Your thoughts on official unilingualism?

[BC_chick]

You have a situation that requires contact with the government and you ant to work in your second language? No way.

You're right. I was thinking more of the labeling laws in the OP and more mundane stuff.

[Machjo]

Believe me when I say that if we wait for the Anglophones to work on getting rid of official biIingualism we will be waiting forever. The Anglophones appear to be only interested in themselves and their own concerns or making money or creating more bike lanes. We need the francos to do the job. The government will listen to the francos rather than they would listen to those apathetic Anglophones who show that they don't seem to care what happens to them. The feds know that they can pull the wool over their anglophone eyes, and get away with it without a whimper from them.

Well, for some reason, the feds seem to support it, and have proven so by the billions of tax dollars that have been blown on official bilingualism. Someone is making a lot of money from this farce called bilingualism. And it sure isn't the taxpayer's. Some bureaucrats for sure are though.

Charest had done his part by requesting that federal institutions and federally-regulated industries in Quebec adopt a policy of official unilingualism. Has any Ontario Premier ever done the same? Had the Ontario premier joined Charest by making the same request for Ontario, maybe Canada would have perked its ears up to listen. There is only so much Quebec can do.

[Machjo]

So what?

It should be obvious. If I'm Ojibwa and I want to work for the Federal government or a federally-regulated industry, I first have to learn English and then French.

If I'm Innu and I want to work for the Federal government or a federally-regulated industry, I must first learn French and then English.

I remember entering a visa office in Ottawa and all but one employee was white. Why is that? Clearly an Anglo has the advantage of speaking one official language as a mother tongue. The same with the Franco. The Ojibwa? He has two foreign languages to learn to access the same job. But if the federal government and industries in Ontario were unilingual English and those in Quebec unilingual French, that Ojibwa or Innu would have a better chance. Then we wonder why they are so poor compared to English and French Canadians. The laws are rigged against them.

[Machjo]

My language is french, if Canada is my country, I expect the federal to serve me in my language wherever I live in this country. Otherwise, Canada is no longer my country. Plain and simple.

Would you agree to the following:

"My language is Innu, if Quebec is my country, I expect the provincial government to serve me in my language wherever I live in this country. Otherwise, Quebec is no longer my country. Plain and simple."

Not to criticize you, but just to understand your logic.

Should Inuktitut become an official language of Canada? If not, then why should the Federal government be required to provide services in English and French in Nunavut when Inuktitut is the majority language there? You expect English speakers to learn French in Quebec. Why not expect French speakers to learn English in Toronto or Inuktitut in Nunavut?

If we absolutely need a common second language, why not an easy language like Esperanto for a practical international language when needed?

[Machjo]

As for New Brunswick, why not hold a referendum in each municipality to determine what municipalities want to join Quebec. Then, the rest of New Brunswick could maybe join another English province. That way, each could adope English or French as the only official language of Government administration and so save money on translation and leave more money to pay debts and help the poor.

As for the private sector, people should be free to work in the language of their choice. We're not North Korea here. If shops in Richmond do business in Chinese, so be it. You open up your own business and do business in English. Its not up to you to tear everyone else's hard work down because you can't hack it. Government should adopt one official language of government administration to save money. However, especially in the modern world, no one has a God-given right to be monolingual. Obviously bilinguals will have the advantage in any language. Again, unless we want to become North Korea, private business should be left to do waht it has to do to make money without hurting others. You can choose to not shop there if you like.

[cybercoma]

As for New Brunswick, why not hold a referendum in each municipality to determine what municipalities want to join Quebec. Then, the rest of New Brunswick could maybe join another English province.

Because NB is sovereign under our federalist arrangement. Why should the province give up its sovereignty because some very whiny people don't like multilingualism?

[Machjo]

Because NB is sovereign under our federalist arrangement. Why should the province give up its sovereignty because some very whiny people don't like multilingualism?

I did propose a referendum, not imposition. Are you against democracy?

And on the contrary, I'm very much for personal multilingualism. Ironically enough though, official unilingualism is the best way to promote personal multilingualism. Here's why. Under official bilingualism, people feel pressure to learn the same two languages, which in turn suffocates all other languages, whether sign languages, indigenous languages or otherwise.

Under official unilingualism, people need to learn only one official language, which frees their time, money, and other resources to develop their own sign language, indigenous language, or other language at will.

So if anything, a rational multilinguist will favour official unilingualism. Official bilingualism is precisely to guarantee the right of a person to live unilingually. In that respect, official unilingualism tends to go hand in hand with personal multilingualism whereas official multilingualism can encourage personal unilingualism.

[cybercoma]

What makes you think a referendum would be successful? NB is not giving up its sovereignty.

[Machjo]

What makes you think a referendum would be successful? NB is not giving up its sovereignty.

I have no idea if such a hypothetical referendum would be successful. Then again, if the English New Brunswickers gave the French New Brunswickers an ultimatum that NB would become unilingual English speaking but any municipality that wants to join Quebec can do so, that could change the dynamics. It really would depend on many factors as in all hypothetical scenarios.

