Canadian Immigration

[Argus]

In the past, I have assigned a number of resources for you to read and study before you spout your views. You have always refused to do so. If you spent half the time you spend on this board doing your homework instead of making uneducated comments on any and every topic then some of your arguments might have substance. But that would take up too much of your day and certainly endanger your claims to make enough money to be a millionaire.

So.... you got nothing but sneers. Quelle surprise.

You know, even the pope doesn't pronounce anathema on people without citing biblical law and scripture. You, apparently, believe your podium is considerably more lofty than his and your words should be graven on stone.

[Argus]

You are attaching document that shows recent immigrants from certain regions earn more (or less) than other regions. How is that related to your arguments that immigrants are burden to Canadians or a drag on economy!!!!!!.

First, that is not my argument. My argument is we should bring over only as many immigrants as professionals determine we need, with the mix of job skills, age and education which will best help our economy.

Second, I posted a couple of pieces of well-documented evidence to show you the difference between statistical studies and you using yourself as an example. Apparently you still are confused by the difference.

The number for the cost to the economy of our present immigration system comes from here.

Even with outdated 2005 statistics, the average income for recent immigrants (that is regions and age included) is about $32500 (that is (15000 + 50000)/2, which about a quarter of $20000 (income after personal exemption) goes to direct income tax.

You don't take an average by taking the top and low number and dividing by two. That is ridiculous. You need to know how many are at each position, and you have to check the other positions along the way. You clearly know nothing about statistics - or math.

You also seem to know little about how income tax is calculated. A person with $32k in income might pay income taxes, if he is single, but once you apply the basic personal exemptions (both federal and provincial), this could bring his net income down to something like $12k. If he has any dependents that would bring the net income down below zero. So no income taxes.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Argus

[WestCoastRunner]

First, that is not my argument.

Second, I posted a couple of pieces of well-documented evidence to show you the difference between statistical studies and you using yourself as an example. Apparently you still are confused by the difference.

The number for the cost to the economy of our present immigration system comes from here.

You don't take an average by taking the top and low number and dividing by two. That is ridiculous. You need to know how many are at each position, and you have to check the other positions along the way. You clearly know nothing about statistics - or math.

You also seem to know little about how income tax is calculated. A person with $32k in income might pay income taxes, if he is single, but once you apply the basic personal exemptions (both federal and provincial), this could bring his net income down to something like $12k. If he has any dependents that would bring the net income down below zero. So no income taxes.

What do you suggest we do with these low income earners that pay no income tax?

[Argus]

What do you suggest we do with these low income earners that pay no income tax?

That is not a question related to immigration. I would, however, suggest that when deciding who and how many immigrants we bring in we do our best to make sure as many as possible have higher earnings and as few as possible be destined for low skilled jobs where they will never earn enough to pay income taxes.

[WestCoastRunner]

That is not a question related to immigration. I would, however, suggest that when deciding who and how many immigrants we bring in we do our best to make sure as many as possible have higher earnings and as few as possible be destined for low skilled jobs where they will never earn enough to pay income taxes.

So if we increased minimum wage to 15 an hr would they end up paying income tax? Would that work for you?

[WestCoastRunner]

So if we increased minimum wage to 15 an hr would they end up paying income tax? Would that work for you?

And if we don't raise the minimum wage we will continue to require tfw because these minimum wage jobs are hard to fill for small service/fast food/agriculture workers that Canadians refuse to work at. There won't be a cashier at your local Tim Hortons to take your order, pick your fruit, bag your groceries.

[CITIZEN_2015]

First, that is not my argument. My argument is we should bring over only as many immigrants as professionals determine we need, with the mix of job skills, age and education which will best help our economy.

So we stand for the same thing but I guess you never bothered to read my previous posts on this topic. Did you?

The number for the cost to the economy of our present immigration system comes from here.

This is a flawed report. It ONLY considered NEWCOMERS. It does NOT track them after a few years or worse after many years to see that this newcomers have climbed up the ladder and have much higher incomes and hence paying much higher taxes, In full life most are net contributors big time. My first income was considerably lower than now or even a few subsequent years. This is ridiculous!!!!! In fact on second thought the report is not flawed you are. Because the report did say it is for newcomers and it is you who falsely expanded it to immigration and all immigrants.

