EVIDENCE FOR GOD

[?Impact]

2 minutes ago, Hawkins said:

 

What? To me, the "sons of god" refers to other homo erectus existed. That's why even scientists found Neanderthal genes inside humans.

Both Homo erectus and Neanderthals were extinct many 10's of thousands of years before the Bible begins.

[Hawkins]

1 minute ago, ?Impact said:

Both Homo erectus and Neanderthals were extinct many 10's of thousands of years before the Bible begins.

 

How do you know where the Bible begins? How do human dating methods work?

 

Human dating methods work based on the assumption that God doesn't exist so that earth is in its current location (in terms of time-space) all the "times" from the "beginning". If God exists then this may not be the case. Each time when the time-space of earth shifted due to a need, all your human dating methods are thus nullified!

 

The age of Bible, by certain POV, is calculated by the biblical accounts of genealogy. However, genealogy is never meant to aim for year calculation, as ancient human culture may vary in terms of how genealogies were written and kept. The biblical accounts of genealogy however are accounts of human witnessing to testify that Jesus is from Adam and David, no less no more.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Hawkins

[?Impact]

Just now, Hawkins said:

 

How do you know where the Bible begins? How do human dating methods work?

All that begetting has allowed scholars to date the Bible. Are you suggesting that Noah actually lived 900 years, and that methods like carbon dating of organic tissue are wrong?

[Hawkins]

4 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

All that begetting has allowed scholars to date the Bible. Are you suggesting that Noah actually lived 900 years, and that methods like carbon dating of organic tissue are wrong?

 

You must be kidding me. 

 

How can you even try to date a book you don't even have the original copy at hand? Why don't you just try to date a history book in a public library near your house to see how old human history can be traced back? By dating such a book, it says humans only have like 3 years of history. LOL.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Hawkins

[?Impact]

1 minute ago, Hawkins said:

 

You must be kidding me. 

 

How can you even try to date a book you don't even have to original copies at hand?

What? I said the Bible is dated by the begetting. Are you suggesting that current copies are invalid in that respect? If so then I claim equally that current copies are completely invalid in all other respects.

[Hawkins]

3 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

What? I said the Bible is dated by the begetting. Are you suggesting that current copies are invalid in that respect? If so then I claim equally that current copies are completely invalid in all other respects.

No. You first need to know how human history is written and passed on!

 

Then you may have a grip on what valid human witnessing and testimonies are.

 

Now let's get back to the question. Why don't you date a history book in the public library near your house?

Edited December 19, 2017 by Hawkins

[?Impact]

1 minute ago, Hawkins said:

No. You first need to know how human history is written and passed on!

I am not the one proclaiming the supremacy of the Bible. To me it is a bunch of fairy tales, perhaps very loosely based on events that have been heavily modified through "telephone tag".

1 minute ago, Hawkins said:

Then you may have a grip on what valid human witnessing and testimonies are.

Please elaborate.

1 minute ago, Hawkins said:

Now let's get back to the question. Why don't date a history book in the public library near your house?

I (not me personally but Biblical scholars) am not dating the Bible, I am dating the story the Bible tells. I don't care when the history book was written, I care about the event it relates. I can pick up many history books that talk about Samuel de Champlain sailing up the St. Lawrence, from them I get a good idea of when he arrive in places like modern day Quebec City, Montreal, lake Champlain, etc. I may not have an exact date and time of day, but I know what year. The Bible is a bit less defined, I may not know what year but I can get a good idea what decade or century depending on what event is being addressed.

[taxme]

16 hours ago, blackbird said:

Since Christ came 2000 years ago, the gospel was open to Gentiles.  The apostle Paul explains this in Romans.  Prior to Christ's coming, the Jews were God's chosen people.  Some of the promises God gave regarding the Jews are still in effect.  But they cannot be saved without believing in Jesus as their Savior.   Today God wishes for all to be saved.  Jews are not the chosen people for salvation today.  It is available to anyone who believes.

Now you've made it clear I must go back and read about Noah and the flood in Genesis. 

Well, it was about time for God to realize that hey there are non-Jews also out there who I must show love to.But how did God forget about the rest of us for all those centuries? Shocking. 

But Jews hate Christ. That is why they were able to convince and get Pontius Pilate to crucify Jesus. 