But if it happened, it would clearly save NewBrunswickers money and improve efficiency by saving money on translation costs.

[Machjo]

I think the biggest problem today is that Canadians are too afraid to think outside the box.

[?Impact]

Then again, if the English New Brunswickers gave the French New Brunswickers an ultimatum that NB would become unilingual English speaking but any municipality that wants to join Quebec can do so, that could change the dynamics.

Will Quebec give that same ultimatum to it's municipalities? Certainly fewer will leave than when I was a youngster, but there will still be some.

[Machjo]

Will Quebec give that same ultimatum to it's municipalities? Certainly fewer will leave than when I was a youngster, but there will still be some.

I don't know. Maybe if New Brunswick were willing to give the majority-French municipalities to Quebec on the condition that English municipalities in Quebec could have a similar referendum might work. I imagine Quebec would prefer expanding its borders into French territory rather than just hold on to English ballast, no?

Far Northern Quebec might even want to join Nunanut. In then end, all sides would benefit by reducing government translation costs.

[?Impact]

I don't know. Maybe if New Brunswick were willing to give the majority-French municipalities to Quebec on the condition that English municipalities in Quebec could have a similar referendum might work. I imagine Quebec would prefer expanding its borders into French territory rather than just hold on to English ballast, no?

Far Northern Quebec might even want to join Nunanut. In then end, all sides would benefit by reducing government translation costs.

I doubt those vast hydro resources would be so easily given up.

[Machjo]

I doubt those vast hydro resources would be so easily given up.

True enough. but then that could expose hypocrisy. For example, Quebec is all about protecting its national identity. The mask would be removed if it refused Inuit Northern municipalities a referendum to join Nunavut. Then we would know that Quebec just wants to make everyone French and not just preserve diversity in the world.

[Benz]

It should be obvious. If I'm Ojibwa and I want to work for the Federal government or a federally-regulated industry, I first have to learn English and then French.

If I'm Innu and I want to work for the Federal government or a federally-regulated industry, I must first learn French and then English.

I remember entering a visa office in Ottawa and all but one employee was white. Why is that? Clearly an Anglo has the advantage of speaking one official language as a mother tongue. The same with the Franco. The Ojibwa? He has two foreign languages to learn to access the same job. But if the federal government and industries in Ontario were unilingual English and those in Quebec unilingual French, that Ojibwa or Innu would have a better chance. Then we wonder why they are so poor compared to English and French Canadians. The laws are rigged against them.

As I said, so what? Whether you are Ojibway, Innu or Tamil. If you are working in a country where the two official languages are english and french because founded by those two nations, you have to know both. Plain and simple.

The natives are less than 3% of the population. They are divided in several diffirent nations speaking different languages. What is the weight of the Ojibway in Canada?

You absolutely no idea of what-so-ever what the natives need. They rather need a better structure to shape their sovereignty and be less dependent of the federal system. That is an issue that concerns them much more than being an employed worker in the public function. Seriously, your examples are very weak.

why not esperanto as second language...

No problem. So it will be french as first language throughout Canada and Esperanto second. We will get rid of english everywhere. It's not negociable. Go convince your fellows.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Benz

[Machjo]

So the Ojibwa and Innu should have no more rights than Tamils? Because they were militarily weaker than the English and French and because their numbers were redusced through the residential school system, they should know their place as second-class Canadians?

[PIK]

When is English Canada going to wake up. The 1st trudeau (who IMO was a closet separatist like his son) ripped the soul out of English Canada while protecting Quebec. A English Canadian can't work for the federal government, if he cant do French, which is totally wrong. The French have way to much say for the size of their population.

[Benz]

As for New Brunswick, why not hold a referendum in each municipality to determine what municipalities want to join Quebec. Then, the rest of New Brunswick could maybe join another English province. That way, each could adope English or French as the only official language of Government administration and so save money on translation and leave more money to pay debts and help the poor.

As for the private sector, people should be free to work in the language of their choice. We're not North Korea here. If shops in Richmond do business in Chinese, so be it. You open up your own business and do business in English. Its not up to you to tear everyone else's hard work down because you can't hack it. Government should adopt one official language of government administration to save money. However, especially in the modern world, no one has a God-given right to be monolingual. Obviously bilinguals will have the advantage in any language. Again, unless we want to become North Korea, private business should be left to do waht it has to do to make money without hurting others. You can choose to not shop there if you like.

No one here feels that this is a north corea-like. None of my english speaking co-workers are suffering of any oppression. You are living in a parallel universe.

Choose to not shop there... ok, are you really that stupid? When a huge company with strong competive prices come here and sell stuff that locals can't compete with, money talks more than the language. If I want a product and I can buy it from an english speaking person at 5$, but it would rather cost me 10$ from a french speaking one, money will talk louder than any languages on this planet. There are alot of multinationals based in USA or using english as their main language.

