time".

BTW: the Regina Manifesto remained on the NDP website as their fundamental belief until it was quietly taken down a couple of years ago.  MUCH to the chagrin of the hard core party faithful.

Chavez just did what every aspiring Marxist party would do - and once they get there, the reality about socialist governments is that given the power to dispense privilege, absolute power corrupts absolutely.  Maduro just turned the heat up another notch.

BTW:  to all of your socialists out there:  remember how that Chairman Mao thing went down?   Yeah, over 100,000,000 citizens dead.   Careful what you wish for.

Oh, yeah, you/we are "different".   Read the Regina Manifesto and tell me that again.

Edited August 8, 2017 by cannuck

[cannuck]

On 8/5/2017 at 5:28 PM, Argus said:

Why are you surprised? If you professed a love of Hitler, and espoused Nazi ideological beliefs, even those a little removed from Nazis, you'd have zero hope of election here and no party would touch you. But the same anathema does not apply to extreme left beliefs.  You can profess a love of Castro and speak admiringly of Mao, and can spout much the same sort of ideological beliefs as Castro and Mao and Stalin did, and nobody will think you're evil. They might think you're stupid, or quaint, but nobody is going to get angry at you.  Even the anti-Zionist thing doesn't bother anyone, even though we all know those who are most zealously anti-Zionist are mostly antisemitic too.

Could not agree more...except that with Morgenstern ancestry and Cohen business partners, I am thoroughly anti-zionist but hardly anti-semite.

I should get an update from our Venezuelan associates when they come up to DC tomorrow.   Will see what I can find and post (could be restricted).

Edited August 8, 2017 by cannuck

[Altai]

This is quite familiar for me. If someones supported even created by US-Britain is trying to oppose government in a country, you can be sure that the government is doing something good for the country independently from US and Britain. 


Therefore, despite I have zero knowledge about Venezuela, I support Venezuelan government. 

Edited August 8, 2017 by Altai

[capricorn]

3 hours ago, Altai said:

This is quite familiar for me. If someones supported even created by US-Britain is trying to oppose government in a country, you can be sure that the government is doing something good for the country independently from US and Britain.

Am I correct that somewhere in there is a declaration that the US and Britain are responsible for the Venezuelan crisis.

Quote

Therefore, despite I have zero knowledge about Venezuela, I support Venezuelan government. 

 To get a clue, you could start here:

Quote

Venezuelan security forces have wielded excessive force to suppress protests, killing dozens, and have arbitrarily detained 5,000 people since April, including 1,000 still in custody, the United Nations human rights office said on Tuesday.

It called on the government of President Nicolas Maduro to rein in security forces and investigate alleged abuses, release people arbitrarily detained, and ensure the protection of the ousted Attorney-General Luisa Ortega.

---

"We are concerned that the situation in Venezuela is escalating and these human rights violations show no signs of abating," U.N. human rights spokeswoman Ravina Shamdasani told a news briefing in Geneva.

U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights Zeid Ra'ad al-Hussein said in a statement: "These violations have occurred amid the breakdown of the rule of law in Venezuela, with constant attacks by the Government against the National Assembly and the Attorney-General’s Office."

"The responsibility for the human rights violations we are recording lies at the highest levels of Government,” he added.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-politics-un-rights-idUSKBN1AO0YL?il=0

[cannuck]

On 8/2/2017 at 5:29 PM, Michael Hardner said:

So Trudeau wants to nationalize the oil industry ?  Paranoid nonsense.  

Never heard of Petro Canada??????   Trudeau DID nationalize a part of the industry.    The Sask NDP did as well.  HQ of most of Canada's oil companies were in Regina and Moose Jaw until the NDP nationalized much of it - to Calgary's delight.

[cannuck]

5 hours ago, Altai said:

This is quite familiar for me. If someones supported even created by US-Britain is trying to oppose government in a country, you can be sure that the government is doing something good for the country independently from US and Britain. 


Therefore, despite I have zero knowledge about Venezuela, I support Venezuelan government. 