I said immigration is like an investment in the LONG term. They may need help or have lower income initially but in long term they pay off big time.

You don't take an average by taking the top and low number and dividing by two. That is ridiculous. You need to know how many are at each position, and you have to check the other positions along the way. You clearly know nothing about statistics - or math.

I know that but you did NOT provide me with numbers for each position in your link did you!!!!! What I was supposed to do create my own? I did the best I could with AVAILABLE statistics that YOU provided. Geez!!!!!

You also seem to know little about how income tax is calculated. A person with $32k in income might pay income taxes, if he is single, but once you apply the basic personal exemptions (both federal and provincial), this could bring his net income down to something like $12k. If he has any dependents that would bring the net income down below zero. So no income taxes.

Wow I should ask you do my tax return next year. So someone with $32000 income only pays taxes on only $12000!!!!! That is a $32000 earner pays only $2500 in income tax and if he has ANY dependents then nothing at all. I let the readers decide on your statement.

Edited August 24, 2016 by CITIZEN_2015

[Bonam]

And if we don't raise the minimum wage we will continue to require tfw because these minimum wage jobs are hard to fill for small service/fast food/agriculture workers that Canadians refuse to work at. There won't be a cashier at your local Tim Hortons to take your order, pick your fruit, bag your groceries.

This argument is a fallacy. If a business can't find workers at a wage it is offering, it can offer a higher wage until it finds workers. That's how capitalism is supposed to work, that's how wages go up and prosperity is shared among the working class not just business owners. By importing people that are willing to work at lower rates of pay, all you are doing is causing wage stagnation. And if wages go up so much that it is no longer profitable to have a person bag your groceries, but people still need to buy groceries, then businesses will innovate with automation or other efficiencies. That's how you get both wage growth and innovation. Swamping the economy with hordes of desperate people willing to work any job at any price is not good for society.

[Bonam]

Wow I should ask you do my tax return next year. So someone with $32000 income only pays taxes on only $12000!!!!! That is a $32000 earner pays only $2500 in income tax and if he has ANY dependents then nothing at all. I let the readers decide on your statement.

You apparently don't even know about tax brackets since you don't pay 25% on your entire income anyway. So yes, you should get someone to do your tax return.

[taxme]

Not sure what the relevance is. The numbers have already been posted and discussed. We see the sudden upsurge in immigrant in the 1980s after the Tories had a cabinet meeting where their Toronto immigration minister promised them newcomers would vote Tory. But we knew that anyway.

Unless this is to say "Hey, we had way higher immigration back when the country was mostly empty" which is also irrelevant given, uh, the country was mostly empty then. Not to mention there was no need of skills or education or language, and no pogey or pensions or welfare if the newcomers didn't support themselves.

There should be no Canadian tax dollars being given to anyone who immigrates to Canada. If they want to come here then pay your own way. If after a number of years those new immigrants can't make a go of it well maybe it is time for them to think about heading back from whence they came. It is not my job to help any newcomer to Canada get started nor should any of my tax dollars be given to anyone arriving here, especially to refugees who do not deserve a cent from the Canadian taxpayer. If someone wants to sponsor a refugee and pay their bills for how ever long they want too then do so, go for it.

Enough of this bleeding heart nonsense that Canadians must try and save the rest of the world. Billions of tax dollars are blown on useless programs like multiculturalism, bilingualism, foreign-aid and refugees that could have been better spent on things more important for Canadians rather than for special interest groups who push our useless politicians into creating their pet projects, programs and agendas. We need more common sense and logic to be used in regards to our immigration policy, not less. Works for me.

[WestCoastRunner]

This argument is a fallacy. If a business can't find workers at a wage it is offering, it can offer a higher wage until it finds workers. That's how capitalism is supposed to work, that's how wages go up and prosperity is shared among the working class not just business owners. By importing people that are willing to work at lower rates of pay, all you are doing is causing wage stagnation. And if wages go up so much that it is no longer profitable to have a person bag your groceries, but people still need to buy groceries, then businesses will innovate with automation or other efficiencies. That's how you get both wage growth and innovation. Swamping the economy with hordes of desperate people willing to work any job at any price is not good for society.

