H10 Posted November 28, 2016 Report Share Posted November 28, 2016 No one wil address the elephant in the room. Canada has among the highest tax rates in the world, higher than most Scandinavian countries but has services of a middle income nation at best. This is because Canada has rampant government corruption. If all the money gone on gas plants, e health, hydro scandal this scandal and that was put into the country, we wouldn't need 60% tax rate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted November 28, 2016 Report Share Posted November 28, 2016 1 hour ago, hernanday said: No one wil address the elephant in the room. Canada has among the highest tax rates in the world, higher than most Scandinavian countries Completely and utterly false. The following countries (among many others) have higher taxes than Canada (in order highest to lowest) Denmark Belgium France Sweden Finland Norway Italy Austria Germany Iceland Netherlands Greece Spain Israel New Zealand Brazil United Kingdom Turkey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted November 28, 2016 Report Share Posted November 28, 2016 19 minutes ago, ?Impact said: Completely and utterly false. The following countries (among many others) have higher taxes than Canada (in order highest to lowest) Denmark Belgium France Sweden Finland Norway Italy Austria Germany Iceland Netherlands Greece Spain Israel New Zealand Brazil United Kingdom Turkey Would be nice to see a cite there. It's funny all those countries are so taxed yet they still can have a separate private system without having their public system collapse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted November 28, 2016 Report Share Posted November 28, 2016 7 minutes ago, Boges said: Would be nice to see a cite there. It's funny all those countries are so taxed yet they still can have a separate private system without having their public system collapse. There are literally thousands of sources that list the taxes collected by country (e.g. world bank). I am using the wikipedia article that is based on the heritage foundation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted November 28, 2016 Report Share Posted November 28, 2016 Just now, ?Impact said: There are literally thousands of sources that list the taxes collected by country (e.g. world bank). I am using the wikipedia article that is based on the heritage foundation. Still, if you're going to make a claim, back it up with a legitimate source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted November 28, 2016 Report Share Posted November 28, 2016 4 minutes ago, Boges said: Still, if you're going to make a claim, back it up with a legitimate source. So you will discard my source yet take an alternative claim based on zero (I repeat zero) information? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted November 28, 2016 Report Share Posted November 28, 2016 Just now, ?Impact said: So you will discard my source yet take an alternative claim based on zero (I repeat zero) information? I thought it was common knowledge that Canada's form of single-payer healthcare is not common globally. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-payer_healthcare Quote The term "single-payer" thus describes the funding mechanism, referring to healthcare financed by a single public body from a single fund, not the type of delivery or for whom physicians work. The British system is technically not single payer, as it consists of a number of financially and legally autonomous trusts and private health insurance options are also allowed. Only Canada and Taiwan have true single-payer systems.[2] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted November 28, 2016 Report Share Posted November 28, 2016 Just now, Boges said: I thought it was common knowledge that Canada's form of single-payer healthcare is not common globally. I thought it was common knowledge that the sky is blue, but what the frig does that or your statement have to do with the false claim made by hernanday? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted November 28, 2016 Report Share Posted November 28, 2016 (edited) 4 minutes ago, ?Impact said: I thought it was common knowledge that the sky is blue, but what the frig does that or your statement have to do with the false claim made by hernanday? I was just wanting a source for the fact that all those countries have higher rates of taxation. North Korea has 100% taxation, doesn't make it great. Brazil doesn't seem to be doing well with its high levels of taxation. It's all kind of relative. But if the discussion is healthcare, Canada's refusal to allow a second tier of healthcare for people who can pay is something that many nations with high taxation and quality of life don't even do . Edited November 28, 2016 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted November 28, 2016 Report Share Posted November 28, 2016 4 minutes ago, Boges said: I was just wanting a source for the fact that all those countries have higher rates of taxation. So you call the American version of the Fraser Institute illegitimate, yet this whole article was based on a Fraser Institute study. 