Fort McMurray wildfire

msj · May 10, 2016

Has anyone provided evidence that the offers of help would be useful in bringing the fire under control?

But but but more is always better!

Better than letting a fire burn itself out, for example.... which is probably where it is (mostly) at now.

Derek 2.0 · May 10, 2016

The lack of explanation is the most perplexing part to me, otherwise I would try and understand. But a 'nah, we got this sucker under control' as it gets massively more and more out of control every day seems pretty strange.

But but but Goodale said we don't need them so it must be true....

As it moves into Saskatchewan........

BC_chick · May 10, 2016

Has anyone provided evidence that the offers of help would be useful in bringing the fire under control?

I think simple mathematical logic would indicate that more people fighting a fire would be more effective than less....

With logic being on the side of quantity, I think the burden of proof falls on those making a claim that more is not more effective (ie you).

bush_cheney2004 · May 10, 2016

Has anyone provided evidence that the offers of help would be useful in bringing the fire under control?

U.S. satellite imagery and sensors (e.g. MODIS) provide helpful information for wildfire detection and management of resources in Canada....for many years now. But Trudeau doesn't need that either, right ?

http://cwfis.cfs.nrcan.gc.ca/background/dsm/fm3

Edited May 10, 2016 by bush_cheney2004

Derek 2.0 · May 10, 2016

Yeah, and it can be stored and mixed over several drops.

You understand load carrying capacity is finite?

That was never in dispute. Gallons per hour is the measure of importance.

Did you not state Quebec's four aircraft represented more capacity then already on scene or leased by the Provincie.........you see, this is the problem with making things up, facts getting in the way, like one Electria having nearly the capacity of four of the 415s when taking off from water...

According to the information available to you, we declined the help because it wouldn't be helpful. If you have other information, provide it.

It doesn't work like that......well maybe in North Korea.....when for the last week+ we've been hearing how those on the ground are overwhelmed, how only a miracle from mother nature would put the fire out, and now, according to Goodale, everything is a-ok.. :rolleyes:

Smallc · May 10, 2016

I think simple mathematical logic would indicate that more people fighting a fire would be more effective than less....

Up to a point that's true.

With logic being on the side of quantity, I think the burden of proof falls on those making a claim that more is not more effective (ie you).

I don't know, we've been told that people in the fire management system said that outside help was un needed/welcome. I think the burden of proof falls on those saying otherwise.

Derek 2.0 · May 10, 2016

I think simple mathematical logic would indicate that more people fighting a fire would be more effective than less....

With logic being on the side of quantity, I think the burden of proof falls on those making a claim that more is not more effective (ie you).

That would be the logical conclusion................and I agree 100% on burden of proof......whats next, Trudeau golfs 18 holes in one well controlling the weather with his moods?

I still wanna know why Canadians displaced by the fire aren't given the same treatment as Syrian refugees?

BC_chick · May 10, 2016

Up to a point that's true.I don't know, we've been told that people in the fire management system said that outside help was un needed/welcome. I think the burden of proof falls on those saying otherwise.

Look, I'm not a Trudeau fan, but I'm not a total hater. I'm open to understanding things and I googled thoroughly trying to find an explanation as to why this help was rejected.

I did not find anyone but the Trudeau government saying this and no explanation was offered so if you have other 'people in fire management system' who said otherwise, please share.

When something defies logic, it is up to the person making the claim to provide evidence and/or an explanation.

Smallc · May 10, 2016

Did you not state Quebec's four aircraft represented more capacity then already on scene or leased by the Provincie.........you see, this is the problem with making things up, facts getting in the way, like one Electria having nearly the capacity of four of the 415s when taking off from water...

I was being dramatic. You need to lighten up sometimes. The 415 is an amazing machine in action, and carries almost half what the electra does and in many situations in Canada's wilderness, can drop it on a fire and reload in minutes. It really does add almost as much capability as Alberta otherwise had available for a fire line this with so many lakes close by. It's a capability that no one west of Manitoba has.

It doesn't work like that......well maybe in North Korea.....when for the last week+ we've been hearing how those on the ground are overwhelmed, how only a miracle from mother nature would put the fire out, and now, according to Goodale, everything is a-ok..

That's not what Goodale said:

His next line was "This beast is so big the only thing that will fix it is rain."

BC_chick · May 10, 2016

That would be the logical conclusion................and I agree 100% on burden of proof......whats next, Trudeau golfs 18 holes in one well controlling the weather with his moods?

I still wanna know why Canadians displaced by the fire aren't given the same treatment as Syrian refugees?

This has nothing to do with refugees, they are two separate things.

Smallc · May 10, 2016

Look, I'm not a Trudeau fan, but I'm not a total hater. I'm open to understanding things and I googled thoroughly trying to find an explanation as to why this help was rejected.

I did not find anyone but the Trudeau government saying this and no explanation was offered so if you have other 'people in fire management system' who said otherwise, please share.

As Cyber said earlier - have you seen Notley or anyone else criticize the fact that they declined the help?

Notley, (if I recall) even went as far as to say that they were using the maximum number if air tankers that they could safely coordinate at the fire.

When something defies logic, it is up to the person making the claim to provide evidence and/or an explanation.

