B.C. lawsuit set to reignite debate about private health care

[Argus]

Canada does not ban private health care, only private insurance.

So instead of answering the question you pic nits? It not only bans private insurance it bans doctors who offer services privately from offering them through the public system and makes it virtually impossible for them to work in or offer surgery in any hospitals.

Edited September 3, 2016 by Argus

[Smallc]

So instead of answering the question you pic nits? It not only bans private insurance it bans doctors who offer services privately from offering them through the public system and makes it virtually impossible for them to work in or offer surgery in any hospitals.

If a doctor that is already overstretched in one system is suddenly allowed to operate in two systems, how does that make things better?

[TimG]

If a doctor that is already overstretched in one system is suddenly allowed to operate in two systems, how does that make things better?

Many specialists doctors are not able to work full time because the "system" imposes a quota on the number of surgeries they can perform in order to limit costs. This slack in the system is used by the WCB and the RCMP when they need to jump the queue. Edited September 3, 2016 by TimG

[Smallc]

Many specialists doctors are not able to work full time because the "system" imposes a quota on the number of surgeries they can perform in order to limit costs. This slack in the system is used by the WCB and the RCMP when they need to jump the queue.

And if that's the case, I'd be supportive of allowing them to work in both systems, so long as it didn't negatively affect the public system in any way (they'd still have to be filling their quota).

[TimG]

And if that's the case, I'd be supportive of allowing them to work in both systems, so long as it didn't negatively affect the public system in any way (they'd still have to be filling their quota).

That is what people want. I have no issue with rules that require doctors who bill the public system to take all work the public system wants to give them. I only have an issue with the ban on offering private services or insurance.

[Smallc]

That is what people want. I have no issue with rules that require doctors who bill the public system to take all work the public system wants to give them. I only have an issue with the ban on offering private services or insurance.

Then I agree with your position.

[Argus]

If a doctor that is already overstretched in one system is suddenly allowed to operate in two systems, how does that make things better?

Dunno. Ask the Germans or Swiss. Seems to work for them.

[Argus]

That is what people want. I have no issue with rules that require doctors who bill the public system to take all work the public system wants to give them. I only have an issue with the ban on offering private services or insurance.

It's also illegal to have a private hospital which accepts both public and private patients. So if there aren't enough surgery rooms available in a hospital then people have to wait.

Same goes for diagnostic tests. I remember reading a story about veterinarians using an MRI machine at a Toronto hospital for dogs and cats because the hospital only operated it during working hours. This despite humans waiting months to get an MRI.

Edited September 3, 2016 by Argus

[Smallc]

Dunno. Ask the Germans or Swiss. Seems to work for them.

Canada will always be less efficient than those places. Even though most of the population is centralized (though nothing like in those countries), we still have to fund and equip our far flung outlying areas.

Those countries aren't models that we can follow.

[The_Squid]

Same goes for diagnostic tests. I remember reading a story about veterinarians using an MRI machine at a Toronto hospital for dogs and cats because the hospital only operated it during working hours. This despite humans waiting months to get an MRI.

There are plenty of private MRI clinics. I can pay $600 and get an MRI next week. You clearly don't even understand what's available privately now, which puts your arguments into the category of "arguing for arguments sake".

[Smallc]

There are plenty of private MRI clinics. I can pay $600 and get an MRI next week. You clearly don't even understand what's available privately now, which puts your arguments into the category of "arguing for arguments sake".

And for more arguments sake, almost no one who needs an MRI now has to wait long at all.

[TimG]

And for more arguments sake, almost no one who needs an MRI now has to wait long at all.

Getting diagnostic tests in BC takes 3-6 months unless you have an emergency and it is ordered by the hospital.

Some tests you can get faster by paying a private clinic.

Others one has to wait for.

Edited September 3, 2016 by TimG

[Smallc]

Getting diagnostic tests in BC takes 3-6 months unless you have an emergency and it is ordered by the hospital.

I can't confirm that, but it would be atypical. Based on the Manitoba and Ontario wait time websites, it can range from a week for CT scans to an unacceptable 6 months for an MRI at some facilities (in Manitoba, the MRI wait ranges from 2 weeks to 27!). Note also, that those wait times measure the point at which 90% of the people have gotten the test, meaning that they don't actually generally wait 27 weeks.

