Your thoughts on official unilingualism?

[Benz]

So do you support this:

http://quebec.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/11/21/je-suis-souverainiste-clame-un-chef-innu-au-conseil-national-du-pq_n_8617932.html

The PQ applauded Picard after he said he was a sovereignist. Peladeau had invited him to speak to the PQ. Then, they learnt he was referring to being an Innu sovereignist and not a Quebec sovereignist, and that he was open to the partitioning of Quebec.

So, does sovereignty apply only to white cultures?

Picard NEVER mentionned that the natives should or target to seperate from Quebec. He just said that it could be a possiblity. When Picard said he is a sovereignist, I knew from the very start that he was talking about his own nation.

Québec has recognized the native nations and are negociating with them as nation to nation. Paix des Braves with the Cree, Nistasinam or something like that with the Innu. We have no problem to deal with them as nation.

The natives are neither Canadians, nor Québécois. They are Ojibway, Cree, Innus... they only try to find out what is the best outcome for them and I totally respect that. One thing for sure, they do not care at all and have absolutely no attach to the federal. They have no problem to seperate from Canada. Their only concerns are to get a better situation than what they have. With the federal, they are "indians", with us, they are natives.

[Machjo]

Tu serais beaucoup plus intelligent si tu savais parler français. Cela te ferait le plus grand bien. If the english canadian "can't do french", then he does not deserve the job. A more superior french speaking person will take its place. That is the way it is. Intelligent people get better jobs.

Now that's arrogant. What if a person is bilingual in French and LSQ or English and ASL or English and Ojibwa or Chinese or French and Innu or Arabic?

You just want a homogeneous Anglo-French Canada to the exclusion of all others?

[Benz]

I've eaten at restaurants in Scarborough that had only Chinese menus. The entire clientele was Chinese along with the staff. I was the only white guy in the restaurant. At another restaurant with an English-Chinees bilingual menu, there was another white guy in the restaurant. And no, there was no French.

Are you suggesting that I should have stood up in the middle of the restaurant and sing God save the Queen or Ô Canada!

Terre de nos aïeux like a good little Canadian?

I'm white, French is my mother tongue, I speak English, but I'm not going to piss on an entrepreneur's hard work because he won't make me the centre of his universe.

You might live in La Malbaie where it's wall to wall French, but residents of cosmopolitan cities live a different reality.

Read my lips. I DO NOT CARE. A chinese restaurant in Scarborough is the last of my concern.

If you want to discuss about the policy, you need to talk about the reasons why those policies are in place. You are totally avoiding them. So you are wasting your time.

[Benz]

Now that's arrogant. What if a person is bilingual in French and LSQ or English and ASL or English and Ojibwa or Chinese or French and Innu or Arabic?

You just want a homogeneous Anglo-French Canada to the exclusion of all others?

Seriously. What could possibly the need to have an Ojibway speaking person to serve canadians in the Ojibway language in Toronto, Montréal, Halifax or Vancouver. Tell me!

Again, you are avoiding the only thing that matter. The Ojibway are far more concerned about getting more sovereignty than having the right to not use French in New Brunswick.

You have no clue of what you talk about.

[Machjo]

Picard NEVER mentionned that the natives should or target to seperate from Quebec. He just said that it could be a possiblity. When Picard said he is a sovereignist, I knew from the very start that he was talking about his own nation.

Québec has recognized the native nations and are negociating with them as nation to nation. Paix des Braves with the Cree, Nistasinam or something like that with the Innu. We have no problem to deal with them as nation.

The natives are neither Canadians, nor Québécois. They are Ojibway, Cree, Innus... they only try to find out what is the best outcome for them and I totally respect that. One thing for sure, they do not care at all and have absolutely no attach to the federal. They have no problem to seperate from Canada. Their only concerns are to get a better situation than what they have. With the federal, they are "indians", with us, they are natives.

Aanii. Machjo-n dishnikaaz.

