Should Harper Resign?

[maplesyrup]

Article

Some Conservatives on the Web discussion forum  Free Dominion are concerned about Harper turning the party into what they call "Liberal Lite"

And this week, Financial Post columnist Terrance Corcoran wrote a stinging column about Harper's vote winning strategy that began with "Conservatism is dying in Canada. Not just dying; it is being murdered and deliberately removed from the political scene by strategists."

"The Conservative party is abandoning conservative values as part of a deliberate strategy orchestrated by party insiders, including some of Mr. Harper's old brain trust," wrote Corcoran.

"Disappointed at their election loss, hungry to be in on power, they have come to believe that victory will only come to a party that shifts toward the centre and beyond. They have polls to back their strategy, showing Canadians might not want less government, lower taxes and greater individual freedom."

And a Post editorial that appeared on Thursday was even more direct.

"Our opposition leader needs to see in Mr. Bush's convincing re-election last month that electoral success is possible, but only if he clearly delineates himself and his party from his opponents," the Post said. "He also needs needs to start speaking out more forcefully on subjects of concern to conservative Canadian voters."

The Post went on to conclude Harper's softening positions are all about trying to win votes in Quebec.

"Mr. Harper seems consumed by just one objective -- appeasing Quebec nationalists so his party can make a breakthrough in that province next time around."

I had thought long before Stephen Harper was chosen leader of the Conservatives, he wasn't going to cut it, as a prime minister of Canada. Who should the Conservatives consider replacing him with? Belinda Stronach?

[kimmy]

I don't get it. All the quotes in that article are from people who think moving away from right-wing values is a mistake... why would they think Stronach is a better choice?

-kimmy

[Choke]

This is nothing new. Mulroney wasn't exactly a "Conservative", and that's why he was able to win. Western rural moral values don't sell in Ontario and Quebec and they never will. BC and Alberta should seceed.

[ticker]

The old tories were just a different name for liberal. We don't need liberal and liberal lite; but as you say western moral values don't sell in upper/lower Canada.

[maplesyrup]

This is nothing new. Mulroney wasn't exactly a "Conservative", and that's why he was able to win. Western rural moral values don't sell in Ontario and Quebec and they never will. BC and Alberta should seceed.

Don't mix up BC and AB. They are like night and day!

Actually the rest of Canada has been trying to figure out how to get rid of AB for a long time. Maybe now is the time - let's make a switch. We'll take Vermont, Alaska, Hawaii, Wahington and Oregon in exchange. The ratio is just about right as well: 10:1

[fellowtraveller]

Get rid of Alberta.

Good plan. I'd vote for that, though for different reasons.

[Choke]

Don't mix up BC and AB. They are like night and day!

There are two BCs, one made up of Vancouver and Victoria, and one made up of the rest of the province. The rest of the province has much more in common with Alberta than it does with Vancouver and Victoria. When I said seceed, I mean we should form our own country, not join America. BC and Alberta together would be far richer than Canada, because inside Canada we get dragged down by the have-nots.

[shackwacky]

LOL I find myself agreeing with Choke.

I am from BC, now living in Alberta. Immigration to this province is pretty common.

And if the "rest of Canada" (can I see where they elected you spokesman maplesap?) want to get rid of Alberta, I suggest they start looking around for another obscenely resource rich province to keep up the transfers to the have nots.

Long live King Ralph

[Choke]

Klein has stated he's not interested in federal politics...but mabye if there was a new federation, he'd be interested in being Prime Minister.

[Choke]

Here we go with the "We care about the Newfies too" rhetoric again

Ugh...Harper is whoring out the CPC to anyone who'll vote for it. First he wants to pander to Atlantic Canada, then to Quebec, and most of all to urban Ontario. He should just admit where he stands and rejoin the Liberals.

Conservatism in Canada is hopeless.

[Hawk]

Personally I never liked Stephen Harper much... I totally supported Stockwell Day however, in fact I can't believe he got voted out. He was very firm on conservative issues and that is what in the end killed him.

Its sick that in Canadian politics these days you are considered radical to even hold an opinion, its like if you aren't socialist you are a nazi.

As for you that want to kick out Alberta, bring it on b*tches... you think we like being part of a confederation that treats us like that? Heck I love being Canadian but to be totally honest I have never felt connected with Eastern Canada (never even been there), I have never seen or met a Canadian PM, and I have never seen Western Canada be appreciated. To be totally honest with you it seems almost like Ontario is a seperate country than Alberta, here Ralph rules and he rules the way we like (and he does a dam good job of it, and now our debt is gone and we have a decent economy despite issues like the BSE crisis).

In fact, I doubt I would notice if we seceded from Canada, what would change other than that we wouldn't have to pay so many taxes? What would change other than we could actually vote and our votes would count for something? What would change other than Alberta would have a stronger military than the rest of Canada? =p

[Choke]

Hawk's right.

[Boondoggle]

Heck I love being Canadian but to be totally honest I have never felt connected with Eastern Canada (never even been there), I have never seen or met a Canadian PM, and I have never seen Western Canada be appreciated.

Well maybe you should get to know your country a little bit better.