If there is anybody that will probably have a tough time trying to make it into heaven that will most likely be the so-called chosen ones. Even in Israel, Jews attack Christians. 

[?Impact]

9 minutes ago, taxme said:

Well, it was about time for God to realize that hey there are non-Jews also out there who I must show love to.But how did God forget about the rest of us for all those centuries?

Jesus was a Jew - The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. - John 3:2. The first followers of Jesus were also Jews, it is only later that Gentiles also followed his ways (Acts 11). Christians are technically both Jew and Gentile.

Edited December 19, 2017 by ?Impact

[blackbird]

55 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

I see 17 verses in Deuteronomy & Exodus, not 10 commandments. If I was Catholic I would have a different interpretation of them then if I were Anglican, let alone Orthodox Christian, Jewish, Lutheran, etc. Depending on my religion, the first 3 or 4 are completely self serving - God proclaiming his omnipotence and demanding everyone supplicate themselves before him (her/it); I would say that is very radical or extreme. Only two are really incorporated into the legal system (prohibition on killing and stealing), and one might conjuncture that false witness does have some limited in context applicability. Coveting is more a quality of capitalism, so I would say it is pretty radical to prohibit it.

You didn't mention marriage between one man and one woman.  This is a biblical teaching, particularly in the New Testament.  You find there are other cultures/religions where they believe in polygamy.   We also don't offer human sacrifice or practice cannibalism, things that were done by some heathen tribes or civilizations.  Christian civilization has brought us changes that never existed prior to the work of missionaries bringing the gospel to the world.  Other examples are the barbarism of people like the vikings, barbarians of various sorts.  We also have adopted a certain respect for individual rights or human rights and justice systems based on principles taught in the Holy Bible.  Love for people and individuals is a characteristic of God and is taught in the Bible, misinterpretations of the Old Testament aside.  Many other countries in the world who do not have a Judeo-christian foundation often do not respect human rights even to this day.

" God proclaiming his omnipotence and demanding everyone supplicate themselves before him (her/it); I would say that is very radical or extreme."    This idea would come from a lack of knowledge about who God is and his character and power.  When a person understands some of the basic characteristics and nature of God, he will then understand why it is perfectly reasonable to kneel before God in a reverent frame of mind and supplication.  There is more to it than can be copied to this page so I will give a link and encourage you to take a look through it.   This page describes the nature and character of God.

http://www.gospeltruth.net/natandcharofgod.htm

[taxme]

13 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

Jesus was a Jew - The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. - John 3:2. The first followers of Jesus were also Jews, it is only later that Gentiles also followed his ways (Acts 11). Christians are technically both Jew and Gentile.

Christianity came after Jesus "Christ" came into the picture. Before that the Christian religion did not exist. Nope, Christians are Christian, and are not a part of nor practice the Jewish Judaism religion. Christians do not celebrate Hanukkah, and Jews do not celebrate Christianity. They are two different separate religions. 

[blackbird]

30 minutes ago, taxme said:

Well, it was about time for God to realize that hey there are non-Jews also out there who I must show love to.But how did God forget about the rest of us for all those centuries? Shocking. 

But Jews hate Christ. That is why they were able to convince and get Pontius Pilate to crucify Jesus. 

If there is anybody that will probably have a tough time trying to make it into heaven that will most likely be the so-called chosen ones. Even in Israel, Jews attack Christians. 

Non-Jews could be saved prior to 2000 years ago in Old Testament times if they converted to Judaism.  When Christ came, the Old Testament system of worship ended and true worship of God required becoming a believer in Christ. There were some Jews in Old Testament times who were converted to Judaism.

I can't comment much on your claim that Jews attack Christians.  I have a book called "God's First Love" by Friedrich Heer that chronicles the past two thousand years of anti-Semitism in Europe.  Of course this culminated in the holocaust of six million Jews in the gas chambers.  The persecution of the Jews in the last two thousands years was a huge dark part of history.  I am not aware of Jews attacking christians.  If it happened, it would probably be rare because Jews lived among large gentile populations in various countries and were in no position to attack christians.  Jews were heavily persecuted through Europe and Russia as well.  That's why many did not waste time emigrating to get back to the land of Israel once it was re-established.

