Newfoundlander Posted January 28, 2017 Report Share Posted January 28, 2017 On 2017-01-26 at 9:45 PM, Derek 2.0 said: Well you should care........Harper figured out one of the few winning formulas, and the next leader will need to repeat said formula.......unless you're expecting Mulroney 2.0 Why not a Mulroney 2.0? Why not a Bernier 1.0? a Chong 1.0? Yes, Harper was successful and people know what he did to win. The party needs to move on past Harper just like they have moved on from other past leaders of the predecessor parties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted January 28, 2017 Report Share Posted January 28, 2017 Kellie Lietch put out an email yesterday basically calling Maxime Bernier a closet separatist. In this e-mail, I want to talk about something that is really serious, and that is Maxime’s past support for Québec separatists. Maxime worked for the Parti Québecois in the late-1990s. He donated money to them in the early 2000s. When confronted with those facts he described his time with the separatists as a “flirtation”. He said he was a “token right-wing guy” and no one ever asked him if he was a sovereignist. But that’s not what Bernard Landry said about his former protégé. “To work in my office you had to be independandiste, which he said he was,” Landry said. “I believed him and I still believe him.” Landry also said that Bernier told him that Québec independence is “inevitable”. Bernier is all over the map. He says he voted “No” in the 1995 referendum but then worked for the separatists — having to be a separatist to do so. We know what the pattern is — Maxime says one thing and does another and that makes him unfit for leadership. I’m glad Maxime is a federalist today but who knows what tomorrow brings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueblood Posted January 28, 2017 Report Share Posted January 28, 2017 13 minutes ago, Argus said: Kellie Lietch put out an email yesterday basically calling Maxime Bernier a closet separatist. In this e-mail, I want to talk about something that is really serious, and that is Maxime’s past support for Québec separatists. Maxime worked for the Parti Québecois in the late-1990s. He donated money to them in the early 2000s. When confronted with those facts he described his time with the separatists as a “flirtation”. He said he was a “token right-wing guy” and no one ever asked him if he was a sovereignist. But that’s not what Bernard Landry said about his former protégé. “To work in my office you had to be independandiste, which he said he was,” Landry said. “I believed him and I still believe him.” Landry also said that Bernier told him that Québec independence is “inevitable”. Bernier is all over the map. He says he voted “No” in the 1995 referendum but then worked for the separatists — having to be a separatist to do so. We know what the pattern is — Maxime says one thing and does another and that makes him unfit for leadership. I’m glad Maxime is a federalist today but who knows what tomorrow brings. Bodes well for scheer and O'Leary. Leitch can flail around all she wants she's done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted January 28, 2017 Report Share Posted January 28, 2017 8 hours ago, blueblood said: olearys meat and potatoes are the economy and I believe a policy convention soon after would be in short order. Policy is determined by the party, once O'Leary acknowledges that, then he'll cement his place within the party. Until he clarifies his past statements on the military and gun ownership, I have zero inclination to support him as party leader. 8 hours ago, blueblood said: this is going to be an economic election which will play into olearys raison d'être. O'Leary's positions on the economy, though poorly defined, are not any different then most of the other field.......but, as I said last year, he is currently positioned to better communicate it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueblood Posted January 28, 2017 Report Share Posted January 28, 2017 1 minute ago, Derek 2.0 said: Policy is determined by the party, once O'Leary acknowledges that, then he'll cement his place within the party. Until he clarifies his past statements on the military and gun ownership, I have zero inclination to support him as party leader. I'm pretty sure he knows that, however to win the leadership race he has to show he's an alpha. That's his selling feature - the ability to articulate and communicate effectively fiscal conservatism. The fiscal side is more important than the fluff that trips up other Tories in the media. I'm sure some back room deals will be done to incorporate some fluff into policy. 1 minute ago, Derek 2.0 said: O'Leary's positions on the economy, though poorly defined, are not any different then most of the other field.......but, as I said last year, he is currently positioned to better communicate it He is better at playing the media game than the others. Lietch says her thing and then hides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted January 28, 2017 Report Share Posted January 28, 2017 His position on gun ownership would make him very electable in most parts of the country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted January 28, 2017 Report Share Posted January 28, 2017 33 minutes ago, Newfoundlander said: Why not a Mulroney 2.0? Why not a Bernier 1.0? a Chong 1.0? Yes, Harper was successful and people know what he did to win. The party needs to move on past Harper just like they have moved on from other past leaders of the predecessor parties. Mulroney was reliant