Police Officers Shot in ----------------

[kimmy]

They aren't beyond questioning and they are questioned. In BC we have independent civilian police complaints commissioners for both municipal departments and the RCMP.

Yes, after the Braidwood Inquiry, we in BC saw that the RCMP culture is so vile and corrupt that even the RCMP themselves had to concede that there was no way anybody in this province could trust them to "self police" themselves again.

Unfortunately for the cop haters, they are entitled to the same due process as every other citizen when they screw up. Do cops support each other? Damn right, their lives depend on each other and they get precious little support from anyone else when they make a mistake. Does that support between them go to far sometimes? Probably but why would anyone be surprised?

I think there's a world of difference between policemen protecting each other in a potentially dangerous situation, vs having the techie from the police IT lab come to a business to scrub potentially damaging information off the business's security DVR system in the aftermath, or having the department's communications officer hold a press conference to spread deliberately false statements about the incident the day after, and so-on.

They spend their lives dealing with victims and the lowlifes who make those victims. Between that, the Charter hoops they have to jump through to get any kind of charge or conviction and the glacial pace of our legal system it's no wonder many of them get cynical over time, any of us would.

Which is completely irrelevant when it comes to the issue of covering up wrongdoing by their peers.

You don't think they know there are people with cameras all over the place ready to post everything they do on social media? Of course they do but they have to do their jobs in spite of it. How would you like someone filming everything you do at work and then posting it for every ahole in the world to comment on.

I think if I knew so many people were watching, I'd be less likely to soccer-kick prone suspects in the face, administer numerous taser-shots to helpless victims and lie about it afterwards, and so-on.

Believe it or not, most cops don't like it when some cops make them look bad, particularly if it negates something that they have spent many hours working on. Believe it or not, cops do get fired for things even though no charges were laid against them.

Don't like it because they don't like what happened, or don't like it when the public finds out?

I suggest that if it were the former, they'd spend more effort trying to root out the "bad apples", as opposed to covering up for "bad apples" and lobbying for laws against filming police and so-on.

-k

[jacee]

Miami police shoot caretaker of autistic man playing with toy truck in the street.

Cellphone video shows Charles Kinsey lying on his back with his hands in the air moments before shooting

Kinsey said he was more worried about his patient than himself during the incident.

"As long as I've got my hands up, they're not going to shoot me. This is what I'm thinking. They're not going to shoot me," he said. "Wow was I wrong."

There is something really wrong with too many police today.

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Edited July 21, 2016 by jacee

[cybercoma]

Oh boy. It's NAMALT's cousin NACALT.

[eyeball]

Agreed. The Police who don't make the news are in the vast majority. Like any other group that has members who do bad things.

Sorta like Muslims? Edited July 21, 2016 by eyeball

[Guest]

Sorta like Muslims?

That's kinda who I meant with my last sentence.

[jacee]

Why? Because nobody is really criminal and violent except police, right?

The police can save their violent responses (where necessary) for people who are violent criminals.

Not those who are mentally ill or otherwise in distress ... or Black ... or Arab ... or ...

Most of the people the police have issue with ought to be in prison or in some kind of mental health facility.

Putting criminals in jail is the police's job.

Not harassing, beating or killing people who are mentally ill ... or Black ... or Arab ... or ...

OH right, and it's yours?

Yes I know quite a bit about providing housing and services for the mentally ill and other needy people.

Let me guess your solution MORE GOVERNMENT MONEY!

That has been your solution to every issue which has ever come up on this site since you've been here.

It costs money upfront to provide supportive housing but in the longer term, it saves money in emergency health care costs, unnecessary policing, etc.

HOUSING FIRST

Alberta has embraced a housing-first strategy for several years and the results have been impressive.

The provinces seven largest cities found that between 2008 and 2012, vulnerable populations had 85% fewer days in jail, 64% fewer days in hospital, 60% fewer interactions with EMS, 60% fewer emergency room visits and 57% fewer interactions with police.

Such reductions come with financial benefits for the public purse.

I am quite certain that police, health services and shelter services personnel would support this.

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Edited July 21, 2016 by jacee

[Argus]

Then what exactly did you guys mean with these posts:

I made a long, much more nuanced and explanatory reply to your post which you chose to ignore in favor of responding to a cheap one liner about a reply I made to Jacee. I don't feel I owe you anything more on that.