I don't know if Jews 'hate' Christ.  They work with christians in the west and are accepted as part of society.  The ones in Israel also know the west, particularly the U.S. and Canada to some extent, are more friendly and allied with Israel than their neighbours.  Jews today just believe Jesus Christ is not the messiah.  But there are a certain number of them who converted to Christ.  Others are still waiting for the messiah to arrive.

[blackbird]

30 minutes ago, taxme said:

Christianity came after Jesus "Christ" came into the picture. Before that the Christian religion did not exist. Nope, Christians are Christian, and are not a part of nor practice the Jewish Judaism religion. Christians do not celebrate Hanukkah, and Jews do not celebrate Christianity. They are two different separate religions. 

Just to add to your comment a bit, the Old Testament is an account of the history of the Jews and God's dealings with them.  The book of Genesis gives an account of the creation of everything including Adam and Eve.   The Jews in Old testament times worshiped the one and only true God or Yahweh or Jehovah.  The true believing Jews believed in a future messiah during this period of time.  They were not called christians but were nevertheless followers of the true God of the Bible, as were  Moses, Abraham, Isaac, King David, etc.  The Old Testament prophesied the coming of Christ in several places.  Isaiah ch9:6 and I think Isaiah ch14 and other places.  But you are correct the christian religion did not exist as what we call "christianity" but the worship of the same God existed prior to Christ coming to earth.  When Christ came, the old Jewish religion was replaced by christianity.  You are correct in that.  But the Jewish religion was a predecessor to christianity.  The Old Testament gives all the details about this.

The Old Testament Jewish system included the tabernacle where they offered the blood of animals as sacrifices for sin.  This is the system God commanded them to follow at that time.  These Jewish animal sacrifices were a picture of the sacrifice of Christ, a once for all sacrifice for sin.  Once Christ came, there was no more need for these Old Testament sacrifices and that system was abolished in christianity.

Edited December 19, 2017 by blackbird

[taxme]

9 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Non-Jews could be saved prior to 2000 years ago in Old Testament times if they converted to Judaism.  When Christ came, the Old Testament system of worship ended and true worship of God required becoming a believer in Christ. There were some Jews in Old Testament times who were converted to Judaism.

I can't comment much on your claim that Jews attack Christians.  I have a book called "God's First Love" by Friedrich Heer that chronicles the past two thousand years of anti-Semitism in Europe.  Of course this culminated in the holocaust of six million Jews in the gas chambers.  The persecution of the Jews in the last two thousands years was a huge dark part of history.  I am not aware of Jews attacking christians.  If it happened, it would probably be rare because Jews lived among large gentile populations in various countries and were in no position to attack christians.  Jews were heavily persecuted through Europe and Russia as well.  That's why many did not waste time emigrating to get back to the land of Israel once it was re-established.

I don't know if Jews 'hate' Christ.  They work with christians in the west and are accepted as part of society.  The ones in Israel also know the west, particularly the U.S. and Canada to some extent, are more friendly and allied with Israel than their neighbours.  Jews today just believe Jesus Christ is not the messiah.  But there are a certain number of them who converted to Christ.  Others are still waiting for the messiah to arrive.

Why was there any religion like Judaism around anyway? Why did anyone have to convert to Judaism just to be saved? 

So, just why are Jews hated so much and pretty much by the whole world? What did they do to deserve such hatred towards them? They must have done something for them to be so despised?  The holocaust is another story which was explained by many that the gas chambers were not what the Germans were using to kill Jews. Now the Jews have Israel but they keep wanting to expand into other people's territory. That is not a recipe for peace but war. 

The Jews must have hated Christ because they had him crucified. But you should know that? It would appear as though without Canada, the USA, and the UK Israel would have no friends. I wonder why that is so also? 

 

[taxme]

5 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Just to add to your comment a bit, the Old Testament is an account of the history of the Jews and God's dealings with them.  The book of Genesis gives an account of the creation of everything including Adam and Eve.   The Jews in Old testament times worshiped the one and only true God or Yahweh or Jehovah.  The true believing Jews believed in a future messiah during this period of time.  They were not called christians but were nevertheless followers of the true God of the Bible, as were  Moses, Abraham, Isaac, King David, etc.  The Old Testament prophesied the coming of Christ in several places.  Isaiah ch9:6 and I think Isaiah ch14 and other places.  But you are correct the christian religion did not exist as what we call "christianity" but the worship of the same God existed prior to Christ coming to earth.  When Christ came, the old Jewish religion was replaced by christianity.  You are correct in that.  But the Jewish religion was a predecessor to christianity.  The Old Testament gives all the details about this.

