Female Chess players required to wear Hijabs in Iran

[Boges]

Meh really bugs you huh?

Well, M - E - H .... MEH!

My mehs here, however, are really about what a petty little issue this is.

You want to use it to hit people over the head as to how bad Iran is etc etc..

Well, we know they are bad. This is hardly the reason I think they are bad - bring up something more substantive such as the professor lady recently released from their jail for being "feminist" in her views.

But oh no, can't have people putting on ninja pjs and enjoying competing in a chess tournament while they are irked at wearing said ninja pjs.

I'm not even going that far. Sure Iran is a bad place. I saw Argo.

I'm more asking if wearing Ninja PJs a reasonable accommodation one should make. I don't believe it is, and a governing body asking this of its players/chessmasters/whatever is something that should be criticized.

Let me flip it. In Rio, some news was made about Egyptian Beach Volleyball players wearing full coverings. Look how tolerant we are to allow that in a sport where the normal attire is a bikini. Now, as mentioned, there are European nations that aren't as friendly to such coverings. Would it be discriminatory to force these Egyptian Beach Volleyball players to wear a bikini? Or would that just be meh too?

Edited September 30, 2016 by Boges

[Boges]

Part of being a human is tolerating other cultural practices.

Being "forced" to tolerate them because the Chess Association has thrust Iran on them is "meh" worthy because it is a trivial annoyance.

Yes, it is not right.

No, it is not worth the gnashing of teeth.

Well we're on a Canadian political forum where debates often descent into the minutia of trivial topics. Or debate the larger context of otherwise trivial topics. AM Talk Radio wouldn't exist without such dialogue.

[msj]

I'm not going that far. Sure Iran is a bad place. I saw Argo.

I'm more asking if wearing Ninja PJs a reasonable accommodation one should make. I don't believe it is, and a governing body asking this of its players/chessmasters/whatever is something that should be criticized.

I did not know you were a grand chess master and, therefore, the right kind of person to make such statements.....

[Boges]

I did not know you were a grand chess master and, therefore, the right kind of person to make such statements.....

I have to be one to have an opinion on the matter. Even if I didn't, I'm simply highlighting that there are a faction of chess masters that do have a problem with it. And I'm stating an opinion on their behaviour.

Edited September 30, 2016 by Boges

[msj]

Let me flip it. In Rio, some news was made about Egyptian Beach Volleyball players wearing full coverings. Look how tolerant we are to allow that in a sport where the normal attire is a bikini. Now, as mentioned, there are European nations that aren't as friendly to such coverings. Would it be discriminatory to force these Egyptian Beach Volleyball players to wear a bikini? Or would that just be meh too?

It is meh worthy. I suppose that is less than "meh" worthy though since it didn't get it's own thread?

I disagree with forcing them to wear a bikini but I think "we" are better than "them" because we allow the freedom to wear clothing on a reasonable basis (even here we do not have complete freedom is what I'm saying).

[msj]

I have to be one to have an opinion on the matter. Even if I didn't, I'm simply highlighting that there are a faction of chess masters that do have a problem with it. And I'm stating an opinion on their behaviour.

Yes, I'm sure these people have all kinds of opinions that range from yours to mine to any Muslim's who think too bad, shut up, women should not be playing chess because it's a man's game.

I have never claimed to speak for any of them.

So, meh.

[Guest]

It is meh worthy. I suppose that is less than "meh" worthy though since it didn't get it's own thread?

I disagree with forcing them to wear a bikini but I think "we" are better than "them" because we allow the freedom to wear clothing on a reasonable basis (even here we do not have complete freedom is what I'm saying).

It would have gotten its own thread if they had been forced to wear a bikini.

I agree we are better than them.

Edited September 30, 2016 by bcsapper

[Boges]

It is meh worthy. I suppose that is less than "meh" worthy though since it didn't get it's own thread?

I disagree with forcing them to wear a bikini but I think "we" are better than "them" because we allow the freedom to wear clothing on a reasonable basis (even here we do not have complete freedom is what I'm saying).

It's a hypothetical that's why it doesn't get its own thread. Though there are a factions of feminists that believe the attire of Beach Volleyball is sexist, cause, you know, men don't wear the same outfit. Different debate, different thread.

It was previously mentioned that forcing a woman to wear a headcovering is as bad as telling them to take it off.

[Bonam]

Being "forced" to tolerate them because the Chess Association has thrust Iran on them is "meh" worthy because it is a trivial annoyance.

Hmm, I'm guessing that for someone who has spent most of their life working hard to have the opportunity to compete at the top of their field, not being able to go to the event without submitting oneself to a humiliating and backward cultural requirement might be more than a trivial annoyance. You're right, it's not life or death, and there are bigger things wrong in the world, but for the people affected it's hardly a "meh" issue.