Of course you have to support the Government of Venezuela.   Jailing any political opposition, killing many of them, rewriting the Constitution to make a "president for life" with dictatorial powers.  Replace everyone in state-controlled positions with party faithful. Blame the US for every problem to deflect attention from what human rights are being taken.  Sound familiar?

The difference between Venezuela using marxist/socialist platform vs. Erdogan using the Islamist one is that Chavez and then Maduro were able seize control of the resources of the country (about 95% of exports are petroleum - and Venezuela has the world's largest declared reserves) and fill the pockets of the judges, bureaucrats and most importantly the generals by raiding the treasure chest.  Erdogan did not learn from the Russians how to pull this stuff off, so the military bit him.

Maduro's plan to gain powers that Erdogan seeks will fail because he robbed so much of the value of the state, the people can't afford to eat or buy medicine.

[Altai]

1 hour ago, capricorn said:

Am I correct that somewhere in there is a declaration that the US and Britain are responsible for the Venezuelan crisis.

 To get a clue, you could start here:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-politics-un-rights-idUSKBN1AO0YL?il=0

So you offer me to read a British government and intelligence mouth to have an idea about Venezuela ?

[Altai]

16 minutes ago, cannuck said:

Of course you have to support the Government of Venezuela.   Jailing any political opposition, killing many of them, rewriting the Constitution to make a "president for life" with dictatorial powers.  Replace everyone in state-controlled positions with party faithful. Blame the US for every problem to deflect attention from what human rights are being taken.  Sound familiar?

The difference between Venezuela using marxist/socialist platform vs. Erdogan using the Islamist one is that Chavez and then Maduro were able seize control of the resources of the country (about 95% of exports are petroleum - and Venezuela has the world's largest declared reserves) and fill the pockets of the judges, bureaucrats and most importantly the generals by raiding the treasure chest.  Erdogan did not learn from the Russians how to pull this stuff off, so the military bit him.

Maduro's plan to gain powers that Erdogan seeks will fail because he robbed so much of the value of the state, the people can't afford to eat or buy medicine.

So then, why US and Britain are being disturbed by these countries of being ruled such bad ? Do you mean US and Britain want Venezuela to be developed more and more and this is why they want to kick current govt out of the game ? 

If the Venezuelan govt was bad, US and Britain would support them. This is what they want. They hate the current govt because if they gain enough power they wont allow US and Britain to be effective in Venezuelan politics.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Altai

[hot enough]

1 hour ago, capricorn said:

Am I correct that somewhere in there is a declaration that the US and Britain are responsible for the Venezuelan crisis.

The US is ALWAYS involved when there is any government that goes against US right wing fascist policies, capricorn. That's why the US has had a terrorist training camp in the USA since after WWII. This camp has trained all the top Latin American terrorists/brutal right wing dictators that the US has installed in Latin American countries since way back around 1898. 

Don't tell me that you don't know of this. You know of the tens of millions the US has slaughtered since WWII so how can you be so naive to think that they are not committing the same terrorist acts in Venezuela that they were convicted of doing to Nicaragua during the war criminal/US felon Reagan era. The USA, the only country to ever be convicted of international terrorism I must remind you.

============================================

Why US Leaders Intervene Everywhere

 

excerpted from the book

 

The Terrorism Trap

 

by Michael Parenti

 

City Lights Books, 2002

 

 

Washington policymakers claim that US intervention is motivated by a desire to fight terrorism, bring democracy to other peoples, maintain peace and stability in various regions, defend our national security, protect weaker nations from aggressors, oppose tyranny, prevent genocide, and the like. But if US leaders have only the best intentions when they intervene in other lands, why has the United States become the most hated nation in the terrorist's pantheon of demons? And not only Muslim zealots but people from all walks of life around the world denounce the US government as the prime purveyor of violence and imperialist exploitation. Do they see something that most Americans have not been allowed to see?

