Theories of Indigenous Origin in the Americas

[waldo]

Voila.....http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/25877-theories-of-indigenous-origin-in-the-americas/?p=1170162

How did you miss it???? Because you miss everything that is even close to a valid point.

I didn't miss anything; again, that's YOU pulling a reference back from the other thread... that's YOU quoting it here! Like I said, YOU'RE the only one that made this thread about Conservative MP Jason Kenney and his, to some, "white-supremacist like" statements. That was YOU!

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[waldo]

Now if we are talking about giving tips on ignorant fits of rage, then yes, I would take your advice all day long.

pro-tip: please read this slowly and adjust yourself accordingly!

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[jacee]

Wow....very well thought out jacee.

You must be very proud of the intellect and overall consideration you put into that post.

Yes, I'm a believer in epigrammatic communication, parsimony of verbiage.

Your lengthy off-topic rants are quite tiresome.

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[jacee]

I didn't miss anything; again, that's YOU pulling a reference back from the other thread... that's YOU quoting it here! Like I said, YOU'RE the only one that made this thread about Conservative MP Jason Kenney and his, to some, "white-supremacist like" statements. That was YOU!

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Yes it was him.

And his strategy to derail this thread too ... is working.

I've revised my opinion of AN based on his aggressive 'defence' of Jason Kenney: I thought he was just a lone wolf right-winger, but it appears that he is a Conservative operative.

Hmmm ... Why do you think AN tries to suppress any intelligent information and discussion about ancient human population of the Americas?

Let's just ignore him and have the intelligent conversation anyway.

Edited July 1, 2016 by jacee

[Accountability Now]

I didn't miss anything; again, that's YOU pulling a reference back from the other thread...

yes waldo....I go by a secret handle named jacee. It was I that posted that link and talked about dogma. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

To be fair, I learned the trick of staring an alternate handle from you.

pro-tip:

Please....get the help you need

[Accountability Now]

I thought he was just a lone wolf right-winger, but it appears that he is a Conservative operative

Yes jacee....I was working with Squid and Smallc on this one. Cuz....you know how they love their Conservative policies.

Let's just ignore him and have the intelligent conversation anyway.

Yes...please do ignore any factual, objective fact presented especially when it directly conflicts with your meme. I see it has got you this far on the forum!

[waldo]

Yes it was him.

And his strategy to derail this thread too ... is working.

I've revised my opinion of AN based on his aggressive 'defence' of Jason Kenney: I thought he was just a lone wolf right-winger, but it appears that he is a Conservative operative.

of course it was him... as a consequence of his getting the other thread locked, he had to bring it here! He was the guy that brought the issue of Jason Kenney's, to some, white supremacist like statements/positions here - that was him! And he's loudly squealing it wasn't him... the guy is spinning wildly - a fevered whirling-dervish! A Jason Kenney surrogate... an operative, you say! He hasn't added anything of substance to this thread; instead, preferring to continue derailing the thread... no doubt aiming to get this thread locked as well!.

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Wow, that's interesting"

" ancestry more closely related to indigenous Australians, New Guineans and Andaman Islanders than to any present-day Eurasians or Native Americans."

It makes so much more sense than pretending that America sat unpopulated while the rest of the world was being populated.

The timing of that ocean migration would explain what appears to be a much longer time frame of diversity in linguistic evolution of Indigenous languages in America.

Later migration via the Bering land bridge would not explain why this early evidence of human occupation lies in South America

and this relatively recent DNA analysis extended upon earlier studies of ancient skulls unearthed in Brazil and Colombia that bear stronger resemblance to those of Australasians than the skulls of other Native Americans: Early Holocene human skeletal remains from Santana do Riacho, Brazil: implications for the settlement of the New World.

The multivariate analyses show that they exhibit strong morphological affinities with present day Australians and Africans, showing no resemblance to recent Northern Asians and Native Americans. These findings confirm our long held opinion that the settlement of the Americas was more complicated in terms of biological input than has been widely assumed. The working hypothesis is that two very distinct populations entered the New World by the end of the Pleistocene, and that the transition between the cranial morphology of the Paleoindians and the morphology of later Native Americans, which occurred around 8-9ka, was abrupt. This, in our opinion, is a more parsimonious explanation for the diversity detected than a long, local microevolutionary process mediated by selection and drift. The similarities of the first South Americans with sub-Saharan Africans may result from the fact that the non-Mongoloid Southeast Asian ancestral population came, ultimately, from Africa, with no major modification in the original cranial bau plan of the first modern humans.

[Accountability Now]

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and this relatively recent DNA analysis extended upon earlier studies of ancient skulls unearthed in Brazil and Colombia that bear stronger resemblance to those of Australasians than the skulls of other Native Americans: Early Holocene human skeletal remains from Santana do Riacho, Brazil: implications for the settlement of the New World.