[msj]

It's a hypothetical that's why it doesn't get its own thread. Though there are a factions of feminists that believe the attire of Beach Volleyball is sexist, cause, you know, men don't wear the same outfit. Different debate, different thread.

I'm sure we can find radical opinions for many things.

Doesn't mean they are worth discussing since they are so clearly absurd as to make them only acceptable to radical people.

[msj]

Hmm, I'm guessing that for someone who has spent most of their life working hard to have the opportunity to compete at the top of their field, not being able to go to the event without submitting oneself to a humiliating and backward cultural requirement might be more than a trivial annoyance. You're right, it's not life or death, and there are bigger things wrong in the world, but for the people affected it's hardly a "meh" issue.

For some it may be a mountain.

For others it may be a molehill.

As already stated, women don't get to do things like comfortably walk in a park alone at night in Canada which, imo, is a bigger issue as compared to the "humiliation" of respecting another culture's practice.

Edited September 30, 2016 by msj

[msj]

I agree we are better than them.

Yes we are!

But some, looking at you France, are putting up a fine challenge.

Edited September 30, 2016 by msj

[BC_chick]

It's a hypothetical that's why it doesn't get its own thread. Though there are a factions of feminists that believe the attire of Beach Volleyball is sexist, cause, you know, men don't wear the same outfit. Different debate, different thread.

It was previously mentioned that forcing a woman to wear a headcovering is as bad as telling them to take it off.

Weren't you one of the people who thought restaurants should have a right to require cleavage and high heels from women (as opposed to giving them choice) because they're a private establishment and anyone who doesn't like it should simply refrain from going to them?

[Boges]

Weren't you one of the people who thought restaurants should have a right to require cleavage and high heels from women (as opposed to giving them choice) because they're a private establishment and anyone who doesn't like it should simply refrain from going to them?

I think I may have. But a server's attire in a restaurant is more tied to job than a person playing chess. Workplaces have dress codes all the time. I'm annoyed that in the summer I have to wear pants (as opposed to shorts) and shoes in the office where women are allowed to wear skirts and sandals. It's hot you know!

This is much different than a chess player being told to wear a head covering, not because it's part of playing chess but because the country hosting the event mandates it.

Edited September 30, 2016 by Boges

[BC_chick]

I think I may have. But a server's attire in a restaurant is more tied to job than a person playing chess. Workplaces have dress codes all the time. I'm annoyed that in the summer I have to wear pants and shoes in the office where women are allowed to wear skirts and sandals. It's hot you know!

This is much different than a chess player being told to wear a head covering, not because it's part of playing chess but because the country hosting the event mandates it.

As a woman I don't know, they're both equally offensive. I would definitely not put on a burqa or chador for the life in me, but if I had to choose between wearing what is required of women in Iran and being forced to show cleavage and wear high heels, I'd say it's a tough call which one I find more offensive.

One suppresses while the other objectifies.

Both take away a woman's choice to wear what she wants.

Edited September 30, 2016 by BC_chick

[Boges]

As a woman I don't know, they're both equally offending. I would definitely not put on a burqa or chador for the life in me, but if I had to choose between wearing what is required of women in Iran and being forced to show cleavage and wear high heels, I'd say it's a tough call which one I find more offensive.

One suppresses while the other objectifies.

Both take away a woman's choice to wear what she wants.

OK, but the attire of a restaurant is part of the employment contract. As mentioned, dress codes are common place in workplaces.

This issue came up recently with an interview a woman rejected at The Body Shop.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/woman-told-by-the-body-shop-to-wear-full-face-of-makeup-to-job-interview-turns-it-down-1.3768927

I've never known Chess to be an activity where there's a dress code however. And there isn't it's a cultural stipulation being demanded by Iran.

Edited September 30, 2016 by Boges

[BC_chick]

OK, but the attire of a restaurant is part of the employment contract. As mentioned, dress codes are common place in workplaces.

This issue came up recently with an interview a woman rejected at The Body Shop.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/woman-told-by-the-body-shop-to-wear-full-face-of-makeup-to-job-interview-turns-it-down-1.3768927

I've never known Chess to be an activity where there's a dress code however. And there isn't it's a cultural stipulation being demanded by Iran.

Yes it is a cultural stipulation in Iran. Women have to throw a scarf on their head (even if their hair shows) and men have dress codes too (they can't wear shorts etc).

In fact, it's less sexist than our restaurant codes where only women are subjected to objectification and men aren't.

Personally, I'd rather see women in Iran *and* in Cactus Club having options so long as they are reasonable, but I do find it odd that you'd object to one and not the other.