Supporting the Right

Since World War II, the US government has given some $240 billion in military aid to build up the military and internal security forces of more than eighty other nations. The purpose of this enormous effort has been not to defend these nations from invasion by foreign aggressors but to protect their various ruling oligarchs and multinational corporate investors from the dangers of domestic anticapitalist insurgency. That is what some of us have been arguing. But how can we determine that? By observing that (a) with few exceptions there is no evidence suggesting that these various regimes have ever been threatened by attack from neighboring countries; (b) just about all these "friendly" regimes have supported economic systems that are integrated into a global system of corporate domination, open to foreign penetration on terms that are singularly favorable to transnational investors; (c) there is a great deal of evidence that US-supported military and security forces and death squads in these various countries have been repeatedly used to destroy reformist movements, labor unions, peasant organizations, and popular insurgencies that advocate some kind of egalitarian redistributive politics for themselves.

For decades we were told that a huge US military establishment was necessary to contain an expansionist world Communist movement with its headquarters in Moscow (or sometimes Beijing). But after the overthrow of the Soviet Union and other Eastern European communist nations in 1989-1991, Washington made no move to dismantle its costly and dangerous global military apparatus. All Cold War weapons programs continued in full force, with new ones being added all the time, including the outer-space National Missile Defense and other projects to militarize outer space. Immediately the White House and Pentagon began issuing jeremiads about a whole host of new enemies-for some unexplained reason previously overlooked-who menace the United States, including "dangerous rogue states" like Libya with its ragtag army of 50,000 and North Korea with its economy on the brink of collapse.

The real intentions of US national security state leaders can be revealed in part by noting whom they assist and whom they attack. US leaders have consistently supported rightist regimes and organizations and opposed leftist ones. The terms "Right" and "Left" are seldom specifically defined by policymakers or media commentators-and with good reason. To explicate the politico-economic content of leftist governments and movements is to reveal their egalitarian and usually democratic goals, making it much harder to demonize them. The "Left," as I would define it, encompasses those individuals, organizations, and governments that oppose the privileged interests of wealthy propertied classes, while advocating egalitarian redistributive policies and a common development beneficial to the general populace.

The Right too is involved in redistributive politics, but the distribution goes the other way, in an upward direction. Rightist governments and groups, including fascist ones, are dedicated to using the land, labor, markets, and natural resources of countries as so much fodder for the enrichment of the owning and investing classes. In almost every country including our own, rightist groups, parties, or governments pursue tax and spending programs, wage and investment practices, methods of police and military control, and deregulation and privatization policies that primarily benefit those who receive the bulk of their income from investments and property, at the expense of those who live off wages, salaries, fees, and pensions. That is what defines and distinguishes the Right from the Left.

In just about every instance, rightist forces are deemed by US opinion makers to be "friendly to the West," a coded term for "pro-capitalist." Conversely, leftist ones are labeled as "anti-democratic," "anti-American" and "anti-West," when actually what they are against is global capitalism.

While claiming to be motivated by a dedication to human rights and democracy, US leaders have supported some of the most notorious rightwing autocracies in history, governments that have tortured, killed or otherwise maltreated large numbers of their citizens because of their dissenting political views, as in Turkey, Zaire, Chad, Pakistan, Morocco, Indonesia, Honduras, Peru, Colombia, Argentina, El Salvador, Guatemala, Haiti, the Philippines, Cuba (under Batista), Nicaragua (under Somoza), Iran (under the Shah), and Portugal (under Salazar).

Washington also assists counterrevolutionary groups that have perpetrated some of the most brutal bloodletting against civilian populations in leftist countries: Unita in Angola, Renamo in Mozambique, the contras in Nicaragua, the Khmer Rouge (during the 1980s) in Cambodia, the mujahideen and then the Taliban in Afghanistan, and the rightwing drug-dealing KLA terrorists in Kosovo. All this is a matter of public record although seldom if ever treated in the US media.

Washington's support has extended to the extreme rightist reaches of the political spectrum. Thus, after World War 11 US leaders and their Western capitalist allies did nothing to eradicate fascism from Europe, except for prosecuting some top Nazi leaders at Nuremberg. In short time, former Nazis and their collaborators were back in the saddle in Germany. Hundreds of Nazi war criminals found a haven in the United States and Latin America, either living in comfortable anonymity or employed by US intelligence agencies during the Cold War.