This is not a debate. I am informing you that it is totally out of question to remove our language policies. Comparing it to North Korea is just painting yourself in the corner. You are humiliating yourself.

[Benz]

So the Ojibwa and Innu should have no more rights than Tamils? Because they were militarily weaker than the English and French and because their numbers were redusced through the residential school system, they should know their place as second-class Canadians?

Are you stupid or you just avoided to read my post completly?

The Ojibway need more than just an unilingual english federalism. They don't give a **** about your claim. They want to have a better sovereign government for them and all the infrastructures to help their nation to thrive free.

[Benz]

When is English Canada going to wake up. The 1st trudeau (who IMO was a closet separatist like his son) ripped the soul out of English Canada while protecting Quebec. A English Canadian can't work for the federal government, if he cant do French, which is totally wrong. The French have way to much say for the size of their population.

Tu serais beaucoup plus intelligent si tu savais parler français. Cela te ferait le plus grand bien. If the english canadian "can't do french", then he does not deserve the job. A more superior french speaking person will take its place. That is the way it is. Intelligent people get better jobs.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Benz

[Machjo]

Are you stupid or you just avoided to read my post completly?

The Ojibway need more than just an unilingual english federalism. They don't give a **** about your claim. They want to have a better sovereign government for them and all the infrastructures to help their nation to thrive free.

So do you support this:

http://quebec.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/11/21/je-suis-souverainiste-clame-un-chef-innu-au-conseil-national-du-pq_n_8617932.html

The PQ applauded Picard after he said he was a sovereignist. Peladeau had invited him to speak to the PQ. Then, they learnt he was referring to being an Innu sovereignist and not a Quebec sovereignist, and that he was open to the partitioning of Quebec.

So, does sovereignty apply only to white cultures?

[Benz]

Ironically enough though, official unilingualism is the best way to promote personal multilingualism. Here's why. Under official bilingualism, people feel pressure to learn the same two languages, which in turn suffocates all other languages, whether sign languages, indigenous languages or otherwise.

And I guess the best place for produce cheese is on the moon.

Canada has banned the french, the natives and other languages in so many places. For several generations, alot of natives could not have public schools in their languages. Same for the french in Manitoba, PEI, NS...

Despite all that, you have the nerve to blame the use of french in the federal system to suffocates all languages. You need a good slap in the face to wake you up.

[Machjo]

No one here feels that this is a north corea-like. None of my english speaking co-workers are suffering of any oppression. You are living in a parallel universe.

Choose to not shop there... ok, are you really that stupid? When a huge company with strong competive prices come here and sell stuff that locals can't compete with, money talks more than the language. If I want a product and I can buy it from an english speaking person at 5$, but it would rather cost me 10$ from a french speaking one, money will talk louder than any languages on this planet. There are alot of multinationals based in USA or using english as their main language.

This is not a debate. I am informing you that it is totally out of question to remove our language policies. Comparing it to North Korea is just painting yourself in the corner. You are humiliating yourself.

I've eaten at restaurants in Scarborough that had only Chinese menus. The entire clientele was Chinese along with the staff. I was the only white guy in the restaurant. At another restaurant with an English-Chinees bilingual menu, there was another white guy in the restaurant. And no, there was no French.

Are you suggesting that I should have stood up in the middle of the restaurant and sing God save the Queen or Ô Canada!

Terre de nos aïeux like a good little Canadian?

I'm white, French is my mother tongue, I speak English, but I'm not going to piss on an entrepreneur's hard work because he won't make me the centre of his universe.

You might live in La Malbaie where it's wall to wall French, but residents of cosmopolitan cities live a different reality.

[Machjo]

And I guess the best place for produce cheese is on the moon.

Canada has banned the french, the natives and other languages in so many places. For several generations, alot of natives could not have public schools in their languages. Same for the french in Manitoba, PEI, NS...

Despite all that, you have the nerve to blame the use of french in the federal system to suffocates all languages. You need a good slap in the face to wake you up.

Wasn't Hector Langevin, a French Canadian and the Federal Minister of Public Works under John A. MacDonald the one who established the residential school system?

Did French-language residential schools not exist in Quebec?

Let's not pretend that French was not imposed too. This is not to excuse the imposition of English, but the French weren't angels either. Let's be honest. Many French-speakers worked in the residential school system too.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Machjo

[Machjo]

Let's not rewrite history. The formation of an Anglo-French Canada was the result of a brutal colonial Anglo-French colusion.

Germans were allowed to send their children to school in German until WWI. In fact, Kitchener ON was once Berlin ON.

worse than rewriting history, the English sometimes tried to outright erase it.

but again, the French were no better. Do we reward ourselves for this?

What would be wrong with creating a multinational Canada. In other words, we divide the country into fifty or sixty parovinces along indigenous lines, include a moderate right to the local indigenous language iin government institutions, and adopt an international auxiliary language like Esperanto as the common second language that everyone would learn in school? That way, all would be equal.

The reality though is that English and French Canadians do not want equality except between themselves to the exclusion of everyone else.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Machjo