Why all the worldwide turmoil? (9/11 thread)

[hot enough]

1 hour ago, Omni said:

Ignoring facts is what religions are all about after all.

That's what Altai pointed out, the American religion, false from the start to today.

[segnosaur]

7 hours ago, hot enough said:

Yup, the magical passport, stronger than a titanium airliner engine.

Aircraft crashes and fires are chaotic events, and its almost random what might survive and what might not.

No, the passport would not have to be made of titanium to survive... At the time of the impact, parts of the plane and its contents would have continued to have forward momentum, which would have carried it away from the resulting explosion and fires.

Its not all that uncommon for passports to survive plane crashes... for example, from: http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/11/plane.crash/index.html?PHPSESSID=56392fb5960cd7d3a7b46e052d982f42

Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle and his flight instructor were killed Wednesday when the 34-year-old ballplayer's plane crashed into a high-rise apartment building in New York, city and baseball team officials said...Two bodies and Lidle's passport were found in the street,

Granted, this was a smaller plane, but it did spark a few fires.

It should also be pointed out that it wasn't the only such debris located in the area of the WTC... things like credit cards were also found. (See: http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/08/31/washington.911.exhibit/)

The whole conspiracy claims seem so bizarre...

U.S. government: We have evidence Al Quaeda did it

Bin Laden: Al Quaeda did it!

Other governments: Yeah we pretty much agree Al Quaeda did it

The majority of academics: Pretty much everything points to Al Quaeda

Conspiracy theorist: Even though most people have absolutely no expertise in the area that we're making claims about, we're going to propose some sort of mass government conspiracy, even though none of us can actually come up with a coherent explanation of what we think actually happened that doesn't involve Bigfoot and space aliens.

We know that terrorist were involved because of reports that were received from at least one of the planes. We know the identities because of things like letters that were left behind, and admissions from Al Quaeda. To assume that the people involved weren't the accused hijackers, it would involve getting volunteers to actually crash at least one plane (United 93, where we have multiple reports on board of hijackers), as well as somehow getting a bunch of dupes to be patsies (yet people who still bothered to go through flight training.)

If you want to be believed then fine: Here's your task: Tell us exactly what happened on 9/11. Who was involved, how things were accomplished.

 

 

[Omni]

2 minutes ago, hot enough said:

That's what Altai pointed out, the American religion, false from the start to today.

Especially that "troother" religion.

[hot enough]

18 minutes ago, dialamah said:

You've already made up your mind that it's because I'm dishonest.   

Not at all. I suggested with polite indirection that you could be not viewing this accurately. My apologies if I hurt your feelings. You really haven't seemed to be a shrinking violet. 

[Altai]

4 minutes ago, hot enough said:

Facts don't mean anything to you. It was Tuesday morning. The cheering crowds was another US propaganda myth. 

Yes I saw the video. This is disgusting. They used a video from 1990's which is the record of Palestinians celebrating peace agreement with Israel, claiming its Palestinians celebrating 9-11. 

Edited April 2, 2017 by Altai

[hot enough]

4 minutes ago, Altai said:

Yes I saw the video. These is disgusting. They used a video from 1990's which is the record of Palestinians celebrating peace agreement with Israel, claiming its Palestinians celebrating 9-11. 

That is small potatoes, Altai. We are dealing with the USA, the folks of death squads and worldwide torture chambers. And those are the nice things. 

[Altai]

Just now, hot enough said:

That is small potatoes, Altai. We are dealing with the USA, the folks of death squads and worldwide torture chambers. And those are the nice things. 

Dont worry, Allah see everyhing. He is just allowing them to sink more and more in the mud. 

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, hot enough said:

Facts don't mean anything to you. It was Tuesday morning.

 

7 minutes ago, hot enough said:

Cheap shot?

 

[dialamah]

1 minute ago, hot enough said:

Not at all. I suggested with polite indirection that you could be not viewing this accurately. My apologies if I hurt your feelings. You really haven't seemed to be a shrinking violet. 

 

Feelings are not hurt in the least.  I do not believe that the US Government took down the WTC and killed several thousand of their citizens.   You can call that dishonest, hiding my head, whatever.   The fact is I have not found the evidence presented by those who do believe to be persuasive.

[hot enough]

2 hours ago, Ash74 said:

I don't know all ghetto details of 9 11 and nobody here does either. We will never know. I do not believe that the US government set the whole thing up either. Everything something happens like this there is a huge conspiracy plot. 

No one needs to know all the details [I'm curious, no personal attack here; what are ghetto details] just the ones that show that the US official story is a fraud. NIST's study is a fraud. NIST's study was done to cover up the controlled demolitions of WTCs 1, 2 & 7. 