Cheap slogans or not, they're right.

About what? That all police are criminals?

I think BLM are a bunch of buffoons too, but there's a real problem here. As I've said before, my main objection to the BLM message is that trying to blame it on racism is just too simplistic an explanation-- it misses the real problem. The real problem: no accountability from the police has resulted in no trust from the public.

First, you're wrong. Police are generally trusted. Second, you're wrong again, there is lots of accountability on the part of police. Third, you're wrong again. The real problem is faulty police training and processes.

Each time one of these incidents happens, the police chief and the mayor get on a podium and say "Please! Do not rush to judgment! Trust the system!" After seeing the disgusting, despicable reality of the system exposed in the Braidwood Inquiry, how much do you trust the system, Argus?

Sure. The Braidwood Inquiry showed exactly what happened there. It clearly exposed the faulty leadership and training at the RCMP. That our federal government has chosen to do absolutely nothing about it is not the fault of the process. It's the fault of the government.

It's been clear that police militarization and over-emphasis on the use of weapons and officer-safety has been a rising problem. No political leaders, in the US or Canada, have as yet chosen to care about that or instigate any changes to police training. And that includes the Liberal governments in most of Canada's provinces, and the Liberal government in Ottawa. All of them have the power to order changes. None care enough to do so. It's been clear that police cams are a great tool both to reign in officer misbehavior and for investigative and legal purposes. No major city in Canada has equipped its officers with them. Nor has the RCMP been equipped with them. Those forces which have equipped a few officers with them on an experimental basis have left it to them when to turn them on or off.

I've already said, we have hundreds of thousands of young guys with weapons being repeatedly told they're in enormous danger, and taught to go everywhere with a hand on the butt of their guns. Given that I think it's amazing how few of these poor judgement calls wind up on the news. They need to be retrained along the British model. UK cops get much more training, and it emphasizes calming situations down and avoiding angry confrontation. Even their firearms equipped officers get much more training in firearms than our police, including continual retraining not only in shooting them but the laws and regulations governing when they can be used.

But neither Americans nor Canadians have seen fit to get their governments to change police training or policies. If you want to scream at anyone scream at the governments, not the poorly trained police.

Edited July 21, 2016 by Argus

[Icebound]

...

...

It's been clear that police militarization and over-emphasis on the use of weapons and officer-safety has been a rising problem. No political leaders, in the US or Canada, have as yet chosen to care about that or instigate any changes to police training. And that includes the Liberal governments in most of Canada's provinces, and the Liberal government in Ottawa. All of them have the power to order changes. None care enough to do so.

...

...

The "Police" is a civil service, and as such, I am not sure how to what extent political interference is actually appropriate... especially in technical matters such as training and equipment.

What governments (AND police services) CAN do... is to understand the new truths about the "security web": http://www.scienceadvice.ca/uploads/eng/assessments%20and%20publications%20and%20news%20releases/policing/policing_fullreporten.pdf

"Foremost among these changes has been the growth of the safety and security web. The web comprises an increasing number of nonpolice organizations — including private security, local health professionals, community and municipal groups, and other government organizations — that now interact with one another and with police in the provision of safety and security."

... and to fund and encourage that integration...

It does not help when governments of certain ideological stripes acted in reverse...defunding some of those "health professionals, community and municipal groups, and other government organization" ... while proclaiming a "law-and-order" agenda and emphasizing only incarceration.

Yes, I fully agree with you that the situation has to be reversed.

[Icebound]

..

Edited July 22, 2016 by Icebound

[Argus]

The "Police" is a civil service, and as such, I am not sure how to what extent political interference is actually appropriate... especially in technical matters such as training and equipment.

I think in this case it's entirely appropriate. Telling police leaders that training has to be lengthened, and that we demand more training on de-escelating situations, and more emphasis on non-lethal means of dealing with most kinds of resistance is well within the purview of government. So is insisting on bodycams.

Edited July 22, 2016 by Argus

[jacee]

I think in this case it's entirely appropriate. Telling police leaders that training has to be lengthened, and that we demand more training on de-escelating situations, and more emphasis on non-lethal means of dealing with most kinds of resistance is well within the purview of government. So is insisting on bodycams.

If it's within the realm of legislating, making laws, it is government business. Bodycams, a good example. Accountability to the public in general (who pay their salaries, fund their budgets): Proper legal accountability must be in effect, required consistently, and well enforced.

