Martin says Canada can defend itself

[Argus]

Paul Martin says Canada doesn't need the Americans help in securing Canada's borders and ports from terrorist threats.

Speaking at a Liberal fundraiser in Toronto, the Prime Minister says he told U-S President George Bush that Canada can defend its part of North America.

Well isn't that the kind of precious, noble, righteous talk all the nationalist Canadians love to hear!

But uhm, there are a few problems.

1) Our Coast Guard is underfunded to the extent that its old, slow, poorly equipped ships spend much of their time tied up at dock for lack of fuel

2) Mr. Martin abolished the Canada Ports Police, which has left our ports wide open to smuggling, organized crime and infiltration of drugs, weapons and illegal aliens.

3) Border Services Canda (Customs) is perpetually underfunded and undermanned, to say nothing of unarmed, and cannot adequately search goods entering Canada.

4) The RCMP is perpetually underfunded and undermanned and cannot either patrol borders (it recently withdrew men from the US/Canadian border in Ontario and Quebec for lack of funding), nor properly investigate smuggling or defend against smuggling of weapons, drugs or people. It has ceased even investigating many non-violent crimes such as fraud, including immigration fraud.

5) CSIS is also perpetually underfunded and undermanned, as well as being unarmed. It cannot adequately perform its job of defending against foreign espionage or terrorist groups operating in Canada, and has said so. Repeatedly.

6) And then there's our military. Do I need to even go there? What with submarines that won't submerge, helicopters that won't fly, ships that don't have enough personnel to leave dock, ancient aircraft, tanks and APCs older than, not just the young men in them, but their senior commanders, and too few infantry men to handle even part of the duties we keep assigning them.

So how is it we're going to secure our borders and ports and defend ourselves again?

[shackwacky]

Perhaps Argus, he was referring to the fact that we haven't been threatened?

[Argus]

Perhaps Argus, he was referring to the fact that we haven't been threatened?

Well, but we have. In fact. Al Quaeda put us as number five, I believe, on its target list, after only the US, Israel, Britain and Australia.

[shackwacky]

The last terrorist action in Canada was......

Number 5 on a list allegedly put together by Al Q. After pretty much every member of the coalition of the willing. Has me considering putting a bomb shelter in beside the root cellar.

[kimmy]

Perhaps Argus, he was referring to the fact that we haven't been threatened?

Aside from that, the idea of securing our part of North America doesn't just mean not being attacked.

It also means we have to be prepared to prevent fellows like this chap:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Ressam

...from operating within Canada.

-kimmy

[Stoker]

Perhaps Argus, he was referring to the fact that we haven't been threatened?

Get your head out of your arse.......

"And here's Cheney and Powell, killing and destroying many in Baghdad, more than ... Holako, the king of the Tatars," says the voice. "So why are your governments allying themselves with America in attacking us in Afghanistan, especially to mention Britain, France, Italy, Canada, Germany and Australia?"

'Bin Laden's message'

What do your governments want from their alliance with America in attacking us in Afghanistan?

I mention in particular Britain, France, Italy, Canada, Germany and Australia.

Unfortunately, I'm affraid that it will take an attack on Canada, for the government and Canadians as whole to pull their heads out from the sand and realize that we live in a very dangerous world.......it's a bloody shame that we don't learn from past mistakes, ours and other peoples.

[Newfie Canadian]

Martin appears to be a reasonably intelligent man, so I assume the only reason he would say such nonsense is he is delusional.

Look at suveillance flights off the coast of NL.

Used to be handled by the Coast Guard, but is now handled by Transport Canada.

They reduced the flights from several a week to a few a month. There was recently evidence of an illegal bilge dump, but no one has any idea who is responsible.

Unfortunately, I'm affraid that it will take an attack on Canada, for the government and Canadians as whole to pull their heads out from the sand and realize that we live in a very dangerous world

Yep.

[Choke]

I think we have a choice to make:

A} Stop supporting US military actions, this would mean complete withdrawl from Aghanistan and the Persian Gulf. If we did this, we'd have to start shopping around for a new trading partner.

Your security is in your own hands. And every state that doesn't play with our security has automatically guaranteed its own security.

-Osama Bin Laden in his last address to the American people

or

B} Start funding the institutions that will allow us to support America wholeheartedly.

Either way, this problem has been caused by a ten year waffle on defence...the Liberals say they want to fund it, but they never do.

[shackwacky]

There was recently evidence of an illegal bilge dump, but no one has any idea who is responsible.

Unfortunately, I'm affraid that it will take an attack on Canada, for the government and Canadians as whole to pull their heads out from the sand and realize that we live in a very dangerous world

Yep.

Okay. Was this a terrorist bilge dump?