Well according to many Canadians, minimum wage is working at lower wages, hence the need for tfw. How do you propose we attract Canadians to these jobs without raising minimum wage?

[Bonam]

Well according to many Canadians, minimum wage is working at lower wages, hence the need for tfw. How do you propose we attract Canadians to these jobs without raising minimum wage?

Don't import TFWs, and businesses that need workers will raise wages themselves to get the workers they need, without being forced to do so by the government.

[CITIZEN_2015]

You apparently don't even know about tax brackets since you don't pay 25% on your entire income anyway. So yes, you should get someone to do your tax return.

If you had bothered to READ my post in the previous page before posting you would have realized that I did the deductions and concluded that a single tax payer with income of $32500 pays about $5000 in annual income tax. This is NOT 25% of entire income.

[WestCoastRunner]

Don't import TFWs, and businesses that need workers will raise wages themselves to get the workers they need, without being forced to do so by the government.

It's not happening.

[taxme]

This argument is a fallacy. If a business can't find workers at a wage it is offering, it can offer a higher wage until it finds workers. That's how capitalism is supposed to work, that's how wages go up and prosperity is shared among the working class not just business owners. By importing people that are willing to work at lower rates of pay, all you are doing is causing wage stagnation. And if wages go up so much that it is no longer profitable to have a person bag your groceries, but people still need to buy groceries, then businesses will innovate with automation or other efficiencies. That's how you get both wage growth and innovation. Swamping the economy with hordes of desperate people willing to work any job at any price is not good for society.

Wow, someone here who shows a bit of common sense and logic for a change rather than this constant emotionalism and guilt complex that appears to run rampant here. Businesses get away with low wages because our governments help them to do so by bringing in more tfw's.

[Bonam]

Well according to many Canadians, minimum wage is working at lower wages, hence the need for tfw. How do you propose we attract Canadians to these jobs without raising minimum wage?

Here's an example. Earlier this year Walmart raised its lowest wage from $9 to $10:

http://money.cnn.com/2016/02/18/news/companies/walmart-worker-pay-raise/

Did they do this out of the goodness of their hearts? No. Did they do this because the government made them raise the minimum wage? No. They did this because the US economy is growing, unemployment rates are low and workers have choices on where to work, but Walmart still needs employees. Hence they increased the offered wage. And here is one of their competitors, Target doing the same:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-target-wages-exclusive-idUSKCN0XF2L4

Wages go up all by themselves when economies are growing and unemployment is low, no government mandated minimum wage increases necessary!

It's not happening.

Yes it is, see my examples above.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Bonam

[WestCoastRunner]

Here's an example. Earlier this year Walmart raised its lowest wage from $9 to $10:

http://money.cnn.com/2016/02/18/news/companies/walmart-worker-pay-raise/

Did they do this out of the goodness of their hearts? No. Did they do this because the government made them raise the minimum wage? No. They did this because the US economy is growing, unemployment rates are low and workers have choices on where to work, but Walmart still needs employees. Hence they increased the offered wage. And here is one of their competitors, Target doing the same:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-target-wages-exclusive-idUSKCN0XF2L4

Wages go up all by themselves when economies are growing and unemployment is low, no government mandated minimum wage increases necessary!

Yes it is, see my examples above.

Did this happen in Canada? And if so, did it reduce the need for tfw?

[taxme]

The EU model? The EU is falling to pieces as we speak as a result to its narrow sighted policies.

A sigh of relief to see the EU go down in flames hopefully very soon. It is a dictatorship. The only ones that have benefitted from the EU were corporations and banksters.

[Bonam]

Did this happen in Canada? And if so, did it reduce the need for tfw?

There is no need for TFW in Canada. TFWs are a detriment to the economy (and by the economy, I mean how well the economy works for everyone not just business owners) because they depress wages.

The links above demonstrate wages being increased to attract workers without government intervention, since you seemed to doubt that supply and demand happens.