[The_Squid]

Getting diagnostic tests in BC takes 3-6 months unless you have an emergency and it is ordered by the hospital.Some tests you can get faster by paying a private clinic.Others one has to wait for.

The gov't in BC is awful. They're doing a terrible job delivering healthcare. Privatizing everything is not the answer to bad governance.

[Smallc]

You can see here in this example from Nova Scotia, the massive difference between the 50% wait time and the 90% wait time:

https://waittimes.novascotia.ca/procedure/mri-nova-scotia-health-authority#waittimes-50

https://waittimes.novascotia.ca/procedure/mri-nova-scotia-health-authority#waittimes-90

[TimG]

The gov't in BC is awful. They're doing a terrible job delivering healthcare. Privatizing everything is not the answer to bad governance.

Allowing access to private services is about personal freedom. It has nothing to do with "fixing the system".

"Fixing the system" requires that costs be reduced via increases in productivity (which means better tech and/or wage cuts) or by reduction in demand (with healthier people).

Politicians that simply want to through money at the system are not "fixing it". They are just delaying the day of reckoning.

Edited September 3, 2016 by TimG

[The_Squid]

Allowing access to private services is about personal freedom. It has nothing to do with "fixing the system"."Fixing the system" requires that costs be reduced via increases in productivity (which means better tech and/or wage cuts) or by reduction in demand (with healthier people).Politicians that simply want to through money at the system are not "fixing it". They are just delaying the day of reckoning.

There are already private MRI clinics.

[TimG]

There are already private MRI clinics.

If you need an MRI. Does not do much good if you need an echo-cardiogram. More importantly, if the MRI uncovers an issue which needs surgery you can be forced to wait a long time if the issue is not immediately life threatening.

There are firms which specialize in finding treatment for BC residents in the US. Anyone who claims that we do not have a two-tier system already is fooling themselves. Why can't we have these clinics/hospitals in Canada so Canadians are employed?

Edited September 3, 2016 by TimG

[eyeball]

Why can't we have these clinics/hospitals in Canada so Canadians are employed?

Protectionism...of doctor's.

I'm all for having these clinics in Canada too but I'll still insist on making them accessible to everyone and paid for by one public insurer. Why?

Protectionism...of insurance companies.

Edited September 3, 2016 by eyeball

[dialamah]

I can't confirm that, but it would be atypical. Based on the Manitoba and Ontario wait time websites, it can range from a week for CT scans to an unacceptable 6 months for an MRI at some facilities (in Manitoba, the MRI wait ranges from 2 weeks to 27!). Note also, that those wait times measure the point at which 90% of the people have gotten the test, meaning that they don't actually generally wait 27 weeks.

I can confirm it takes 3 to 6 months minimum in BC. My partner has one scheduled for September, ordered in June. This one was relatively quick; a few years ago it was the full six months.

[Smallc]

I can confirm it takes 3 to 6 months minimum in BC. My partner has one scheduled for September, ordered in June. This one was relatively quick; a few years ago it was the full six months.

MRIs have been a problem in most provinces for the last decade. CTs, less so. It's really too bad. The number of machines is less a problem than qualified technicians. The lure of the US market is hard to resist for medical professionals.

[eyeball]

Again...what about the qualified technicians that aren't being allowed to work?

[Argus]

There are plenty of private MRI clinics. I can pay $600 and get an MRI next week. You clearly don't even understand what's available privately now, which puts your arguments into the category of "arguing for arguments sake".

Private MRI clinics are against the Canada health act. The only ones which exist are those in provinces where the provincial government has decided to ignore this.

[Argus]

And for more arguments sake, almost no one who needs an MRI now has to wait long at all.

In Ontario the average wait time is Ontario is 101 days, in Ottawa 138 days.

http://www.ontariowaittimes.com/Surgerydi/en/Service_Data.aspx?View=0&Type=0&Modality=3&ModalityString=3&ModalityType=4&ModalityTypeString=4&LHIN=&city=toronto&pc=&dist=0&hosptID=0&str=&period=0

MRIs have been a problem in most provinces for the last decade. CTs, less so. It's really too bad. The number of machines is less a problem than qualified technicians. The lure of the US market is hard to resist for medical professionals.

It has nothing to do with a shortage of technicians. It has to do with the money needed to pay for them.

[Smallc]

That isn't the average wait, it's the 90th percentile wait. Most people wait far less than the 90th percentile.