New World....settlers....oh my! Watch out waldo....jacee wont like what you're saying and will turn on you probably calling you a white supremacist for your colonial views. I'm sure you'll respond with an ignorant fit of rage and cause a shame spiral!

[waldo]

To be fair, I learned the trick of staring an alternate handle from you.

you've made this accusation many times now - I suggest you step-up and provide your evidence that I have, that I've ever had, more than one MLW 'handle'... do so, or STFU. Thanks in advance!

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[waldo]

New World....settlers....oh my! Watch out waldo....jacee wont like what you're saying and will turn on you probably calling you a white supremacist for your colonial views. I'm sure you'll respond with an ignorant fit of rage and cause a shame spiral!

to help you get over your fake/false outrage, I suggest you re-read the latest posts in this thread from the member you're hell bent in continuing to harass... after you forced the lock on the other thread, you chased that member here with your continuing tirade in your role as a Jason Kenney surrogate. Time for you to either join the thread as a productive contributor or fade away/out. Thanks in advance.

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[Pateris]

Jacee - the linguistic views of Sapir have largely been discredited in the last 100 years. Recent indications are that some North American indigenous languages are related to central asian and Siberian languages. Genetics, which wasn't even understood a hundred years ago, clearly relates the native American peoples to those of Asia, and it supports the idea that multiple migrations happened. However, genetic drift data indicate that the earliest humanity came across the Bering Strait (either via land or coastal water) was about 18,000 years ago. The Americas were in fact inhabited only by animals until that time. There is NO archaelogical evidence of human occupation in the Americas until that time. This, coupled with the genetic data, discredits the idea that the Americas were populated at a similar time as south-east asia, or that Asia was populated from the Americas.

Your concerns, and those raised a century ago about the linguistic differences between the Americas and Asia are easily explained by the existence of Basque - and language with no linguistic neighbours. Linguistic changes are not as well understood and the idea that there is a constant rate of language drift as imagined in the 19th century, is crap.

[TimG]

here is NO archaelogical evidence of human occupation in the Americas until that time.

To be fair, such evidence could be found or may already exist depending on who you listen to but such evidence does not make the DNA evidence go away. So any such evidence would imply that if earlier groups existed they either died out on their own or were wiped out/assimilated by the settlers that came from Asia later. Edited July 4, 2016 by TimG

[Boges]

So what are other theories then? It seems that all North American First Nations and Indigenous Latin Americans have largely similar racial make-ups even though they have vastly different cultures.

It's pretty clear they have similar racial make-ups with people that live in Asia than any other ethnic or racial group anywhere else on Earth.

And how would a cultures that didn't really evolve beyond hunter gatherers (I guess Central and South American aboriginal groups moved into an agricultural society but not in North America) be able to cross any other body of water other than the Bering Strait?

Edited July 4, 2016 by Boges

[Accountability Now]

to help you get over your fake/false outrage, I suggest you re-read the latest posts in this thread from the member you're hell bent in continuing to harass... question/challenge/rationalize (you pick)

I corrected you on your statement above. You're welcome.

BTW...I did read her latest statement and it still points towards her innate desire to prove that aboriginals were here all along even though the evidence you provided (as did others) showed that at worst, they migrated here from somewhere else. Of course, her primary concern is aboriginal land rights in Canada and how the perception of aboriginals as 'settlers' may affect these rights which she documented in this thread. As such she goes to such absurd lengths to validate these rights by using terms like 'dogma' or 'white supremacists' toward anyone who indicates these people actually settled here at one point. The ironic part is none of that matters when it comes to aboriginal rights as it matters what is in the treaties/Indian Act, so making such outrageous claims is not only absurd but really doesn't accomplish anything either. But hey...you hitch your wagon to that star waldo!

[waldo]

since you ignored the post challenging you to put up or STFU over your repeated accusations I have had/have multiple MLW handles... thanks for SingTFU! I trust you won't reach for this accusation again, right? You know, the same accusation you come forward with whenever your whiling dervish act runs out and the waldo has you so flummoxed! Should we also take it that you're shelved your Jason Kenney surrogate act for now?
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BTW...I did read her latest statement and it still points towards her innate desire to prove that aboriginals were here all along even though the evidence you provided (as did others) showed that at worst, they migrated here from somewhere else. Of course, her primary concern is aboriginal land rights in Canada and how the perception of aboriginals as 'settlers' may affect these rights which she documented in this thread. As such she goes to such absurd lengths to validate these rights by using terms like 'dogma' or 'white supremacists' toward anyone who indicates these people actually settled here at one point. The ironic part is none of that matters when it comes to aboriginal rights as it matters what is in the treaties/Indian Act, so making such outrageous claims is not only absurd but really doesn't accomplish anything either. But hey...you hitch your wagon to that star waldo!

when the member you continue to harass speaks of populating the Americas... is that you reading, "here all along"? In any case, you continue to be off topic... you continue to attempt to derail this thread. Leave or contribute something aligned with the thread OP, hey!

