Ontario announces plan to destroy its economy

[Argus]

But surely the U.S., the Chinese and the Indians will follow such a lead?

Yes, surely... as soon as they embrace sunny daze.

[ironstone]

Wynne is destroying the province! Know who else was going to destroy the province?

McGuinty! Oh god....he's destroying Ontario. Another couples years and it will be all over for everyone. But wait...know who else was going to destroy Ontario?

Ernie Eves! How could Ontario have an unelected premier! He'll just do whatever the hell he wants. The province will be destroyed.

Oh but wait...know who else was going to destroy Ontario? Mike Harris! His strict fiscal conservatism was going to eliminate everything! But wait, before him it was....

Bob Rae! Remember Rae days!? He was destroying Ontario!

blah blah blah David Peterson, blah blah blah Frank Miller, blah blah blah Bill Davis......

There actually was a time when Ontario was described as the engine of Canada's economy or something like that.Ontario has,without a doubt fallen far from those great days.And much of the blame for that downfall can be placed on McGuinty/Wynne and their monumentally idiotic Green Energy Act.

I cannot believe how foolish and costly this plan will be......and the worst part may be that Wynne will likely get another majority next election.This will do a lot of damage to Ontario and Canada as a whole.

And emissions don't go down if businesses simply move elsewhere.

[cybercoma]

Ontario manufacturing was gutted by a Canadian dollar that rode high on the oil boom. Blaming McGuinty and especially Wynne is partisan trash.

[TimG]

Ontario manufacturing was gutted by a Canadian dollar that rode high on the oil boom. Blaming McGuinty and especially Wynne is partisan trash.

One does not build a high value economy on a low currency. If manufacturing stagnated it was due to the global trend to move manufacturing to China. It was not helped by the brain dead policies of the Liberals who sat around dreaming up schemes that told manufacturers they are not welcome in Ontario. Edited May 18, 2016 by TimG

[cybercoma]

Right because having the dollar above the US dollar for awhile meant nothing. Keep up the partisan drivel.

[TimG]

Right because having the dollar above the US dollar for awhile meant nothing. Keep up the partisan drivel.

The only one spewing partisan drivel is you with your attempt to blame the decline entirely on the dollar. The dollar increases costs of locally sourced input but it decreases the cost of imports which could have allowed manufacturers to invest in machinery and other productivity improving items. So it should have been something manufacturers could adapt to. But making those kinds of investments would require that they have confidence in the future and that is where the anti-business policies of the Liberals hurts from their obsession in increasing the cost of energy or their plans to raise labour costs and taxes. The net result is businesses with capital realized that were better places to put their money whether it was Mexico or China.

Frankly, the willful blindness to the inevitable consequences of their 'feel good' policies is what makes Liberals and their ilk so dangerous. They would happily drive the economy into the ground while telling people how wonderful they are because they "care".

Edited May 18, 2016 by TimG

[Smallc]

The only one spewing partisan drivel is you with your attempt to blame the decline entirely on the dollar.

Well, there was that whole financial crisis thing.

[Smoke]

Simply amazing that the very people defending these corrupt, incompetent bastards are the ones accusing others of being partisan.

[cybercoma]

Well, there was that whole financial crisis thing.

Exactly and nowhere did I say it was entirely the dollar, but that sure as hell contributed to it. It wouldn't have mattered who the hell was running Ontario at the time. But TimG and the other partisans can pretend this is all the fault of politicians, while simultaneously making excuses at the federal level for why it's not Harper's fault. This is partisan trash posting at its finest.

[cybercoma]

Simply amazing that the very people defending these corrupt, incompetent bastards are the ones accusing others of being partisan.

Who's defending them? McGuinty and Wynne's should be relegated to the back corner of Queen's Park for the power plant fiasco alone. What's partisan garbage is to pretend that Ontario's economy is so tightly controlled that either of them could have done a damn thing about the increased cost of our goods abroad when the dollar was above the US dollar and that either of them could have done a damn thing about the global economic crisis that you partisan hacks like to point to when it comes to Harper's shortcomings of not supporting a diversified economy.

[TimG]

But TimG and the other partisans can pretend this is all the fault of politicians

I did not say that anymore than you claim you did not say it was all the C$. The fact is the business environment is complex and many of the factors are completely out the control of the politicians. That does not excuse politicians for screwing up on those factors which ARE under government control. In the Ontario case those factors were energy prices and labour costs through measures like additional payroll taxes and the threat of future tax increases due to profligate spending. If a Conservative government failed to look after those fundamentals I would criticize them too.

BTW: Politicians do NOT control the mix of industries in a economy unless they want to deliberately kill off successful industries. It is absurd to suggest that any government of any stripe had any control over the massive flow of private money into resources because when resources were booming that was where there was money to be made.

Edited May 18, 2016 by TimG

[Smoke]

Well said TimG.

Also I suppose the elimination of the natural gas industry won't be Orville's fault either.