In France, very few Vichy collaborators were purged. "No one of any rank was seriously punished for his or her role in the roundup and deportation of Jews to Nazi camps." US military authorities also restored fascist collaborators to power in various Far East nations. In South Korea, police trained by the fascist Japanese occupation force were used after the war to suppress left democratic forces. The South Korean Army was commanded by officers who had served in the Imperial Japanese Army, some of whom had been guilty of horrid war crimes in the Philippines and China.

ln Italy, within a year after the war, almost all Italian fascists were released from prison while hundreds of communists and other leftist partisans who had been valiantly fighting the Nazi occupation were jailed. Allied authorities initiated most of these measures. In the three decades after the war, US government agencies gave an estimated $75 million to right-wing organizations in Italy. From 1969 to 1974, high-ranking elements in Italian military and civilian intelligence agencies, along with various secret and highly placed neofascist groups embarked upon a campaign of terror and sabotage known as the "strategy of tension," involving a series of kidnappings, assassinations, and bombing massacres directed against the growing popularity of the democratic parliamentary Left. In 1995, a deeply implicated CIA, refused to cooperate with an Italian parliamentary commission investigating this terrorist campaign.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Parenti/Why_US_Intervenes.html

[Altai]

Now I read that Venezuela has the 20% of total oil reserves in the World. I think this explains soo much about the events. Their president is probably does not allow US to have these oil easily or they are planning to work with some other countries too such as Russia or European ones and US is getting mad. 

[hot enough]

19 minutes ago, Altai said:

Now I read that Venezuela has the 20% of total oil reserves in the World. I think this explains soo much about the events. Their president is probably does not allow US to have these oil easily or they are planning to work with some other countries too such as Russia or European ones and US is getting mad. 

It explains it all, Altai. This has been so evident for over a century when the US and the UK fashioned the Middle East to help them steal those people's immense wealth. 

[capricorn]

30 minutes ago, Altai said:

So you offer me to read a British government and intelligence mouth to have an idea about Venezuela ?

Here, knock yourself out. There's even one there from Aljezera I'm sure you would like.

https://news.google.com/news/explore/section/q/Venezuela/Venezuela?ned=ca&hl=en-CA

[Altai]

5 minutes ago, capricorn said:

Here, knock yourself out. There's even one there from Aljezera I'm sure you would like.

https://news.google.com/news/explore/section/q/Venezuela/Venezuela?ned=ca&hl=en-CA

So what Al Jazeera link says ? Did you read your own link  ?

[capricorn]

1 minute ago, Altai said:

So what Al Jazeera link says ? Did you read your own link  ?

Look at it yourself. I provided you google news search results on the subject of Venezuela so that you could consult the source(s) you think are unbiased. So go through the list and read a couple. Otherwise remain ignorant on the subject of the Venezuelan crisis.

[hot enough]

25 minutes ago, capricorn said:

There's even one there from Aljezera [sic]I'm sure you would like.

 

Aren't you well informed, capricorn?

[hot enough]

17 minutes ago, capricorn said:

Otherwise remain ignorant on the subject of the Venezuelan crisis.

You really ought not to be pointing fingers, capricorn. 

[Altai]

31 minutes ago, hot enough said:

It explains it all, Altai. This has been so evident for over a century when the US and the UK fashioned the Middle East to help them steal those people's immense wealth. 

These people claims that US want to change Venezuelan govt because its a "dictatorship". (by the way, I read that their president is elected).  Then here my question is why the same US is not disturbed by Saudi govt (which is a kingdom) and does not try to make a coup there too ? The answer is "because they are working in accordonce with US interests". 

Edited August 8, 2017 by Altai

[Altai]

Why US does not try to make a coup in Britain or its satellite Canada ? These countries are directly controlled by the "Queen", so dictatorships.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Altai

[hot enough]

On 8/4/2017 at 7:36 AM, scribblet said:

 Have you ever thought about what would happen if a western gov’t fell being replaced by a dictatorship? 

Have you ever wondered, scribblet, what would happen if the US actually helped countries establish democracies instead of always installing the US's hand picked brutal, right wing [yes, right wing, like you] dictatorships?