upon Quebec (separatists) and his never ending herding of Quebec cats led to alienation of the West and furthered the Reform movement....unless you want a generation of Trudeau, Mulroney's path is not one to repeat..........Chong doesn't sell in the West. Bernier's libertarian ethos put him in a position akin to Social Credit......something that works in both Quebec and the West. Harper was able to herd conservative cats of many different stripes, the next leader will also have to do this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted January 28, 2017 Report Share Posted January 28, 2017 24 minutes ago, Argus said: Kellie Lietch put out an email yesterday basically calling Maxime Bernier a closet separatist. If true, that only furthers my support of him..........I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of Western separation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted January 28, 2017 Report Share Posted January 28, 2017 8 minutes ago, Smallc said: His position on gun ownership would make him very electable in most parts of the country. It would be very popular among people who would pour acid in their eyes rather than vote for a conservative of any kind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted January 28, 2017 Report Share Posted January 28, 2017 5 minutes ago, Smallc said: His position on gun ownership would make him very electable in most parts of the country. Maybe in NDP and Liberal ridings in Toronto and Montreal, but not actual Conservative ridings, leading a party that has policies voted on by membership that run counter to his past statements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted January 28, 2017 Report Share Posted January 28, 2017 1 minute ago, Argus said: It would be very popular among people who would pour acid in their eyes rather than vote for a conservative of any kind. And it would be very popular among the rump Libertarian Party, which would benefit from former conservatives........and of course, the division of the right would enshrine a Trudeau dynasty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted January 28, 2017 Report Share Posted January 28, 2017 15 minutes ago, Argus said: It would be very popular among people who would pour acid in their eyes rather than vote for a conservative of any kind. I would vote for him if he had the right economic policies. Not everyone that ever leans conservative cares about guns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted January 28, 2017 Report Share Posted January 28, 2017 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Smallc said: I would vote for him if he had the right economic policies. Not everyone that ever leans conservative cares about guns. True, but then there is a reason why several of those running for the leadership are active posters at CGN, likewise most running have or are in the process of obtaining their RPAL......and its not because Canadian gun owners don't carry influence within the party.......several million Canadians with money, that vote and are politically active are the reason O'Leary attempted to walk back some of his statements on guns, last night on ET Canada....... Edited January 28, 2017 by Derek 2.0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueblood Posted January 28, 2017 Report Share Posted January 28, 2017 1 minute ago, Derek 2.0 said: True, but then there is a reason why several of those running for the leadership are active posters at CGN, likewise most running have or are in the process of obtaining their RPAL......and its not because Canadian gun owners don't carry influence within the party.......several million Canadians with money, that vote and are politically active are the reason O'Leary attempted to walk back some of his statements on guns, last night on ET Canada....... Sounds like being an astute politician. Either way Andrew scheer is set up looking pretty for at minimum a high profile cabinet post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted January 28, 2017 Report Share Posted January 28, 2017 2 minutes ago, blueblood said: Sounds like being an astute politician. Either way Andrew scheer is set up looking pretty for at minimum a high profile cabinet post For gun owners, the winds a blowing towards Scheer, O'Toole and Bernier.........I notice O'Leary says he's a gun owner, some consider it astute and others cheap pandering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueblood Posted January 28, 2017 Report Share Posted January 28, 2017 6 minutes ago, Derek 2.0 said: For gun owners, the winds a blowing towards Scheer, O'Toole and Bernier.........I notice O'Leary says he's a gun owner, some consider it astute and others cheap pandering. The winds are blowing towards O'Leary, take a look at the polls and how rapidly he can raise money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted January 28, 2017 Report Share Posted January 28, 2017 1 minute ago, blueblood said: The winds are blowing towards O'Leary, take a look at the polls and how rapidly he can raise money I wouldn't start the victory lap just yet......lets see if he shows up at the next debate and how many people he gets to join the party to vote for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueblood Posted January 28, 2017 Report Share Posted January 28, 2017 Just now, Derek 2.0 said: I wouldn't start the victory lap just yet......lets see if he shows up at the next debate and how many people he gets to join the party to vote for him. Let's hope it's an actual debate and not a sound bite fest. Trost, obrhai, blaney, need