To be totally honest with you it seems almost like Ontario is a seperate country than Alberta, here Ralph rules and he rules the way we like (and he does a dam good job of it, and now our debt is gone and we have a decent economy despite issues like the BSE crisis).

Hmm... Maybe exporting more oil to the US than Saudi Arabia in the last couple years might have something to do with clearing the debt? Just a thought.

In fact, I doubt I would notice if we seceded from Canada, what would change other than that we wouldn't have to pay so many taxes?

In order to afford everything and have low taxes, you need to have more people paying taxes, and Toronto has a bigger population than Alberta.

Alberta's economy depends on oil, which happens to be expensive to produce. Oil from Alberta's oil sands has a cost of about $12 per barrel to produce vs a dollar or less from a country like Saudi Arabia. In other words, the success gained from the oil sands depends on relatively high oil prices. In addition, you use up natural gas and water supplies to produce it. Increased oil exports to the US, and higher oil prices over the last couple of years have resulted in more money. Wow, how brilliant Ralph must be to do that.

What you would notice is less economic diversity, that Canada benefits from by being united, and Alberta would be more vulnerable to changes in the oil market.

What would change other than we could actually vote and our votes would count for something?

There are only two real ways your vote would mean something: you either vote the same way as the majority in your riding, or switch to proportional representation.

What would change other than Alberta would have a stronger military than the rest of Canada?

With a smaller population and lower taxes, I'd like to know how you'd be able to afford it. Also, unless you want to totally depend on the US for everything, most of the Defence industry in Canada is in the east.

[kimmy]

Heck I love being Canadian but to be totally honest I have never felt connected with Eastern Canada (never even been there), I have never seen or met a Canadian PM, and I have never seen Western Canada be appreciated.

Well maybe you should get to know your country a little bit better.

I *have* lived in Ontario, and I never got the impression that Western Canada was appreciated either.

In fact, I doubt I would notice if we seceded from Canada, what would change other than that we wouldn't have to pay so many taxes?

In order to afford everything and have low taxes, you need to have more people paying taxes, and Toronto has a bigger population than Alberta.

Affording everything just depends on revenue.

It's well known that "the cost of confederation" is about $7 billion a year for Alberta. That is, add up all the money that comes into Alberta from the federal government, then subtract all the money that leaves Alberta to the federal government, and Alberta comes out behind by about $7 billion every year. $2000 for every man, woman, and child.

Alberta's economy depends on oil, which happens to be expensive to produce. Oil from Alberta's oil sands has a cost of about $12 per barrel to produce vs a dollar or less from a country like Saudi Arabia. In other words, the success gained from the oil sands depends on relatively high oil prices. In addition, you use up natural gas and water supplies to produce it. Increased oil exports to the US, and higher oil prices over the last couple of years have resulted in more money. Wow, how brilliant Ralph must be to do that.

Yes, yes. High oil prices are good for Alberta. I think we got that. Given ongoing situations in the world, and increasing scarcity of petroleum resources, I wouldn't expect oil prices dropping below $12 a barrel any time soon (or ever...)

The oilsands aren't Alberta's only resource, anyway.

What you would notice is less economic diversity, that Canada benefits from by being united, and Alberta would be more vulnerable to changes in the oil market.

Alberta's economy would not be any less diverse. Alberta's economy would be exactly as vulnerable to oil market changes as it is right now.

With a smaller population and lower taxes, I'd like to know how you'd be able to afford it. Also, unless you want to totally depend on the US for everything, most of the Defence industry in Canada is in the east.

Canada's defence industry is in the east?

Those English-built submarines? Those new American-built Sikorsky helicopters that are supposed to replace the Sea Kings? Our fleet of American-built F-18s?

Does the Canadian military fly Bombarier commuter-jets into battle? What Eastern Canadian defence industry are we talking about here? The occasional make-work project for Halifax shipyards?

-kimmy

[August1991]

$2000 for every man, woman, and child.

Hey, that's about a DVD rental per day. Surely "Canada" is worth that?

[kimmy]

$2000 for every man, woman, and child.

Hey, that's about a DVD rental per day. Surely "Canada" is worth that?

I don't know anybody who watches a DVD rental per day. It could also be, say, a fair chunk of somebody's post-secondary tuition...

Is Canada worth it? Maybe; some people might disagree. When I see this attitude that Alberta is some kind of blight on Canada that the rest of Canada wishes would go away, it makes me wonder.

-kimmy

[The Terrible Sweal]

... Alberta should seceed.

Not with our oil, you don't!

[Newfie Canadian]

Tommy Douglas said it best.

Canada is like an old cow. The West feeds it. Ontario and Quebec milk it. And you can well imagine what it's doing in the Maritimes."

I haven't read all the posts, so I'll respond to the question posed in the title of the thread.

No he should not resign.

The reason he lost the last election was because of Liberal fear mongering, aided by loud stupid comments by some loudmouthed CPC candidates.

Get a policy convention under your belt and have another go.

If he loses the next one, find a new leader.

[Big Blue Machine]

I LOVE THAT QUOTE, it's so true. Sadly for the vey east.