Edited September 30, 2016 by BC_chick

[Boges]

But it is a cultural stipulation in Iran. Women have to throw a scarf on their head (even if their hair shows) and men have dress codes too (they can't wear shorts etc).

In fact, it's less sexist than our restaurant codes where only women are subjected to objectification and men aren't.

Personally, I'd rather see women in Iran *and* in Cactus Club having options so long as they are reasonable, but I do find it odd that you'd object to one and not the other.

Are chess players being asked to show cleavage and wear high heels?

Again, dress codes as a part of employment are common place.

If you were forced to wear revealing clothing as long as you're in Canada, I would have an objection to that as well.

You're comparing Apples and Oranges.

Edited September 30, 2016 by Boges

[BC_chick]

Are chess players being asked to wear cleavage and high heels?

Again, dress codes as a part of employment are common place.

If you were forced to wear revealing clothing as long as you're in Canada, I would have an objection to that as well.

You're comparing Apples and Oranges.

I honestly don't think it's apples and oranges, I'm showing you that you're comfortable forcing women to wear certain things under certain circumstances while standing on a soapbox shouting at those who do the same thing for different reasons.

1) Cleavage and high heels have nothing to with serving food, but you think it's a reasonable dress code just because it's a private establishment. You think any woman who doesn't like it should simply not work there even though those restaurants are the most lucrative places to work.

2_ Throwing a scarf on the back of one's head has nothing to do with playing chess but Iran thinks it's reasonable because they are a free nation (read - private establishment). Iran thinks any woman who doesn't like it should simply not go even though this is the most lucrative of the competitions out there.

You don't see the similarity?

[Boges]

I honestly don't think it's apples and oranges, I'm showing you that you're comfortable forcing women to wear certain things under certain circumstances while standing on a soapbox shouting at those who do the same thing for different reasons.

1) Cleavage and high heels have nothing to with serving food, but you think it's a reasonable dress code just because it's a private establishment. You think any woman who doesn't like it should simply not work there even though those restaurants are the most lucrative places to work.

2_ Throwing a scarf on the back of one's head has nothing to do with playing chess but Iran thinks it's reasonable because they are a free nation (read - private establishment). Iran thinks any woman who doesn't like it should simply not go even though this is the most lucrative of the competitions out there.

You don't see the similarity?

No because there are examples of dress codes being imposed on people as terms of employment all the time. The attire women are asked to wear at certain restaurants present a certain ambiance the the owners want to present. And women are free to not apply for jobs at these places.

In the case of the OP, women are being told to submit to a misogynistic government's cultural practices to play chess. And they're objecting to it by threatening to boycott, I'm asking if that's culturally insensitive and are the women right to boycott or pressure the governing body to change the location of the tournament.

If enough women opposed Hooters or Earls or The Tilted Kilts employment practices then they wouldn't have anybody applying to those jobs.

Edited September 30, 2016 by Boges

[BC_chick]

This is what you sound like if you were Iranian:

No because there are examples of dress codes being imposed on people as terms of residency all the time. The attire women are asked to wear at certain countries present a certain moral code that the the governing society want to present. And women are free to not play chess at these countries.

In the case of the restaurants, women are being told to submit to a misogynistic restaurant practices to serve food. And some women object to it by threatening to boycott, I'm asking if that's being too uptight and are the women right to boycott or pressure the Human Rights Commission in intervening and changing the unreasonable dress codes.

[msj]

If enough women opposed Hooters or Earls or The Tilted Kilts employment practices then they wouldn't have anybody applying to those jobs.

Yes, and if enough people in Iran stood up for women's rights then chess masters could go to Iran without having to wear ninja pjs.

[Boges]

Yes, and if enough people in Iran stood up for women's rights then chess masters could go to Iran without having to wear ninja pjs.

Which may still happen, hopefully. If not. . . meh

[Boges]

This is what you sound like if you were Iranian:

No because there are examples of dress codes being imposed on people as terms of residency all the time. The attire women are asked to wear at certain countries present a certain moral code that the the governing society want to present. And women are free to not play chess at these countries.

In the case of the restaurants, women are being told to submit to a misogynistic restaurant practices to serve food. And some women object to it by threatening to boycott, I'm asking if that's being too uptight and are the women right to boycott or pressure the Human Rights Commission in intervening and changing the unreasonable dress codes.

And you support the view of this fabricated Iranian?

Do you propose that Dress Codes be done away with altogether in Western Nations. If so, SWEET!!! I really want to wear shorts and Sandals to work.

Complete thread drift however. Please bump the Earls thread if you want to have that debate again. I believe plenty of reasons were given why they should be allowed to impose a dress code.

Edited September 30, 2016 by Boges

[msj]

Which may still happen, hopefully. If not. . . meh

Exactly!