The Old Testament Jewish system included the tabernacle where they offered the blood of animals as sacrifices for sin.  This is the system God commanded them to follow at that time.  These Jewish animal sacrifices were a picture of the sacrifice of Christ, a once for all sacrifice for sin.  Once Christ came, there was no more need for these Old Testament sacrifices and that system was abolished in christianity.

Whatever. 

[blackbird]

9 minutes ago, taxme said:

Why was there any religion like Judaism around anyway? Why did anyone have to convert to Judaism just to be saved? 

So, just why are Jews hated so much and pretty much by the whole world? What did they do to deserve such hatred towards them? They must have done something for them to be so despised?  The holocaust is another story which was explained by many that the gas chambers were not what the Germans were using to kill Jews. Now the Jews have Israel but they keep wanting to expand into other people's territory. That is not a recipe for peace but war. 

The Jews must have hated Christ because they had him crucified. But you should know that? It would appear as though without Canada, the USA, and the UK Israel would have no friends. I wonder why that is so also? 

 

They had to convert to Judaism to be saved because that was the system of worship God commanded at that time.  There were many heathen systems of worship around at that time and some offered human sacrifices.

Jews have been hated for 2000 years by many people, partly because they say the Jews crucified Christ or God.  Hatred is one of the human failings that comes from the fallen nature.  It is a another reason why we need to be regenerated or born again by faith in Christ.  It is wrong to hate the Jews.  The Bible commands us to love them.  So those who hate the Jews are going against the Bible and teachings of God.

I know you are correct about that at the time Christ was on earth.  The non-believing Jews hated Christ and demanded he be crucified.  But I am not sure that today they are in the same way of thinking.  Many of them believe in Christ and have become christians.

Edited December 19, 2017 by blackbird

[taxme]

On 12/19/2017 at 2:04 PM, blackbird said:

They had to convert to Judaism to be saved because that was the system of worship God commanded at that time.  There were many heathen systems of worship around at that time and some offered human sacrifices.

Jews have been hated for 2000 years by many people, partly because they say the Jews crucified Christ or God.  Hatred is one of the human failings that comes from the fallen nature.  It is a another reason why we need to be regenerated or born again by faith in Christ.  It is wrong to hate the Jews.  The Bible commands us to love them.  So those who hate the Jews are going against the Bible and teachings of God.

I know you are correct about that at the time Christ was on earth.  The non-believing Jews hated Christ and demanded he be crucified.  But I am not sure that today they are in the same way of thinking.  Many of them believe in Christ and have become christians.

Well, it is either you or me who is not getting the picture here just yet. For thousands of centuries men have been killing each other by the hundreds of millions, not counting all the injuries and suffering, and where is god? Why has god not stopped all of these wars and the many battles between countries that have been going on pretty much since time began? I would think that just one killing would be enough for god to want to step in. Look at all the hunger and poverty and carnage that has happened in the world that still goes on and has been going on for centuries now?  A loving and caring god should have stopped this a long time ago. It would appear as though god is just sitting back in his lazy boy chair and allowing it to happen without any care or concern. Maybe even enjoying it? Even in the animal kingdom god has created animals that kill and eat other animals. Even the animal world is not immune from killing. I would think that god should have set an example to all humans that in the animal world only peace and contentment exists. No killing allowed. 

Indeed many Jews have switched over to the Christian religion but many do not appear any more Christian then I am. Many Jews joined and became Christian to get inside and try and destroy Christianity as has been written about by many people in the past. But hey. 

[blackbird]

5 hours ago, taxme said:

Well, it is either you or me who is not getting the picture here just yet. For thousands of centuries men have been killing each other by the hundreds of millions, not counting all the injuries and suffering, and where is god? Why has god not stopped all of these wars and the many battles between countries that have been going on pretty much since time began? I would think that just one killing would be enough for god to want to step in. Look at all the hunger and poverty and carnage that has happened in the world that still goes on and has been going on for centuries now?  A loving and caring god should have stopped this a long time ago. It would appear as though god is just sitting back in his lazy boy chair and allowing it to happen without any care or concern. Maybe even enjoying it? Even in the animal kingdom god has created animals that kill and eat other animals. Even the animal world is not immune from killing. I would think that god should have set an example to all humans that in the animal world only peace and contentment exists. No killing allowed. 