7 minutes ago, Boges said: But if the discussion is healthcare, Canada's refusal to allow a second tier of healthcare for people who can pay is something that many nations with high taxation and quality of life don't even do . Yes, Canada doesn't want to degrade our first tier healthcare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted November 28, 2016 Report Share Posted November 28, 2016 Just now, ?Impact said: Yes, Canada doesn't want to degrade our first tier healthcare. Doesn't seem to degrade the European systems that are seen as more evolved when it comes to taxation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted November 28, 2016 Report Share Posted November 28, 2016 1 minute ago, Boges said: Doesn't seem to degrade the European systems that are seen as more evolved when it comes to taxation. As has already been addressed earlier, do a direct comparison to whatever system you like and then we can see the real differences. Making blanket high level claims is bogus. Include the higher education system that doesn't leave health care professionals with monstrous debts to repay. Include the drug and dental plans that are part of the systems, etc. When you do a real comparison it is clear that the private insurance lobby in this country is out to fill their pocketbooks and nothing else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H10 Posted November 28, 2016 Report Share Posted November 28, 2016 31 minutes ago, ?Impact said: There are literally thousands of sources that list the taxes collected by country (e.g. world bank). I am using the wikipedia article that is based on the heritage foundation. Your source is wrong. It only counted Canadian federal tax rates, and completely ignored that Canadians have provincial tax rates, sales taxes that many of the countries on your list do not have, both federal and provincial sales taxes and a series of hidden labor taxes that are levied by the government to cpp and ei etc. When all taxes are accounted for, you will see Canadians are #2 in the world for paying taxes, and carbon taxes and global adjustment is on the way for those in ontario. We are going to be most taxed on the planet. There is no reason we should have road tolls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted November 28, 2016 Report Share Posted November 28, 2016 Just now, hernanday said: Your source is wrong. It only counted Canadian federal tax rates, and completely ignored that Canadians have provincial tax rates, sales taxes that many of the countries on your list do not have, both federal and provincial sales taxes and a series of hidden labor taxes that are levied by the government to cpp and ei etc. When all taxes are accounted for, you will see Canadians are #2 in the world for paying taxes, and carbon taxes and global adjustment is on the way for those in ontario. We are going to be most taxed on the planet. There is no reason we should have road tolls. Bullshit. I went for a source that tried to look at total taxation. If you have any real source then provide them and stop making completely baseless claims. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H10 Posted November 28, 2016 Report Share Posted November 28, 2016 Just now, ?Impact said: Bullshit. I went for a source that tried to look at total taxation. If you have any real source then provide them and stop making completely baseless claims. You have to use the cra website and foreign jurisdiction, but since I've lived in both Norway and Ontario, I can look on my own tax returns. Canada also has far less deductions than most other countries, in the USA all kinds of things from interest on mortgage and other expenditures like property upkeep are tax deductions for many people, not true in canada for individuals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted November 28, 2016 Report Share Posted November 28, 2016 5 minutes ago, hernanday said: You have to use the cra website and foreign jurisdiction, but since I've lived in both Norway and Ontario, I can look on my own tax returns. Canada also has far less deductions than most other countries, in the USA all kinds of things from interest on mortgage and other expenditures like property upkeep are tax deductions for many people, not true in canada for individuals. Canada has the biggest deduction of all, capital gains on your primary residence - the exact thing you are talking about with those other deductions. Yes, it is a different system, and I'm not sure which is the best overall, but complaining about one and ignoring the other is ridiculous. The comparison I am looking at above however is based on total taxes, and not just some phoney rate while ignoring deductions. That is why I went with the net, so a true comparison could be made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H10 Posted November 28, 2016 Report Share Posted November 28, 2016 12 minutes ago, ?Impact said: Canada has the biggest deduction of all, capital gains on your primary residence - the exact thing you are talking about with those other deductions. Yes, it is a different system, and I'm not sure which is the best overall, but complaining about one and ignoring the other is ridiculous. The comparison I am looking at above however is based on total taxes, and not just some phoney rate while ignoring deductions. That is why I went with the net, so a true comparison could be made. Most other countries have the same deduction. And ask how much money do you put into your property before you get this capital gain. Other countries permits similar behaviour but you get to deduct all the cost of maintaining. And no, it is not the exact thing. In the USA, if you pay a guy to mow your lawn, it is a TAX DEDUCTION, if you pay someone to maintain your property, these are TAX deduction, every repair. In Canada, these generally are not deductions for individuals. In Canada, your mortgage interest is not a tax deduction! I am not ignoring one, I am pointing out to you they have additionaly tax benefits. " The way that mortgages are treated in the Canadian tax code is slightly different than in the U.S. One main difference is that the interest on a mortgage for a principal private residence in Canada is not tax deductible. However, no taxes are payable on any capital gains upon selling