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[Boges]

Genetic evidence for two founding populations of the Americas

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This post by you would indicate you believe that the aboriginal community in South and Central America originated in parts of South Asia.

I question the logistics of such a trip, but regardless. It seems this is ultimately the catalyst towards a rather heated discussion between you an member AN. I guess there's some foolishness about Conservative MP Jason Kenny, I'm not sure the relevance there, nor do I care.

Regardless the post was a rhetorical attempt to get the thread back on track. I clearly failed in my attempt miserably.

Edited July 4, 2016 by Boges

[TimG]

I question the logistics of such a trip, but regardless.

If they could get to Easter Island it is plausible that a group could get to Chili. But even if true natives are still "settlers".

[Boges]

If they could get to Easter Island it is plausible that a group could get to Chili. But even if true natives are still "settlers".

And they'd still be of Asian heritage.

Even from the tip of New Zealand, it's a trip that is comparable to Christopher Columbus' 1492 trip to the Americas

So we're to believe a civilization was able to make a nautical journey comparable to one of a far more advanced civilization several hundred years later? And they didn't have any of the other advances in civilization like agriculture, military and the ability actually record the journey?

Edited July 4, 2016 by Boges

[TimG]

So we're to believe a civilization was able to make a nautical journey comparable to one of a far more advanced civilization several hundred years later? And they didn't have any of the other advances in civilization like agriculture, military and the ability actually record the journey?

You are assuming they were able to get back. A one way trip blown by a storm is plausible. Certainly no less plausible that the endless series of random mutations that gave rise to humans in the first place.

[Boges]

You are assuming they were able to get back. A one way trip blown by a storm is plausible. Certainly no less plausible that the endless series of random mutations that gave rise to humans in the first place.

Well if they were advanced enough to get there in the first place, I'm assuming they could build a comparable boat to get back and tell people of the new world they found with land more vast than anything seen in South Asia.

At least with the Land bridge explanation the method of transportation eventually melted.

[TimG]

Well if they were advanced enough to get there in the first place, I'm assuming they could build a comparable boat to get back and tell people of the new world they found with land more vast than anything seen in South Asia.

The trade winds could have a carried them to the coast of Chili. The same winds would make the journey back much harder. On top of that finding an island in the pacific is like finding needle in a haystack. I doubt they had the navigation technology to reliably achieve such a feat.

A thought experiment: find Easter Island on map and tell me what makes the trip there more plausible given the technology these groups had than a trip from easter island to chili?

Edited July 4, 2016 by TimG

[Boges]

The trade winds could have a carried them to the coast of Chili. The same winds would make the journey back much harder. On top of that finding an island in the pacific is like finding needle in a haystack. I doubt they had the navigation technology to reliably achieve such a feat.

But they had a boat and provisions to make the several week journey. Just doesn't make any sense.

You'd also have to believe they had reason to believe there was a large continent on the other end of the ocean, that would mean they'd have a level of enlightenment that wasn't seen in the human race until much later.

And if they made a pit stop on at Easter Island along the way, that would reveal a level of planning.

Edited July 4, 2016 by Boges

[?Impact]

So we're to believe a civilization was able to make a nautical journey comparable to one of a far more advanced civilization several hundred years later? And they didn't have any of the other advances in civilization like agriculture, military and the ability actually record the journey?

We have concrete evidence that Leif Erikson made his way as far as Newfoundland, and possibly further 500 years before Columbus. As TimG correctly points out, this could have been a one-way venture. A civilization having the technology does not mean that the voyagers (note I don't use the term explorers) themselves had the means in the new land, and perhaps the desire, to fashion a return craft. If you were cast adrift for many weeks/months on the stormy seas, would you want turn around and go back out without a clue how to return safely?

Of course non of this means it happened, just that it is possible.

[TimG]

And if they made a pit stop on at Easter Island along the way, that would reveal a level of planning.

I use Easter Island as an example of an island that was populated by people with simple boats. The fact that they found Easter Island with such simple tech indicates that they were capable of long sea journeys (>1000 miles).

[Boges]

We have concrete evidence that Leif Erikson made his way as far as Newfoundland, and possibly further 500 years before Columbus. As TimG correctly points out, this could have been a one-way venture. A civilization having the technology does not mean that the voyagers (note I don't use the term explorers) themselves had the means in the new land, and perhaps the desire, to fashion a return craft. If you were cast adrift for many weeks/months on the stormy seas, would you want turn around and go back out without a clue how to return safely?

Of course non of this means it happened, just that it is possible.

Scandinavia to Newfoundland is a much shorter journey. And that society was still more advanced than one several hundred years earlier.

If they were adrift in the Pacific Ocean, I doubt they'd have the provisions to survive the trip.

And even if the trip was one direction, you'd likely see some evidence of the origins in the Inca, Mayan or Aztec Empires as it reveals that they were far more advanced than any other civilizations on the Earth at that time.

Edited July 4, 2016 by Boges