Does this happen in Canada? Yes, Canadian businesses raise wages to attract workers all the time. Canada is not some magical land where supply and demand doesn't happen.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Bonam

[WestCoastRunner]

There is no need for TFW in Canada. TFWs are a detriment to the economy because they depress wages.

The links above demonstrate wages being increased to attract workers without government intervention, since you seemed to doubt that supply and demand happens.

Does this happen in Canada? Yes, Canadian businesses raise wages to attract workers all the time. Canada is not some magical land where supply and demand doesn't happen.

There is a definite need for tfw. Canadians refuse to work for industries that pay minimum wage as I mentioned above. Until minimum wages increase the demand for tfw will continue. You only need to look at towns dependent on agricultural workers, hospitality industries in tourist towns to understand this.

[taxme]

It is people like you who spread the hate by their lies and false statistics. I have given you real life figures and statistics and you have rebuffed by saying that the asian grocery you visited had all asian employees so again you generalized that all immigrants only hire immigrants. Well the Lebanese restaurant that I had my Supper last weekend had a Caucasian cook and a Caucasian waitress if that makes you happy so he created at least two jobs, As why unemployment is so high then blame yourself not immigrants. You don't look at the positive sides likely attributed to immigration that Canadians enjoying one of the highest standards of living in the world. Or their is a national health service for everyone unlike some countries where the sick receives no care and many die or have to live in despair. That Canada is a prosperous country. That Canadians are better off than most likely all of the countries in the world. No country in the world has zero employment rate. Not to mention that Canada is one of the few countries which was built on immigration and by immigrants. I guess that along while ago when your grand grand parents immigrated to Canada they too were blamed by people like you for all problems then? The 6.9% unemployment rate is one of the lowest in the world and you pick that up and pick an easy target and blame immigrants for that and all your personal problems too. That is what a loser would do.

If you want to know and get more information on the pros and cons of immigration then go to website IWC(ImmigrationWatchCanada)and learn something. It will be explained to you as to why our present day immigration policy is not all that great. Please let me know what you think, that is if you bother to take the time and go visit that website.

[Moonlight Graham]

This argument is a fallacy. If a business can't find workers at a wage it is offering, it can offer a higher wage until it finds workers. That's how capitalism is supposed to work, that's how wages go up and prosperity is shared among the working class not just business owners. By importing people that are willing to work at lower rates of pay, all you are doing is causing wage stagnation. And if wages go up so much that it is no longer profitable to have a person bag your groceries, but people still need to buy groceries, then businesses will innovate with automation or other efficiencies. That's how you get both wage growth and innovation. Swamping the economy with hordes of desperate people willing to work any job at any price is not good for society.

Once again the business owners win and the average Canadian worker loses. What a wonderful system we keep voting back in.

[CITIZEN_2015]

If you want to know and get more information on the pros and cons of immigration then go to website IWC(ImmigrationWatchCanada)and learn something. It will be explained to you as to why our present day immigration policy is not all that great. Please let me know what you think, that is if you bother to take the time and go visit that website.

Again if you had bothered to read my previous posts you would have realized that I also said that our existing immigration policy is not that great and needs improvements. I did say we need to change t SMART immigration. Take those who have a good chance of becoming long term significant tax payers. I also said immigration numbers should be cut in half. I also cited SELECTIVELY as very important factor we need to have not only based on future prospects but also cultural compatibility with Canadians in order to keep out undesirables from entering Canada in order to avoid social disturbances we witness in Europe by Muslim extremists. Did you read my post before you launched your attacks? Contrary to what you and your supporters may think I care about the well being of this country as much as you guys do. This is where I live and this is where I will be buried too.

Edited August 24, 2016 by CITIZEN_2015

[Bonam]

There is a definite need for tfw. Canadians refuse to work for industries that pay minimum wage as I mentioned above. Until minimum wages increase the demand for tfw will continue. You only need to look at towns dependent on agricultural workers, hospitality industries in tourist towns to understand this.

Like arguing with a broken record. Oh well, I tried.

[WestCoastRunner]

Like arguing with a broken record. Oh well, I tried.

Thanks for your effort.

Like arguing with a broken record. Oh well, I tried.

Why not respond to mg as well?