But governments cannot direct the operations of the police. The reasons are obvious: Governments are political, partisan. They cannot direct the force of police to interfere with political opponents, to pursue a partisan political agenda, or to squash or punish dissent among the people. (And they will if we allow them that power.)

So how the police services accomplish that accountability is a professional matter of leadership and competence to do so.

How ... de-escalation, non-lethal force, community policing ... those are professional issues. Education and training in best policing practices is a leadership and professional development issue.

Holding police accountable for results is a governance and public issue.

How they meet those obligations is their responsibility.

.

Edited July 22, 2016 by jacee

[Icebound]

I think in this case it's entirely appropriate. Telling police leaders that training has to be lengthened, and that we demand more training on de-escelating situations, and more emphasis on non-lethal means of dealing with most kinds of resistance is well within the purview of government. So is insisting on bodycams.

Well, to a large extent, I agree....

I think my point is more that Politicians should stay out of the technicalities, but still influence by attitude: "This is the direction that we would like to see: more de-escalation, more non-lethal...." etc. etc. and emphasis on fact-based, research-based policing as opposed to responding to every crisis with the single constant of "MORE FORCE".

I think you get those results by firing and hiring the right people to lead those police forces, but without too much meddling in the technicalities.

...

[The_Squid]

When police choose to shoot an unarmed black man lying on the ground with his arms up trying to help an autistic man who is carrying a toy truck, why is it surprising that cops begin to be targeted? It's tragic, but not surprising.

They were trying to hit the autistic man playing with a toy... but missed.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-charles-kinsey-shooting-north-miami20160722-story.html

You arrive on scene and a guy’s playing with a toy truck. Why do you bring out the assault rifle? It’s a good thing he was obviously a lousy marksman.

— Robert Hoelscher, Retired firearms expert and police officer

So if the autistic man with the toy was so dangerous, why didn't they shoot again??

Edited July 22, 2016 by The_Squid

[Guest]

He dropped the truck?

[Argus]

When police choose to shoot an unarmed black man lying on the ground with his arms up trying to help an autistic man who is carrying a toy truck, why is it surprising that cops begin to be targeted? It's tragic, but not surprising.

They were trying to hit the autistic man playing with a toy... but missed.

This is just an example of poor training. There wasn't even a reason to shoot the autistic guy that I saw. Some hyped up poorly trained idiot shot when he shouldn't have. It reminds me of the guy killed in Miami by police last year. He was shirtless and holding a small knife. A cop fired a tazer at him and another cop, apparently startled by the sound, shot him twice in the chest.

[The_Squid]

This is just an example of poor training. There wasn't even a reason to shoot the autistic guy that I saw. Some hyped up poorly trained idiot shot when he shouldn't have. It reminds me of the guy killed in Miami by police last year. He was shirtless and holding a small knife. A cop fired a tazer at him and another cop, apparently startled by the sound, shot him twice in the chest.

Exactly... apparently, this guy was SWAT. The best of the best...

[jacee]

This is just an example of poor training. There wasn't even a reason to shoot the autistic guy that I saw. Some hyped up poorly trained idiot shot when he shouldn't have. It reminds me of the guy killed in Miami by police last year. He was shirtless and holding a small knife. A cop fired a tazer at him and another cop, apparently startled by the sound, shot him twice in the chest.

Startled at the sound of a taser.

Overwhelmed/confused/terrified by an autistic man playing with a toy truck and yelling "SHUT UP!! SHUT UP!!"

(has auditory hypersensitivity)

Frightened/angered/hateful? at the sight of a black man ...

Poor standards, poor training and support?

why-do-american-cops-kill-so-many-compared-to-european-cops-

If we put guns in the hands of police officers and assume that all that's needed, they're gonna shoot people.

Good points made about local forces - hiring, administration, lack of common standards - in the US.

I believe the OPP train all local forces in Ontario.

But support and accountability is local, and Police Services Boards may ... vary.

These are good issues to discuss.

It's officers' actions raising the red flags,

But it's the systems that need attention, discussion, improvement ... accountability to the public.

.

[Argus]

Good points made about local forces - hiring, administration, lack of common standards - in the US.

I believe the OPP train all local forces in Ontario.

But support and accountability is local, and Police Services Boards may ... vary.

