fellowtraveller Posted December 6, 2004 Report Share Posted December 6, 2004 Proportional representation seems to be a mainstay of NDP policy, nationally and federally. The NDP would gain many seats in most provinces and federally. There are two provinces - Sakatchewan and Manitoba - where this is not the case. Introduction of proprep would result in a loss of seats for the NDP governments, in Manitobas case they would lose their majority. Yet despite being in power off and on for decades, the NDP governments in these two provinces have not implemented this NDP policy mainstay, there are no plans for proprep in either province. Seems to be an integrity problem here, or is this exception just a 'coincidence'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellowtraveller Posted December 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 must be just a coincidence, everybody agrees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmy Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 Good post. Yes, it's remarkable how politicians' perspective changes when they're on the inside instead of on the outside. Like Paul Martin's talk of addressing the democratic deficit while ... aside from a few soundbites during the election, I don't think he's even mentioned the democratic deficit since he became PM. -kimmy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blue Machine Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 We don't need PR. The party who gets the most seats wins. You don't need to have the most votes to win. You can have the most votes but get them in the wrong places. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maplesyrup Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 For a progressive group of folks it does seem a bit inconsistent. Look at what is taking place in BC as well! For a political party that insists your membership be for the same party both federally and provincially, one would imagine they would have the same policies, however it is not always the case. I suppose that is why some members ignore the federal/provincial rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest eureka Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 PR is not so simple. Apart from all the arguments for and against it would be well to consider the "might-have-beens and the might-not-have-beens" of legislation. Would there have been , for example, Free Trade or a Charter of Rights with PR. There are a lot of other things we have or do not have that would have been different under PR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellowtraveller Posted December 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 It's only inconsistent if you believe that the NDP have more integrity than the other parties. Apparently they do not, they are opportunists like the rest. Glad we could put that claim to rest. For the record, and I checked, proportional represntation is part of the NDP party platform in BC, Alberta, Ontario and federally of course. In all of these jurisdictions, the NDP would benefit from proprep. I did not check east of Ontario. Saskatchewan and Manitoba NDP do not support proprep and have not implemented it despite decades of opportunity. Of course, they would not benefit from it. Democratic deficit, I better not hear Jack Layton speaking about it again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blue Machine Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 We don't need it. The election process is fine. It's not the fault of the electoral system that the NDP doesn't have alot of seats. They need to the votes in the right places. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maplesyrup Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 As much as possible, everybody's vote should count, and the closest way for that to happen is some form of PR. Unless you don't believe in democracy of course. People are so reluctant to change - too bad, as change is the only consistent thing in life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellowtraveller Posted December 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 I do fervently believe in democracy, if only we could convince the NDP party to do the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maplesyrup Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 Why are you afraid a real democracy that the Layton/Broadbent NDP promotes, instead of the FPTP pseudo-democracy that often effectively disenfranchises up to 60% of the voters in Canada? For a thorough understanding of the issues involved: fairvotecanada.org That is if you believe in fairness. Lots of people mouth the word democracy, but actually only pay lip service to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 People are so reluctant to change - too bad, as change is the only consistent thing in life.Yes, of course, progressive people favour the advance of society, we must change and adapt to create a better good.For example, in civilized societies, slavery is a thing of the past. Child labour too. We must progress. Ever onwards. But MS, I think fellow traveller has made the point that the Sask and Manitoba NDP are against this particular change. Why? Maybe all changes are not good. MS, maybe "progress" is sometimes a bad word! (Remember that, MS?) Or maybe the NDP considers its electoral chances and considers PR that way. IOW, maybe the NDP is self-interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maplesyrup Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 New Democrats are self interested, but what party isn't? Liberals and the Conservatives are exhibiting self interest when they oppose PR. Do you think the federal Liberals would allow a candidate like Mary Polak who ran for the BC Campbell Liberals in a supposedly safe Liberal riding, and got trounced recently by the New Democrats, would be allowed to run for the federal Liberals. I think NOT! The question is wherther one is a real democrat or NOT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 The question is wherther one is a real democrat or NOT!On the contrary, the question is whether one is self-interested or not.At the moment, the federal NDP would get more seats by a PR election. New Democrats are self interested, but what party isn't?The NDP has no principles? What is the self-interest of the NDP? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maplesyrup Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 Like equal health care for all, the majority of Canadians if they are not there already there, will soon be demanding a solid proportional representation voting system in Canada, as proposed by Jack Layton and Ed Broadbent, in order to have a fair and real democratic voting system in Canada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blue Machine Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 PR will lead to constient minority governments, so there will be no stability in House of Commons. The system right now works, lets keep it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newfie Canadian Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 I'd leave the House of Commons alone and change the Senate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellowtraveller Posted December 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2004 That is if you believe in fairness Oh I do, very much. I just wonder why the NDP doesn't - unless it's convenient of course. Still waiting for an explanation of why the NDP policy changes when it suits them. Don't they believe in 'fairness' in Saskatchewan and Manitoba? Two faced hypocrites by the evidence, with plenty of apologists tucked in bed with them too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maplesyrup Posted December 9, 2004 Report Share Posted December 9, 2004 Say what you like about them but the people of Saskatchewan and Manitoba are very happy with their current New Democratic governments, as they keep on re-electing them with majority governments. No one can say that about Ottawa, eh! By the way I heard that former Liberal Saskatchewan MLA Colin Thatcher was today, once again, denied release from prison. Do you think he is going to get back into politics when he is released in 2008? Maybe he and the Grant Devine government are a few of the reasons why the people in Saskatchewan keep their New Democratic government, eh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest eureka Posted December 9, 2004 Report Share Posted December 9, 2004 Still waiting for an explanation of why the NDP policy changes when it suits them. You can take your tongue out of your cheek,now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellowtraveller Posted December 10, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2004 Say what you like about them but the people of Saskatchewan and Manitoba are very happy with their current New Democratic governments, as they keep on re-electing them with majority governments. You mean a MINORITY of the people in those two provinces elect the NDP governments, contrary to NDP policy everywhere else. I don't want to hear any more whining when it happens elsewhere, hypocrite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realwannabe Posted December 10, 2004 Report Share Posted December 10, 2004 PR will lead to constient minority governments, so there will be no stability in House of Commons. The system right now works, lets keep it. We have minority governments before, they worked well. 75 democracies in the world have some form of PR , if its that unstable than why is it so popular and why do people keep using it? And the provincal NDP doesnt have to agree with the federal NDP in any issues, i dont think. I am not sure, but thats not the point of this thread. This is to talk about the electoral system, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maplesyrup Posted December 10, 2004 Report Share Posted December 10, 2004 Say what you like about them but the people of Saskatchewan and Manitoba are very happy with their current New Democratic governments, as they keep on re-electing them with majority governments. You mean a MINORITY of the people in those two provinces elect the NDP governments, contrary to NDP policy everywhere else. I don't want to hear any more whining when it happens elsewhere, hypocrite. ft........no party in power wants to give up its power, however I can assure you that eventually every provincial and federal governemnt in Canada will have some form of PR, in order that the voters are fairly represented in the legislatures and parliament. Why don't you believe in a real democracy where everybody's vote is as equal as possible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blue Machine Posted December 10, 2004 Report Share Posted December 10, 2004 Sure, sometimes minority governments have worked. They only work for at most 2 years. We can't have happening. Plus, our electoral system is completely fair right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest eureka Posted December 10, 2004 Report Share Posted December 10, 2004 This discussion might gain some value if it would get around to the merits and demerits of PR AND look at what happens under some such system. You're a leftie.. nyah....nyah...nyah is about the level of contribution so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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