19 Arab hijackers did not do this. Aren't you shocked to find out the big bad boy, Osama bin Laden wasn't involved in 911. Just ask yourself, who were the people who lied to you about that?

[segnosaur]

1 hour ago, Altai said:

Are you kidding ? You are one of them, who believe in the govt stories. Its a kind of religion.  

Keep in mind that people don't believe that Al Qaeda carried out 9/11 just because "The government said so".

We base our understanding on multiple sources... yes, the U.S. government is one source of information, but we also have private organizations (for example, professional engineering organizations are pretty much all in agreement that the impact and fires were the cause of the WTC collapse, not bombs or thermite).

More importantly, we have Occam's razor. To paraphrase, Occam's razor basically says that the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. We know that our information regarding 9/11 is imperfect. but the explanation of the official story (that hijackers caused several plane crashes, one of which lead to the collapse of the WTC) fits the evidence. Anyone attempting to assume there was some "inside job" conspiracy has to come up with a plausible explanation of what actually happened.... who was involved, how many people, how things "fit in" with the evidence. Most conspiracy theorists don't bother trying to do so,... why? Because if they did they would fail miserably.... they'd have to include more and more people to pull off the job. plus they'd have to explain how such a plan could be pulled off without anyone of the thousands of people ever saying "I was involved but now I want to come clean"

For more reading, I would suggest: http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons

 

[Omni]

9 minutes ago, segnosaur said:

8 hours ago, hot enough said:

Yup, the magical passport, stronger than a titanium airliner engine.

Aircraft crashes and fires are chaotic events, and its almost random what might survive and what might not.

No, the passport would not have to be made of titanium to survive... At the time of the impact, parts of the plane and its contents would have continued to have forward momentum, which would have carried it away from the resulting explosion and fires.

That's true and it's quite common for odd things to survive while the rest is destroyed. I was on the scene of AC 621 after it crashed near YYZ. The DC8 was burning profusely before it crashed into a field killing all 109 on board. There were victims wallets and purses that had been torn open and dollar bills were laying here and there while beside it there were bodies barely recognizable. So a passport doesn't need any "magic" to keep it from being cremated.Just a bit of luck. But hey, the "troothers" will use any old thing to try and flog their wild eyed stories. 

[segnosaur]

10 minutes ago, Altai said:

Facts don't mean anything to you. It was Tuesday morning. The cheering crowds was another US propaganda myth. 

Yes I saw the video. This is disgusting. They used a video from 1990's which is the record of Palestinians celebrating peace agreement with Israel, claiming its Palestinians celebrating 9-11. 

The videos of the palestinians celebrating were taken on September 11, 2001. CNN (as well as other news organizations) confirmed it. And the original claim that it was old footage has been recanted by the person who made the original claim. (In addition to multiple news organizations, you can also tell that it was recent footage because of relatively recent cars that appeared in the video. So unless you want to suggest Palestinians invented time travel in order to transport 2000-Model civics back in time, you have to assume that the video was recent.)

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.asp

 

[Altai]

4 minutes ago, segnosaur said:

Keep in mind that people don't believe that Al Qaeda carried out 9/11 just because "The government said so".

We base our understanding on multiple sources... yes, the U.S. government is one source of information, but we also have private organizations (for example, professional engineering organizations are pretty much all in agreement that the impact and fires were the cause of the WTC collapse, not bombs or thermite).

More importantly, we have Occam's razor. To paraphrase, Occam's razor basically says that the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. We know that our information regarding 9/11 is imperfect. but the explanation of the official story (that hijackers caused several plane crashes, one of which lead to the collapse of the WTC) fits the evidence. Anyone attempting to assume there was some "inside job" conspiracy has to come up with a plausible explanation of what actually happened.... who was involved, how many people, how things "fit in" with the evidence. Most conspiracy theorists don't bother trying to do so,... why? Because if they did they would fail miserably.... they'd have to include more and more people to pull off the job. plus they'd have to explain how such a plan could be pulled off without anyone of the thousands of people ever saying "I was involved but now I want to come clean"

For more reading, I would suggest: http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons

 

This is why I invite them to create a common research commission. therefore we would not have to "believe" in someones claims, be state or be anyone. 

I am not an expert in this issue and I dont want to make direct descriptions but as an ordinary person, it seems quite illogical to me that these building collapsed because of upper floors collapsed and they create a pressure effect on the lower floors. There are also many people that saying its impossible to melt all the columns equally, therefore the towers should have lean a side but they collapse vertically. We also need someones to calculate falling speed of the buildings, at east the clearly visible parts because it seem like collapsing at free fall speed, so there is no resistance and this strengthen the possiblity of something "unknown" was happened.  