I haven't observed a lack of outrageous behaviour from Canadian cops, including the RCMP. None of them are trained as well as many European police, and our cops have taken after the Americans in their militaristic and confrontational attitude. Our cops, just like American cops, are likely to shoot anyone who won't put down whatever weapon they're holding, be it a screwdriver, a knife, or a cell phone. And our cops lack training in de-escalating situations too. Those four RCMP clowns in the Vancouver airport were just eager to use their new toy, the tazer. They put virtually no effort into calming the guy down. And let's not even get into the Toronto streetcar shooting...

[eyeball]

Poor standards, poor training and support?

why-do-american-cops-kill-so-many-compared-to-european-cops-

.

From your source,

Killings excused under America’s “reasonable belief” standards often violate Europe’s “absolute necessity” standards.

Europe's standards speak to a key difference in mindset.

It's officers' actions raising the red flags,

But it's the systems that need attention, discussion, improvement ... accountability to the public.

.

At what point does the public need to be held accountable? The public is also the electorate and as such in a democracy is responsible for its government's actions and inaction as the case appears to be with regard to unremitting carnage at the hands of North American police. Much of the public cheers when politicians talk about cracking down and getting tough on crime and the demand for law and order is as unremitting as the carnage it's driving.

[jacee]

I haven't observed a lack of outrageous behaviour from Canadian cops, including the RCMP. None of them are trained as well as many European police, and our cops have taken after the Americans in their militaristic and confrontational attitude. Our cops, just like American cops, are likely to shoot anyone who won't put down whatever weapon they're holding, be it a screwdriver, a knife, or a cell phone. And our cops lack training in de-escalating situations too. Those four RCMP clowns in the Vancouver airport were just eager to use their new toy, the tazer. They put virtually no effort into calming the guy down. And let's not even get into the Toronto streetcar shooting...

Policing and the mentally distressed:

Robert Dziekanski shot by RCMP

Sammy Yatim shot by Toronto Police

Andrew Loki shot by Toronto Police

Douglas Minty shot by OPP

Matthew Roke shot by OPP

Steve Mesic shot by Hamilton Police

Policing and race:

a-hard-truth: canadas-policing-style-is-very-similar-to-the-us

If we want different outcomes in Canada, we need to get out of the US rut.

.

Edited July 23, 2016 by jacee

[jacee]

From your source,

Europe's standards speak to a key difference in mindset.

At what point does the public need to be held accountable? The public is also the electorate and as such in a democracy is responsible for its government's actions and inaction as the case appears to be with regard to unremitting carnage at the hands of North American police. Much of the public cheers when politicians talk about cracking down and getting tough on crime and the demand for law and order is as unremitting as the carnage it's driving.

Interesting concept, holding the public accountable for its 'law and order' demands.

Where do those demands translate into killing those in mental distress, racial profiling/harassment/beating/mistreatment, and failure to investigate crimes against Indigenous people ...?

.

[eyeball]

They're all just so many perps as far as anyone is concerned. The public doesn't think any farther beyond its fear than police do.

Edited July 23, 2016 by eyeball

[jacee]

They're all just so many perps as far as anyone is concerned. The public doesn't think any farther beyond its fear than police do.

All of the public?

Some of the public?

Those with the 'crack down' and 'law and order' demands?

?

[jacee]

Exactly... apparently, this guy was SWAT. The best of the best...

SWAT know squat about de-escalating.

They're 'the big guns'.

.

[dialamah]

Interesting concept, holding the public accountable for its 'law and order' demands.

Where do those demands translate into killing those in mental distress, racial profiling/harassment/beating/mistreatment, and failure to investigate crimes against Indigenous people ...?

.

I think as a society, we do tend to support the 'punishment' model of dealing with people who don't fit into the white lower middle-class and up demographic. A lot people blame the poor for being poor, the unemployed for being unemployed, the addicts for being addicts and of course, lots of jail time for people convicted of illegal behavior. Was there any significant objection to more prisons, despite crime dropping for decades during Harper's governance? How much support is there for harm-reduction programs? How angry is the public if they happen to catch wind of programs designed to prevent crime, or aid criminals in to become contributing members of society instead of returning to criminal life? There may be outcry against particularly obvious examples of the way in which we unfairly punish poor people, addicts, non-whites etc., but the rest of the time we support that in our society - except for the ones who are generally referred to as bleeding-heart liberals with white guilt.