Indeed many Jews have switched over to the Christian religion but many do not appear any more Christian then I am. Many Jews joined and became Christian to get inside and try and destroy Christianity as has been written about by many people in the past. But hey. 

I don't have all the answers, but the fall of man is a well established doctrine of the Bible.  Since the fall of Adam and Eve, man has been born with a depraved heart.  That's why we have all the wars.    I am not sure if the fall is the reason animals eat other animals.  We know there is a food chain.  Eating each other is how animals and fish survive.  Often the large ones eat the smaller ones.  This is possibly the way God intended it to be for the time being.  After Jesus returns and sets up his reign on earth, it may be a different earth with animals not eating each other.  There is going to be a new heaven and a new earth.  Perhaps that is when things will be peaceful.

Edited December 21, 2017 by blackbird

[taxme]

21 hours ago, blackbird said:

I don't have all the answers, but the fall of man is a well established doctrine of the Bible.  Since the fall of Adam and Eve, man has been born with a depraved heart.  That's why we have all the wars.    I am not sure if the fall is the reason animals eat other animals.  We know there is a food chain.  Eating each other is how animals and fish survive.  Often the large ones eat the smaller ones.  This is possibly the way God intended it to be for the time being.  After Jesus returns and sets up his reign on earth, it may be a different earth with animals not eating each other.  There is going to be a new heaven and a new earth.  Perhaps that is when things will be peaceful.

Well cows and sheep and rabbits don't eat other other animals. They eat grass. Why create another animal to eat those peaceful animals is to me a cruel thing to be doing. There should be no food chain. But then again who really can explain as to what or how god thinks or feels. 

So, are you saying that when god comes things could change where lions are going to be somehow forced into changing their eating habits from eating meat to being forced to eating grass or flowers? Just asking. 

[?Impact]

11 minutes ago, taxme said:

So, are you saying that when god comes things could change where lions are going to be somehow forced into changing their eating habits from eating meat to being forced to eating grass or flowers? Just asking. 

Food will be unnecessary, the laws of biology, chemistry, and physics will be changed.

[blackbird]

4 hours ago, taxme said:

Well cows and sheep and rabbits don't eat other other animals. They eat grass. Why create another animal to eat those peaceful animals is to me a cruel thing to be doing. There should be no food chain. But then again who really can explain as to what or how god thinks or feels. 

So, are you saying that when god comes things could change where lions are going to be somehow forced into changing their eating habits from eating meat to being forced to eating grass or flowers? Just asking. 

When Jesus Christ returns and establishes his 1000 year reign (known as the Millenium) on earth things will be different.  After that there will be a new earth.

6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

   Isaiah ch11 vs 6 to 9

I don't think the Bible tells why some animals eat others or when that began. 

 

[taxme]

4 hours ago, ?Impact said:

Food will be unnecessary, the laws of biology, chemistry, and physics will be changed.

Of course god came to you and told you this, eh? Why didn't god just do it all in the first place, and be done with it, and avoiding all the human misery and suffering and billions of deaths that have occoured since man/woman came on the scene. Why? 

[taxme]

2 minutes ago, blackbird said:

When Jesus Christ returns and establishes his 1000 year reign (known as the Millenium) on earth things will be different.  After that there will be a new earth.

6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

   Isaiah ch11 vs 6 to 9

I don't think the Bible tells why some animals eat others or when that began. 

 

Well, why god didn't do all of this in the beginning and avoid all the misery and suffering that mankind and animal kind alike has had to live with since the creation of humans and animals? 

[blackbird]

5 minutes ago, taxme said:

Well, why god didn't do all of this in the beginning and avoid all the misery and suffering that mankind and animal kind alike has had to live with since the creation of humans and animals? 

I don't know.  I would be just speculating.  If you ever get the chance, maybe you can ask him.  Or maybe the answer is in the Bible and you can find it with Google.  THere is a website called GotQuestions that answers biblical questions.  If I find the answer I will post it.

 

But again this may be the result of the fall of man.

Edited December 22, 2017 by blackbird

[blackbird]

God could have created a race of robots, mechanical operated by computer systems.  But that wouldn't be the same as humans with a degree of free will and the ability to make choices. 

Edited December 22, 2017 by blackbird