Non, mon Ojibwa n'est pas très bon, mais je n'en connais un peu. Je discutais ce sujet dans ma classe d'ojibwa, et je peux te dire que les ojibwas ne favorisent pas du tout le bilinguisme officiel, et oui ils sont très conscients de son impact économique sur eux. Ils ne vivent pas tous sur les réserves. Une ojibwa dans cette classe était mariée à un allemand et elle connaissait l’allemand mais pas le français. Une autre avait l’intention d’accepter une position en Chine plus tard.

Ils étaient tous des ojibwas urbains et des blancs non-ojibwas comme moi. Et même parmi les blancs, certains ne connaissaient pas le français.

Cela était à Ottawa.

Bien que je ne suis pas d’accords avec eux, l’opinion populaire parmi la plupart était que l’anglais sert de langue auxiliaire internationale des peuples autochtones de la plupart du Canada, certaines partis du Québec y compris.

J’ai discuté le sujet de l’espéranto aussi. Ils favorisaient tous l’idée en principe, mais la plupart croyaient que les anglais et les français ne l’accepteraient pas, donc pour eux l’anglais langue auxiliaire internationale était préférable. Encore, pas que je suis en accord avec l’anglais langue auxiliaire internationale (je préfère l’espéranto dans ce rôle), je t’informe tout simplement du contenu de nos conversations.

Alors, quelle est ton expérience personnel des peuples autochtones?

Baamaa pii.

[Benz]

Let's not rewrite history. The formation of an Anglo-French Canada was the result of a brutal colonial Anglo-French colusion.

Germans were allowed to send their children to school in German until WWI. In fact, Kitchener ON was once Berlin ON.

worse than rewriting history, the English sometimes tried to outright erase it.

but again, the French were no better. Do we reward ourselves for this?

What would be wrong with creating a multinational Canada. In other words, we divide the country into fifty or sixty parovinces along indigenous lines, include a moderate right to the local indigenous language iin government institutions, and adopt an international auxiliary language like Esperanto as the common second language that everyone would learn in school? That way, all would be equal.

The reality though is that English and French Canadians do not want equality except between themselves to the exclusion of everyone else.

Yeah, the french are so bad. They did... they did... hum... what did they do again? I think they assimilated Newfoundland to speak french only, right? Or they killed all Dakotas? No wait, they killed Pontiac... bah! it does not matter. They did something terrible for sure. We will eventually find out what it is. We will even invent it to make sure it exists.

The churches in Québec have tried to assimilate few natives just like the anglos did. They participated in the cultural genocide as well.

I like your idea of 50 provinces. It would rather be 50 states because I hate terribly the term province.

The use of esperanto instead of english and french is a total different topic. I am not against the principle.

[Machjo]

Also, the Ojibwa generally don't look for total sovereignty like Quebec nationalists do since they recognize that after colonialism and the residential school system, that is not possible.

Instead, the ones I have met prefer moderate sovereignty within a federation, but they do highly prize a more equal official status for their languages in the federation and a common auxiliary language for international business. They might disagree with one another on that front, but not by much. Almost all of them have opted for English and find the official status for French in Ottawa to be combersome. Most of the ones I'd met worked in the city in the private sector. One who was bilingual in English and French worked for the Federal government, so yes, even the Ojibwa might sometimes work for the Federal government, but that is rare because of the language barrier.

Do you support this:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/afn-asks-ottawa-to-declare-all-aboriginal-languages-official/article25378218/

I do in principle. It woudl be quite manageable to adopt one official auxiliary language and then give some kind of official status to the local indigenous language.

My knowledge of different languages and my friendships and interactions have made me aware that not all Canadians see Canada in only English or French terms.

[Machjo]

Yeah, the french are so bad. They did... they did... hum... what did they do again? I think they assimilated Newfoundland to speak french only, right? Or they killed all Dakotas? No wait, they killed Pontiac... bah! it does not matter. They did something terrible for sure. We will eventually find out what it is. We will even invent it to make sure it exists.

The churches in Québec have tried to assimilate few natives just like the anglos did. They participated in the cultural genocide as well.

I like your idea of 50 provinces. It would rather be 50 states because I hate terribly the term province.