[Choke]

LMAO@terrorist bilge dump

[Stoker]

A} Stop supporting US military actions, this would mean complete withdrawl from Aghanistan and the Persian Gulf. If we did this, we'd have to start shopping around for a new trading partner.

Thats not an option, of the nations mentioned by OBL, we are one of the few that hasn't been hit yet. Sadly, it's only a mater of time.

QUOTE (Newfie Canadian @ Dec 4 2004, 10:22 PM)

There was recently evidence of an illegal bilge dump, but no one has any idea who is responsible.

QUOTE 

Unfortunately, I'm affraid that it will take an attack on Canada, for the government and Canadians as whole to pull their heads out from the sand and realize that we live in a very dangerous world

Yep.

Okay. Was this a terrorist bilge dump?

I'm glad you find humor in that........I find it sad that we can't catch a ship that dumped it's grey water into the ocean.......how do we expect to be able find a determind terrorist.

B} Start funding the institutions that will allow us to support America wholeheartedly.

Either way, this problem has been caused by a ten year waffle on defence...the Liberals say they want to fund it, but they never do.

It goes back further then 10 years.......Mulroney and Clark didn't do much for the armed forces. IMHO, St. Laurent and Pearson's work was dismantled by Trudeau in the late 60s.

[Newfie Canadian]

Well, at least Stoker got the point.

[Argus]

The last terrorist action in Canada was......

Number 5 on a list allegedly put together by Al Q.  After pretty much every member of the coalition of the willing.  Has me considering putting a bomb shelter in beside the root cellar.

Am I to take it your position is we should wait until the buildings start falling down before we take precautions?

And what about protecting our borders against other threats like boatloads of illegal immigrants or drug or weapon smuggling? We've spent $2 billion on a long gun registry which has accomplished nothing. Spending a tenth that on policing the US/Can border to stop weapons smuggling would have done infinitely more for us.

[Choke]

Thats not an option, of the nations mentioned by OBL, we are one of the few that hasn't been hit yet. Sadly, it's only a mater of time.

I fully believe what he said about any nation that withdraws its forces being exempt from attack. It would be a huge diplomatic victory for him, he wouldn't want to mess it up.

It goes back further then 10 years.......Mulroney and Clark didn't do much for the armed forces. IMHO, St. Laurent and Pearson's work was dismantled by Trudeau in the late 60s.

You're right.

[Hawk]

I learn from my mistakes and the mistakes of my ancestors, appeasement NEVER WORKS.

If a terrorist threatens my country, my family, or my friends I refuse to hide, wimper, and beg them to not do anything.

I absolutely REFUSE to live my life in fear of some washed up afghani leader and by God I can't stand people who defend people that threaten our nation (yet call themselves Canadian) and who think that having a Canadian military or a capable CSIS is a radical right-wing ideology.

Canada needs to step up to the plate, we once were a great nation that was respected worldwide by socialist and capitalists alike. However we have allowed ourselves to lose our place in the world, and I think its high time we at least ATTEMPTED to regain it.

Dont let some little prick terrorist from Afghanistan run our country, and stop being such f*king cowards.

[Choke]

I learn from my mistakes and the mistakes of my ancestors, appeasement NEVER WORKS.

By this standard, the entire Muslim world should declare war on the US, because the US is the aggressor here, not the "terrorists".

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Hawk,

If a terrorist threatens my country, my family, or my friends I refuse to hide, wimper, and beg them to not do anything.

I think you've been reading too much US propaganda.

Not so long ago, Talisman Energy sold it's operations and withdrew from Sudan. The reason? They were tired of the bad press associated with killing the local populace by proxy, in order to reap large profits. (The gov't troops, funded by Talisman money, would simply kill anyone who wanted to farm the land, or share in the profits)

Now, many were Muslims. As in other places where this goes on.

Now, OBL is saying to the West," you have killed my brother's family and taken his wealth. You have killed my cousin's family.... now I have had enough and will attack your family until you stop attacking mine". Yet you call him a 'terrorist' when he claims it is ( facts and history will back this up)...self-defence.

appeasement NEVER WORKS.

Is ceasing aggression and 'theft', appeasement? Is a mugging victim who fights back a terrorist?

[ndpnic]

It doesn't matter about the shape our military is in.

Canada minds it's own business on the global scale.

We DO NOT run around the world telling other nations that WE know the best way to live, and govern, Force them to bend to our will!!!!

Canada does not need a large Super Army, because we don't give reason to Hate or Attack us!!!!!

[The Terrible Sweal]

As the Bush Doctrine and this administration continue to make the world a more dangerous place, Canada should definitely improve our independent military capability. In addition to improving our existing forces and equipment, we should develop a small but robust nuclear deterent capability. (I suggest a fleet of maybe a half dozen long-submersion submarines armed with a few nuclear armed ICBMs and cruise missiles.)