the home. " Investopedia, hope that clears things up for you. You are looking just at the total federal rate, which is illogical because many states have little to no income taxes at ALL. Canada has a variety of taxes that the usa does not, provincial, sales, federal and provincial sales. USA has no federal sales tax! When you factor in all the taxes, Canada is #2 in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted November 28, 2016 Report Share Posted November 28, 2016 4 minutes ago, hernanday said: When you factor in all the taxes, Canada is #2 in the world. Could you provide a source for that, as I have above which lists Canada far down in the list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted November 28, 2016 Report Share Posted November 28, 2016 First of all, there's no actual wait times info in this report. CIHI has actual wait time info. Fraser has an ideological report. Second: 4 minutes ago, ?Impact said: Could you provide a source for that, as I have above which lists Canada far down in the list. You're right - it's total taxes, and he's wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted November 28, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2016 38 minutes ago, ?Impact said: As has already been addressed earlier, do a direct comparison to whatever system you like and then we can see the real differences. Well, came upon this which suggests the average wait time for someone going to hospital in California before getting in to see a doctor is - 24 minutes. In Canada the suggested time is 3 hours but many hospitals fail to meet that. Waits of 6 hours are not unusual, and longer in some jusidictions. https://projects.propublica.org/emergency/hospital/050232 http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/hospital-er-times-reveal-some-disturbing-waits-1.2767867 https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2016/01/28/er-rooms-failing-to-meet-wait-time-goals-by-a-long-shot.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted November 28, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2016 (edited) This is from a couple of years ago, but I've seen nothing to suggest things are getting any better. Earlier this month, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) released a major survey on international health care waiting lists and policies. Canada is at the bottom of the pack in almost every category. One example among many: 25 per cent of Canadian patients waited more than four months for non-emergency, elective surgery, the highest proportion of any country reported. The figure is 18 per cent in Australia and seven per cent in France, Switzerland and the United States. The OECD also reveals Canada to be one of five countries (out of a survey of 22) that report major wait-time problems in all six possible health care categories—from emergency rooms to long-term care. http://www.macleans.ca/politics/when-it-comes-to-waiting-canada-is-last-in-line-2/ Edited November 28, 2016 by Argus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted November 28, 2016 Report Share Posted November 28, 2016 Again, that's not comparable. 24 minutes is the time to see a doctor. The numbers that provinces like Ontario publish are to time of discharge from the ER. This on the other hand: http://www.wrha.mb.ca/wait-times/index.php Is more like what you're talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted November 28, 2016 Report Share Posted November 28, 2016 1 minute ago, Argus said: Well, came upon this which suggests the average wait time for someone going to hospital in California before getting in to see a doctor is - 24 minutes. In Canada the suggested time is 3 hours but many hospitals fail to meet that. Waits of 6 hours are not unusual, and longer in some jusidictions. Do you have any comparison that looks at wait times based on how the patients were assessed. In Canada we use a five tier scale to determine the urgency of the case, the Canadian Triage and Acuity Scale (CTAS). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted November 28, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2016 3 minutes ago, ?Impact said: Do you have any comparison that looks at wait times based on how the patients were assessed. In Canada we use a five tier scale to determine the urgency of the case, the Canadian Triage and Acuity Scale (CTAS). Read the third cite I posted, from the Star. It does mention that triage system, and that we're failing at it on all levels. Only about 10 per cent of emergency room patients in the Toronto-area health networks deemed to be at the second-highest priority level — conditions such as a severe asthma attack or drug overdose — were seen by a doctor within the recommended time frame of 15 minutes Obvious since other countries don't use it you can't have an international comparison, but the mere fact that our system recommends a maximum 3hr wait for non urgent conditions compared to an 'average' wait of 24 minutes elsewhere is telling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted November 28, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2016 Canada ranks last among 11 OECD countries in a new survey in terms of how quickly people can get in to see their regular family physicians, showing "where a person lives does matter," says the Health Council of Canada. The finding was published in the council's final bulletin, based on data from the 2013 Commonwealth Fund International Health Policy Survey of the General Public http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canadian-patients-wait-longest-to-see-family-doctors-1.2501468 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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