The use of esperanto instead of english and french is a total different topic. I am not against the principle.

So do you agree with Bellegarde's recommendation of an official status for all of Canada's indigenous languages?

No, I disagree with Parliament run in 50 odd languages. But if we adopt a policy of an official status for the local indigenous language and Esperanto, that would be only two official languages in any given municipality. If we include the local indigenous sign language and the International Sign, that would still be only four official languages (and only two written ones) in any given municipality. Very manageable.

Even if English and French lost their official statuses, as long as the official languages apply only to official use, then English and French would still dominate in most of the priave sector. How greedy can we be?

And yes, the poor poor monolinguals would have to learn a common easy language and everyone would lose the right to live monolingually. Poor babies.

[Machjo]

And are you denying that Hector Langevin contributed significantly to the establishment of the residential school system and was a French Canadian?

[Benz]

Aanii. Machjo-n dishnikaaz.

Non, mon Ojibwa n'est pas très bon, mais je n'en connais un peu. Je discutais ce sujet dans ma classe d'ojibwa, et je peux te dire que les ojibwas ne favorisent pas du tout le bilinguisme officiel, et oui ils sont très conscients de son impact économique sur eux. Ils ne vivent pas tous sur les réserves. Une ojibwa dans cette classe était mariée à un allemand et elle connaissait l’allemand mais pas le français. Une autre avait l’intention d’accepter une position en Chine plus tard.

Ils étaient tous des ojibwas urbains et des blancs non-ojibwas comme moi. Et même parmi les blancs, certains ne connaissaient pas le français.

Cela était à Ottawa.

Bien que je ne suis pas d’accords avec eux, l’opinion populaire parmi la plupart était que l’anglais sert de langue auxiliaire internationale des peuples autochtones de la plupart du Canada, certaines partis du Québec y compris.

J’ai discuté le sujet de l’espéranto aussi. Ils favorisaient tous l’idée en principe, mais la plupart croyaient que les anglais et les français ne l’accepteraient pas, donc pour eux l’anglais langue auxiliaire internationale était préférable. Encore, pas que je suis en accord avec l’anglais langue auxiliaire internationale (je préfère l’espéranto dans ce rôle), je t’informe tout simplement du contenu de nos conversations.

Alors, quelle est ton expérience personnel des peuples autochtones?

Baamaa pii.

My ex is a Mi'kmaq born in PEI and adopted by a bilingual family (mother enlgish, father french). When I was with her, she found out her biological family and we visited them each year. Although she is not my gf anymore, we are still friend and I am still in contact with her biological family in PEI. Some are still living on the reserve.

It is sad to say and they would be offended that I say that, but they are no longer natives. Although they try as best as they can to keep up with their traditional culture, they are english canadians and they think like english canadians. They barely speak Mi'kmaq.

They are not the only ones. The same thing goes for many Mohawks. I have talk with alot of them and despite they considered themselve a native nation, they do not behave as such at all. They are very "white" canadians in their mind. They do not speak a single word of their ancestors.

Then I met real natives with native minds. The way they talk is very different. The choice of words, the thinking, the political positions. The difference with the assimilated natives is HUGE. They are talking about claims for their nation, not for their personal benifits.

[Benz]

So do you agree with Bellegarde's recommendation of an official status for all of Canada's indigenous languages?

No, I disagree with Parliament run in 50 odd languages. But if we adopt a policy of an official status for the local indigenous language and Esperanto, that would be only two official languages in any given municipality. If we include the local indigenous sign language and the International Sign, that would still be only four official languages (and only two written ones) in any given municipality. Very manageable.

Even if English and French lost their official statuses, as long as the official languages apply only to official use, then English and French would still dominate in most of the priave sector. How greedy can we be?

And yes, the poor poor monolinguals would have to learn a common easy language and everyone would lose the right to live monolingually. Poor babies.

Up to a certain point, yes. Compare that with the EU or the UN. There can be main official languages and secondary ones.

I agree that the native languages should be allowed to have an official status but, it is not realistic that hey can be served as much as english and french. I beleive that the federal services in their communities should be served in their language and it should be a right.