The important thing, however is to use this ramp up to benefit domestic knowledge and manufacturing -- I.e. develop our own military-industrial complex.

[Newfie Canadian]

I'm pretty sure Martin has indicated that the world needs more democratic nations, and that Canada should be and will be helping in that.

A military, a well funded and well equipped military, is essential to that goal. Not neccessarily as democracy making, but as democracy keeping.

Look at Afghanistan, our troops are there to ensure that democracy is not taken away.

Martin has talked about Haiti. It wasn't diplomacy that helped Haiti in the last few months, it was the troops, helping to bring back and ensure democracy.

Martin has talked about Suadan, same thing.

And that's for other places in the world, let alone our own border protection and security.

I only hope Martin means what he says:

Now, we're going to be increasing our troop levels substantially, both our regular troops and our reserves. We're in the process of getting that under way.

From an interview with Wolf Blitzer last Sunday.

[fellowtraveller]

The very first priority of any federal government, regardless of ideology, is to ensure the safety/security of its citizens.

If Martin fails to ensure this, and the pathetic state of security - which has worsened in the last few years despite an obvious threat- is allowed to continue, he will never be forgiven.

The government has put itself in a difficult position by promising the moon in ever-expanding social programs, while neglecting the most important issue of all. Spending some serious coin on our safety and security while limited resources are bled from our collective pockets by universal day care, gun registries, Adscam etc? The chickens will inevitably come home to roost for Mr. Martin and for all of us. Of course, we'll do the usual then and blame the Americans for our problems.

Our country remains in desperate need of leadership.

[Black Dog]

There's definitely soem good arguments to be made for beefing up Canada's domestic security (and I don't mean illegal detentions without trial or secret tribunals, or any of teh otehr heinous practices we're adopting under the radar). Our borders need to be watched, our coasts and ports secured, no question.

But none of this requires a big military investment, particularily at a time when there are so many other funding areas that should take precedence (health, education, infrastructure).

Our security is not based on our ability to go to war, be it on the coattails of imperial aggression or under the guise of "peacekeeping." Indeed, Canada faces only one potential threat that can be addressed through military might and that's the U.S. So it can be reasonably assummed no amount of investment in the armed forces would could that threat (though an AK-47 under every bed seems to suffice). Similarily, it's been shown that military force is no defense against those determined to commit acts of terrorism. In that case, a big military is only good for vengance: not exactly a value to build a policy around.

Therefore, our focus should be on updating our military and civil capabilities soley for the purposes of countering real, demonstratable threats to our security, soverignty and territorial integrity.

[Newfie Canadian]

I would argue that even the modest improvements you suggest, that is to be able to secure the borders, coasts and ports, would require a substantial increase in funds, equipment and personel after a decade+ of neglect and cost cutting, BD.

Housing for new recruits is not up to par, naval equipment is insufficient to protect the thousands and thousands of kilometers of coastline, etc, etc.

It will require a substantial increase in funding and resources.

[fellowtraveller]

But none of this requires a big military investment, particularily at a time when there are so many other funding areas that should take precedence (health, education, infrastructure).

If not in military, then in the RCMP or CSIS. Call it what you will, but as much as you may wish it otherwise - you cannot have it both ways.

[Black Dog]

I learn from my mistakes and the mistakes of my ancestors, appeasement NEVER WORKS.

An empty statement if there ever was one. What is apeasement and van you give any examples of such a policy in a modern-day context?

f a terrorist threatens my country, my family, or my friends I refuse to hide, wimper, and beg them to not do anything.

So what are YOU doing about it?

I absolutely REFUSE to live my life in fear of some washed up afghani leader and by God I can't stand people who defend people that threaten our nation (yet call themselves Canadian) and who think that having a Canadian military or a capable CSIS is a radical right-wing ideology.

yetyou ar eperfectly willing to live in fear of terrorism. Your statements bely that fear, a fear that is being exploited and manipulated for political purpose. Shouldn't that piss you off more than the ramblings of a cave dwelling autocrat?

Canada needs to step up to the plate, we once were a great nation that was respected worldwide by socialist and capitalists alike. However we have allowed ourselves to lose our place in the world, and I think its high time we at least ATTEMPTED to regain it.

What place is that? Why this obsession by the right with status. We're not angling for the slot of homecoming king; it's not a popularity contest. What other nations think of us should be irrelevant when considering what policies would best benefit Canadians first and foremost.

Dont let some little prick terrorist from Afghanistan run our country, and stop being such f*king cowards.

[quibbble] OBL is a Saudi [/quibble]

What's more an act of cowardice: neglecting important priorities in favour of paranoia-driven militarism? Or simply going about the business of building a better society, a society that could be a benchmark of fairness, justice and reason for the world.