[hot enough]

13 minutes ago, segnosaur said:

Keep in mind that people don't believe that Al Qaeda carried out 9/11 just because "The government said so".

We base our understanding on multiple sources... yes, the U.S. government is one source of information, but we also have private organizations (for example, professional engineering organizations are pretty much all in agreement that the impact and fires were the cause of the WTC collapse, not bombs or thermite).

Altai isn't so naive as to be bought off with a piece of slippery propaganda. Yes, "people" believe "that Al Qaeda carried out 9/11 just because "The government said so"". This is the same government that told you that Osama bin Laden was the mastermind and you probably still believe that lie. 

You are wrong about your second point too. These organizations are scared s***less to go anywhere near discussing 911. The AIA hasn't once mentioned the WTC towers in their magazine since 911. But it would have been pretty good propaganda if you didn't have the problem of the NIST study being a fraud, WTC7 falling at free fall speed, molten/vaporized steel, nanothermite found in WTC dust, the twin towers falling at accelerating speeds - all these things and many more clearly point to the fact that the alleged 19 Arab hijackers had nothing to do with 9-11.

A scientific paper shows that WTC1 would have self arrested within two floors. That study pointed out the large errors in the science that NIST relied on to come to their unscientific conclusions. 

 

 

[Altai]

10 minutes ago, segnosaur said:

The videos of the palestinians celebrating were taken on September 11, 2001. CNN (as well as other news organizations) confirmed it. And the original claim that it was old footage has been recanted by the person who made the original claim. (In addition to multiple news organizations, you can also tell that it was recent footage because of relatively recent cars that appeared in the video. So unless you want to suggest Palestinians invented time travel in order to transport 2000-Model civics back in time, you have to assume that the video was recent.)

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.asp

 

"News organizations confirmed it" is not a proof. News organizations always did/doing/do fake-false news. There is only one video, where is the videos of other "news organizations" ? And why we dont see anyone talking at the camera ? Why someones does not ask them why they are such happy ? A guy is talking in a part of it but we dont hear what he says, maybe we could only read his lips and I am not a lip reader. 

 

[segnosaur]

1 minute ago, Altai said:

This is why I invite them to create a common research commission. therefore we would not have to "believe" in someones claims, be state or be anyone. 
 

"Common" including who? And if they come up with what has been said all along (multiple terrorists working with Al Quaeda hijacked and crashed multiple planes, causing some buildings to collapse), will the 9/11 conspiracy theorists actually finally shut up, or will they claim that the "common research commission" is somehow part of the conspiracy?

Truth is, you don't need a "common research commission". You just need some common sense. And Occam's razor.

I am not an expert in this issue...

Neither are pretty much all 9/11 Troothers. In fact, they tend to have no expertise in anything.

and I dont want to make direct descriptions but as an ordinary person, it seems quite illogical to me that these building collapsed because of upper floors collapsed and they create a pressure effect on the lower floors.

The fact that it "doesn't make sense to you" doesn't mean that it won't make sense to an expert.

And again, this is where you should start applying Occam's razor... What makes more sense:

1) That the vast majority of experienced engineers who have looked at the issue, and said "Yup, that's consistent with how the building would have responded to damage and fire"

Or:

2) Almost all structural engineers were wrong, and somehow some shadowy organization managed to sneak bombs onto dozens of floors in the building, when nobody was looking (despite the building having, you know, security), and were able to hide the bombs from anyone who happened to be in the building, AND of all the people involved (people to plant the bombs, people to somehow get the planes to fly into the buildings), not ONE person has ended up feeling guilty after all this time.

There are also many people that saying its impossible to melt all the columns equally, therefore the towers should have lean a side but they collapse vertically.

You don't need to melt all the columns equally. When one column looses strength, remaining columns end up having to take on more of the resulting load.

We also need someones to calculate falling speed of the buildings, at east the clearly visible parts because it seem like collapsing at free fall speed,

Its not collapsing at free fall. How can you tell? Because you can see pieces of the building falling AHEAD of the rest of the collapse.

Here's the thing... There may be things that the U.S. could be criticized for... Maybe they didn't help stabilize Afghanistan after the Russians pulled out. Perhaps they wrongly used 9/11 as a motivation for the Iraq invasion. Maybe they should be a bit more cautious in their support for Saudi Arabia. You don't need some sort of sooper secret conspiracy theory to level those criticisms however,

[hot enough]

27 minutes ago, segnosaur said:

More importantly, we have Occam's razor. To paraphrase, Occam's razor basically says that the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. We know that our information regarding 9/11 is imperfect. but the explanation of the official story (that hijackers caused several plane crashes, one of which lead to the collapse of the WTC) fits the evidence.