[Machjo]

My ex is a Mi'kmaq born in PEI and adopted by a bilingual family (mother enlgish, father french). When I was with her, she found out her biological family and we visited them each year. Although she is not my gf anymore, we are still friend and I am still in contact with her biological family in PEI. Some are still living on the reserve.

It is sad to say and they would be offended that I say that, but they are no longer natives. Although they try as best as they can to keep up with their traditional culture, they are english canadians and they think like english canadians. They barely speak Mi'kmaq.

They are not the only ones. The same thing goes for many Mohawks. I have talk with alot of them and despite they considered themselve a native nation, they do not behave as such at all. They are very "white" canadians in their mind. They do not speak a single word of their ancestors.

Then I met real natives with native minds. The way they talk is very different. The choice of words, the thinking, the political positions. The difference with the assimilated natives is HUGE. They are talking about claims for their nation, not for their personal benifits.

Maybe the Ojibwa in Ottawa are different. Some do know Ojibwa and the rest make the effort to learn it.

However, the nation and the person are not separate. Bill 101 was also about not just national identity, but the practicalities of accesing employment, no? Don't deny it.

Why do we hold indigenous peoples to a higher standard. Even Perry Bellegarde supports an official status for all of Canada's indigenous languages even off-reserve indipendently of total sovereignty. And like I said, few indigenous peoples if any truly want total sovereignty anyway. They want moderate sovereignty within a confederation. They know they don't have the numbers to become totally independent due to the history of genocide.

[Benz]

And are you denying that Hector Langevin contributed significantly to the establishment of the residential school system and was a French Canadian?

So what? What's the point.

Go and read about the thornton bill in Manitoba and other "official language acts" in other provinces.

[Machjo]

Up to a certain point, yes. Compare that with the EU or the UN. There can be main official languages and secondary ones.

I agree that the native languages should be allowed to have an official status but, it is not realistic that hey can be served as much as english and french. I beleive that the federal services in their communities should be served in their language and it should be a right.

What do you mean by in their communities? Just on their reserves?

If we give Salish an official status in Vancouver, should French continue to have an official status there too? How many official lanuages can we maintain in any one given area? That's why English should have no status in French Canada and French in English Canada, so as to give more breathing room to the local indigenous language. A good balance might be four official languages in any given municipality: The local indigenous written and oral language, the local indigenous sign language, Esperanto and International Sign.

One official language could be the primary official language of government, but the government could give hiring preferecne, all other qualifications being equal, to the one who knows one of the secondary official languages mentioned above.

To protect English and French, any official status should be limited to the government so as to allow English and French to continue to dominate in the private sector. Perhaps English and French could also have an official status but only in a municipality where their speakers are a majority.

Unfortunately, a polity of localized official unilingualism will impose personal bilingualism on everyone, but I think that is reasonable especially if an easy language like Esperanto is an option.

[Machjo]

So what? What's the point.

Go and read about the thornton bill in Manitoba and other "official language acts" in other provinces.

Now you're sounding like an Anglo: "Oh, but they're worse than we are, so you have to ignore our wrongs."

[Benz]

Now you're sounding like an Anglo: "Oh, but they're worse than we are, so you have to ignore our wrongs."

such as?

[Benz]

What do you mean by in their communities? Just on their reserves?

If we give Salish an official status in Vancouver, should French continue to have an official status there too? How many official lanuages can we maintain in any one given area? That's why English should have no status in French Canada and French in English Canada, so as to give more breathing room to the local indigenous language. A good balance might be four official languages in any given municipality: The local indigenous written and oral language, the local indigenous sign language, Esperanto and International Sign.

One official language could be the primary official language of government, but the government could give hiring preferecne, all other qualifications being equal, to the one who knows one of the secondary official languages mentioned above.

To protect English and French, any official status should be limited to the government so as to allow English and French to continue to dominate in the private sector. Perhaps English and French could also have an official status but only in a municipality where their speakers are a majority.

Unfortunately, a polity of localized official unilingualism will impose personal bilingualism on everyone, but I think that is reasonable especially if an easy language like Esperanto is an option.