to exit stage right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newfoundlander Posted January 28, 2017 Report Share Posted January 28, 2017 1 hour ago, Derek 2.0 said: Mulroney was reliant upon Quebec (separatists) and his never ending herding of Quebec cats led to alienation of the West and furthered the Reform movement....unless you want a generation of Trudeau, Mulroney's path is not one to repeat..........Chong doesn't sell in the West. Bernier's libertarian ethos put him in a position akin to Social Credit......something that works in both Quebec and the West. Harper was able to herd conservative cats of many different stripes, the next leader will also have to do this. Mulroney may have screwed up after getting the coalition but he still was able to find a message that resonated across all of Canada, something Harper never really did. The party needed to move on from Mulroney, the same applies for Manning, Day, Clarke, Harper etc. A leader needs to be leading their own party, not their predecessor's party. The country is going to be a lot different in 2019 than it was in 2006 when Harper first won. Whoever succeeds him has to find their own winning coalition. If Harper's coalition had been so great he'd be Prime Minister at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted January 28, 2017 Report Share Posted January 28, 2017 1 hour ago, Newfoundlander said: Mulroney may have screwed up after getting the coalition but he still was able to find a message that resonated across all of Canada, something Harper never really did. Sure, but then like Trudeau, he promised all things to everyone........clearly he was never able to keep his promises, nor will Trudeau, and decimated the party........Harper's promises were largely grounded in reality, but didn't "inspire" people with magical fantasy land like Trudeau. 1 hour ago, Newfoundlander said: The party needed to move on from Mulroney, Oh the party sure did....they ran away from him (and Campbell) and into the wilderness for the next decade. 1 hour ago, Newfoundlander said: The country is going to be a lot different in 2019 than it was in 2006 when Harper first won. Whoever succeeds him has to find their own winning coalition. If Harper's coalition had been so great he'd be Prime Minister at the moment. No, Harper (and Mulcair) pitched reality to Canadians.......Trudeau promised everything to everyone....and look how that's working out. When Trudeau's time is done, he'll go out like his father and Mulroney, banishing his own party into the wilderness.......the question, will that be in 2019 and who is going to benefit and return us to reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newfoundlander Posted January 28, 2017 Report Share Posted January 28, 2017 So the Conservative should not be any different than they were under Harper because they shouldn't have lost to Trudeau and people will eventually realize it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted January 28, 2017 Report Share Posted January 28, 2017 5 minutes ago, Newfoundlander said: So the Conservative should not be any different than they were under Harper because they shouldn't have lost to Trudeau and people will eventually realize it? Exactly............Trudeau won by not being boring Harper........Our next PM will have won by not being manic Trudeau. Solidifying the party base and then winning back moderate swing voters with an economic message (and not being Trudeau) will be the winning formula. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted January 28, 2017 Report Share Posted January 28, 2017 16 hours ago, Derek 2.0 said: as I said, if he wins the leadership, I'll still vote Tory... I've never understood blind faith to a political party.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted January 28, 2017 Report Share Posted January 28, 2017 37 minutes ago, The_Squid said: I've never understood blind faith to a political party.... You're assuming my motivations are "blind faith".......for example, this Spring will likely be the first time I haven't voted for the BC Liberals/Social Credit since I've started voting decades ago..... The Federal Conservative (like the Canadian Alliance, Reform and Progressive Conservatives before them) Party is the only party, with a chance of forming Government, that comes closest to matching my own values and ethos........the Liberals, NDP and Greens (I'd considered them in the past) have little to offer me and a bunch of things I don't like........Maybe the Libertarians if they ever became viable or the current CPC fractured like the PCs did in the 90s. --------------- Said ethos and values are why I support Bernier for the leadership, but assuming he doesn't win, I would still support most of the others, knowing full well the Party is more about the membership then the leader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted January 28, 2017 Report Share Posted January 28, 2017 15 minutes ago, Derek 2.0 said: The Federal Conservative (like the Canadian Alliance, Reform and Progressive Conservatives before them) Party is the only party, with a chance of forming Government, that comes closest to matching my own values and ethos Is you value continually slagging others, and offering nothing yourself? Just like when Ignatieff was leader of the Liberals, the only thing on conservative.ca was their `Just Visiting` bull, and now it is mostly slagging Trudeau. Conservative stand for nothing, they are simply angry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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