Occam's razor put the lie to the US story. It is a crazy, incredibly fanciful fable that only the highly gullible believe. It isn't simple at all, it is a mishmash of impossible events. Occam would laugh at this suggestion. [Yes, I understand.]

Listen to how confused segnosaur's story is - "but the explanation of the official story (that hijackers caused several plane crashes, one of which lead to the collapse of the WTC) fits the evidence."

"several plane crashes"; "one of which lead to the collapse of the WTC)" - gibberish!

WTC7 - free fall, WTC7 molten/vaporized steel, WTC7 nanothermite found - none of these things can fit into the US official story, it is a fable, a fiction, a fairy tale and why sentient adults ignore these proven facts and continue in their delusions is one for generations of psychiatrists. 

 

[capricorn]

1 hour ago, hot enough said:

Who in their right mind would think that a PhD professor at the end of a long and brilliant career, a top flight forensic engineer, would throw his whole life away producing a fraudulent scientific study? 

Brilliant people could go off their rocker in their later years following a stellar career. This top flight forensic engineer of yours is no exception.

[hot enough]

9 minutes ago, segnosaur said:

In fact, they tend to have no expertise in anything.

And what in your lengthy posts can you point to as illustrating you have expertise, segnosaur?

[segnosaur]

4 minutes ago, Altai said:

The videos of the palestinians celebrating were taken on September 11, 2001. CNN (as well as other news organizations) confirmed it. And the original claim that it was old footage has been recanted by the person who made the original claim. (In addition to multiple news organizations, you can also tell that it was recent footage because of relatively recent cars that appeared in the video. So unless you want to suggest Palestinians invented time travel in order to transport 2000-Model civics back in time, you have to assume that the video was recent.)

"News organizations confirmed it" is not a proof. News organizations always did/doing/do fake-false news. There is only one video, where is the videos of other "news organizations" ?

Some of the other news organizations include newspapers (who would not have been shooting video). The Snopes reference I provided points to the Los Angeles times as having reporters who confirmed the Palestinian reactions (which included celebrations).

It should also be pointed out that several other organizations that attempted to film Palestinian celebrations were prevented from doing so by Palestinian authorities. (This was also mentioned in the Snopes reference.)

And why we dont see anyone talking at the camera ? Why someones does not ask them why they are such happy ? A guy is talking in a part of it but we dont hear what he says, maybe we could only read his lips and I am not a lip reader.

I don't speak the language, but the reference I provided earlier points to at least one of them praising Bin Laden.

Now, the celebrations occurred on the same day, and at approximately the same time as the terrorist attacks. If you're claiming that they were celebrating for some other reason, that would be a very big coincidence, would it not?

[hot enough]

12 minutes ago, segnosaur said:

 

13 minutes ago, segnosaur said:

You don't need to melt all the columns equally. When one column looses strength, remaining columns end up having to take on more of the resulting load.

 

As I mentioned: "A scientific paper shows that WTC1 would have self arrested within two floors. That study pointed out the large errors in the science that NIST relied on to come to their unscientific conclusions." 

[hot enough]

7 minutes ago, segnosaur said:

I don't speak the language, but the reference I provided earlier points to at least one of them praising Bin Laden.

And why wouldn't they, moreover why shouldn't they?

[Altai]

Just now, segnosaur said:

Some of the other news organizations include newspapers (who would not have been shooting video). The Snopes reference I provided points to the Los Angeles times as having reporters who confirmed the Palestinian reactions (which included celebrations).

It should also be pointed out that several other organizations that attempted to film Palestinian celebrations were prevented from doing so by Palestinian authorities. (This was also mentioned in the Snopes reference.)

 

 

I don't speak the language, but the reference I provided earlier points to at least one of them praising Bin Laden.

Now, the celebrations occurred on the same day, and at approximately the same time as the terrorist attacks. If you're claiming that they were celebrating for some other reason, that would be a very big coincidence, would it not?

Are you aware of it, you are just creating conspiracy stories according to what you want to believe, while I am asking questions to find what is truth. 

I am asking a simple question, why noone talking to the cameras ? 

Here I also find a video that claims these people are offered some cake to dance in front of cameras.
 

 

[capricorn]

1 hour ago, hot enough said:

Do you engage in lots of discussions on 9-11?

 

Oh yeah. I hear these discussions all the time as I sip my dark roast at Timmy's.