You are talking about so few use cases. Also, you still don't understand my point.

First, the reserves are too small.

Second, alot of services should be provided by their local politics, instead of the federal. Actually the federal owns the natives and it is a massive problem. Once the natives will have their political infrastructures comparable to what the provinces have, they will be able to provide the services in their own native languages. I do not see why there would be a need for a third language, whether it is french or english. An Ojibway local government in MB could serve in Ojibway and English only and I would not mind at all.

The federal would still serve English and French. The problem lies with the fact that the federal serves Ojibway people on functions that should rather be provided locally.

Do you get it now?

[Machjo]

How so? You criticize the English so I mention Hector Langevin. Your response? Oh, but look at the English, how much worse than we are.

Who cares who's worse? If someone commits murder and I shoplift a chocolate bar, and I'm standing before the judge, could you imagine me saying:

"Oh, but your honour, you should let me go and ignore what I did because what that murderer did is far worse than what I did."

You know that the judge would laugh at me and still punish me for shoplifting, right?

Who is worse or who committed the worse attrocity is not the standard we should go by and certainly not the standard I expect of Quebec.

[Machjo]

You are aware aren't you that some indigenous people actually do not know either English or French well?

Statistically, about 15% of Nunavut knows neither English nor French. Some Ojibwa likewise believe it or not. This presents a moral dilemma. Do we translate all Federal laws in their languages? Do we simply exempt them from federal laws and let them write their own laws? Do we not translate federal laws but when they break the law we punish them anyway? Do we just impose English on them even more to make sure they do learn English well?

Just questions to ponder.

[?Impact]

Do we not translate federal laws but when they break the law we punish them anyway?

Ignorance of the law is not, nor never has been, a defense. I dare say that 100% of lawyers and justices in this land are ignorant of a large part of the law.

[Benz]

You are aware aren't you that some indigenous people actually do not know either English or French well?

Statistically, about 15% of Nunavut knows neither English nor French. Some Ojibwa likewise believe it or not. This presents a moral dilemma. Do we translate all Federal laws in their languages? Do we simply exempt them from federal laws and let them write their own laws? Do we not translate federal laws but when they break the law we punish them anyway? Do we just impose English on them even more to make sure they do learn English well?

Just questions to ponder.

When are you going to reply to what I said regarding their sovereignty that would solve most of the problems by allowing them to have their own system. The federal would then be a much smaller issue. An issue they could deal with it. Whether it is in french or english.

[Machjo]

I actually would support a maximally decentralized multinational state between English, French, and indigenous peoples.

Do be fair though, given our advantage in numbers of taxpayers, we might want to give uninhabited land with resources to indigenous nations. That way, they they may have a small tax base, at least they'd have resources to sell.

With so many languages though, federal would need an easy language as its official language or at least one of its official languages. But I could definitely support that.

Also, with Canada being so decentralized with most power in each province, maybe the federal parliament would be represented by one province one representative, so somewhere around fifty or fifty representatives, but dealing mainly only with foreign and inter-preovincial issues and not much else.

[TimG]

I actually would support a maximally decentralized multinational state between English, French, and indigenous peoples.

There can be no 'indigenous peoples' tier of government because that is simply racist at best and modern day feudalism at worst. Governments of multi-racial societies have to be based on the principal that all citizens no matter what their DNA have an equal say in their governance. This requirement precludes an government run exclusively for the benefit of a minority of the population. Edited September 22, 2016 by TimG

[Machjo]

There can be no 'indigenous peoples' tier of government because that is simply racist at best and modern day feudalism at worst. Governments of multi-racial societies have to be based on the principal that all citizens no matter what their DNA have an equal say in their governance. This requirement precludes an government run exclusively for the benefit of a minority of the population.

I was thinking along the lines of Nunavut. Just as English and French are official languages in various parts of Canada, so is Inuktitut in Nunavut. Beyond that though, any one could move to Nunavut, just that knowing the official language would help independently of race.

[Machjo]

Question, does recognising the English and French tier in official bilingualism constitute racism?