[waldo]

Also I suppose the elimination of the natural gas industry won't be Orville's fault either.

clarification please: I keep reading you referring to someone named "Orville"... who is this... do you have a last name?

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[cybercoma]

And none of those things would have saved Ontario. It's convenient for you to believe they would because you'd defend conservative governments no matter what they do, contrary to what you say. But there isn't a damn thing Ontario could have done about the global economy and there's even less they could have done about energy prices. Keep scapegoating though. It definitely shows how "nonpartisan" you are.

[waldo]

Union Gas s quoted as saying this would result in a 600% increase in the cost of heating for consumers.

say what! Ya ya, that comment is getting big-air! Imagine, a gas company faced with significant impact offering up an unsubstantiated cost factor - go figure! Enbridge Gas has long had a 'savings calculator' as an inducement for Ontario residents to switch to gas... methinks to place more credence in something like that over a comment coming from a Union Gas media rep... who acknowledges Union Gas has not seen the plan.

I tweaked the criteria within that savings calculator 3 different times and came up with an average where electricity was ~210% more costly than gas... an annual price differential, on average, of about $1500. Enbridge Gas was also up front in acknowledging that high efficiency heating systems are 90% efficient and conventional/mid efficient heating systems are considered to be 80% efficient.

but wait, what's this? What's the key point detractors are avoiding in this thread as they "purposely" presume to play the high-cost impact card for consumers? That's right... somehow, no one has mentioned that the proposed plan states any impacting price increases to consumers will be subsidized by the province. Now why would that lil' ditty be ignored by the detractos, hey?

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[Boges]

People currently get government rebates for high efficiency forced gas furnace. Does that end now? I wouldn't even know where to buy an electrical furnace. Anyone who heats their home with electricity hates it.

And what of all these gas powered power plants that Ontario has built, cancelled, then built again? When do those get shut down?

I don't suspect this government will live to see this plan through.

[waldo]

Anyone who heats their home with electricity hates it.

not me! Why does your "anyone"... uhhh... "hate it"? As for your other questions, you'll need to wait for the plan details and related analysis - yes?

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[Boges]

not me! Why does your "anyone"... uhhh... "hate it"? As for your other questions, you'll need to wait for the plan details and related analysis - yes?

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You really prefer an electric baseboard heater, likely using electricity generated by natural gas over a natural gas heater? To each their own. Baseboard heating is usually found in more low income or older dwellings

Often Nat Gas furnaces have humidifiers attached so you can keep the thermostat lower because the air is more humid. Electric heat is very dry.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Boges

[waldo]

You really prefer an electric baseboard heater, likely using electricity generated by natural gas over a natural gas heater? To each their own. Baseboard heating is usually found in more low income or older dwellings

Often Nat Gas furnaces have humidifiers attached so you can keep the thermostat lower because the air is more humid. Electric heat is very dry.

OMG! Did not know that electric meant "baseboard"! Also... did not know that you couldn't add a detached humidifier... or that heat/air exchangers didn't include them! #BogesDoesn'tKnow

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Edited May 18, 2016 by waldo

[TimG]

And none of those things would have saved Ontario.

Maybe the macro trends are inevitable. However, industry would have been stronger if the Ontario government had not spent so much effort developing policies designed to drive away industry.

[Topaz]

I hope the media is a peeved off as people are and keep this going and I like to hear from voters from TO. what they think of this unbelievable idea! One person I was talking to said he wondered what drug they were on and I said I said I think they NEED some to straighten out their thinking!

[Boges]

OMG! Did not know that electric meant "baseboard"! Also... did not know that you couldn't add a detached humidifier... or that heat/air exchangers didn't include them! #BogesDoesn'tKnow

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Doesn't speak to the fact that with Time of Use electric rates, and the price of natural gas, no one would opt to go with electricity to heat their homes.

So those benefits have to stop, like now! All those new houses being built in the GTA aren't being built with electric furnaces. The government is going to show up in 10, 20 years to rip them all out? Sounds like a huge waste of money to me. Oh that's what this government does best.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Boges

[waldo]

I hope the media is a peeved off as people are and keep this going and I like to hear from voters from TO. what they think of this unbelievable idea! One person I was talking to said he wondered what drug they were on and I said I said I think they NEED some to straighten out their thinking!

you earlier raised a concern based on your presumed personal cost impact... you are aware the plan overview speaks to subsidizing increase costs to consumers - yes?

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[waldo]

Sounds like a huge waste of money to me. Oh that's what this government does best.

you've already made up your mind before seeing the plan details... why, even before getting a chance to search for detracting analysis... of the actual plan!

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[Boges]

you earlier raised a concern based on your presumed personal cost impact... you are aware the plan overview speaks to subsidizing increase costs to consumers - yes?

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So let's assume the retail cost of an electric furnace, including installation is $3,000. You believe that the Ontario government can afford to provide a 100% subsidy to every home not currently using electric heating? Including those currently under construction or recently built? Also retrofitting those crappy, inefficient baseboard heaters would be in order too, I imagine.