No. You're making a claim contrary to the best knowledge we have on the matter (the line by Goodale - the person in charge of this from the federal end). Prove the claim.

Derek 2.0 · May 10, 2016

U.S. satellite imagery and sensors (e.g. MODIS) provide helpful information for wildfire detection and management of resources in Canada....for many years now. But Trudeau doesn't need that either, right ?

http://cwfis.cfs.nrcan.gc.ca/background/dsm/fm3

You would think.........according to Bloomberg, this fire will have more impact on us as a nation then Katrina had on the United States......President Bush didn't turn offers of help down during Katrina.........

msj · May 10, 2016

..In Alberta's case, that's at around ~$50 million dollars.........

Interesting that the Slave Lake fire cost the Feds $1.4 billion.

One would logically think that your number of $50 million is way too low.

http://www.cknw.com/2016/05/09/how-true-is-it-canadian-government-spends-more-on-syrian-refugees-than-fort-mcmurray-wildfires/?sc_ref=direct

Smallc · May 10, 2016

You would think.........according to Bloomberg, this fire will have more impact on us as a nation then Katrina had on the United States......President Bush didn't turn offers of help down during Katrina.........

How many people died during Katrina? A drop in GDP growth is hardly a larger impact than a large loss of life.

Derek 2.0 · May 10, 2016

This has nothing to do with refugees, they are two separate things.

No, it has everything to do with the treatment of Canadians......Trudeau would have been crucified if the Syrians were loaded end-to-end in a facility meant for cattle and boat shows, on old army cots, in unsanitary conditions that results in a virus sweeping through the evacuees.......hence my point, there is one standard for Trudeau's refugees, and one standard for the treatment of homeless Albertians.......why can't we put the Fort Mac residents up in hotels in Edmonton?

BC_chick · May 10, 2016

As Cyber said earlier - have you seen Notley or anyone else criticize the fact that they declined the help?Notley, (if I recall) even went as far as to say that they were using the maximum number if air tankers that they could safely coordinate at the fire.No. You're making a claim contrary to the best knowledge we have on the matter (the line by Goodale - the person in charge of this from the federal end). Prove the claim.

I *questioned* a claim because it's illogical, I did not *make* a claim. Goodale is the one making a claim and he has not provided an explanation. Nor have you.

Notley agreeing or not is not an explanation. Nice try though.

jacee · May 10, 2016

I still wanna know why Canadians displaced by the fire aren't given the same treatment as Syrian refugees?

I'm sure any of them out of work will get welfare and housing too.

.

BC_chick · May 10, 2016

No, it has everything to do with the treatment of Canadians......Trudeau would have been crucified if the Syrians were loaded end-to-end in a facility meant for cattle and boat shows, on old army cots, in unsanitary conditions that results in a virus sweeping through the evacuees.......hence my point, there is one standard for Trudeau's refugees, and one standard for the treatment of homeless Albertians.......why can't we put the Fort Mac residents up in hotels in Edmonton?

You are seriously wondering why we can't put up 90 thousand people in hotels in Edmonton?

Derek 2.0 · May 10, 2016

Interesting that the Slave Lake fire cost the Feds $1.4 billion.

One would logically think that your number of $50 million is way too low.

http://www.cknw.com/2016/05/09/how-true-is-it-canadian-government-spends-more-on-syrian-refugees-than-fort-mcmurray-wildfires/?sc_ref=direct

~$50 million is the threshold for where the Feds become (by law) on the hook for 90+% of the cost born by Government..........if you're going to parse quotes, include the cite with the actual formula I provided....... :rolleyes:

jacee · May 10, 2016

You are seriously wondering why we can't put up 90 thousand people in hotels in Edmonton?

Apparently there are 30,000 there staying somewhere.

.

Derek 2.0 · May 10, 2016

I'm sure any of them out of work will get welfare and housing too.

.

They are keeping thousands of Canadians in the expo center in Northlands.......that's concrete floors meant for cattle/RVs/Boats, not families crammed in suffering from a virus from the unsanitary conditions......and its safe to assume, these Canadians were the low income earners in Fort Mac without anywhere else to go.......

There is no reason these people couldn't be put up in the modest hotels by the Edmonton airport.......it was done for Syrians, it should be done for Canadians that just lost everything in one of the biggest disasters in our nations history....

msj · May 10, 2016

~$50 million is the threshold for where the Feds become (by law) on the hook for 90+% of the cost born by Government..........if you're going to parse quotes, include the cite with the actual formula I provided.......

All your whining about the Syrians made it sound as if you thought this was going to cost less than the refugee costs.

Clearly not the case.

As for the $50 million number - um, yeah that was likely surpassed a long time ago so not sure what you were trying to say other than to attempt to make it look like the Feds were going to not be paying for most of the costs or trying to deflect the dollar amount to a small number to help your appeal that the Feds were spending more on refugees than disaster relief.

Smallc · May 10, 2016

I *questioned* a claim because it's illogical

Because you don't have the information on the subject. You don't have an understanding of incident command. You don't have an understanding of air control, spacing, and proximity. You don't have an understanding of the danger posed to ground crews by a fast moving wild fire. You don't have an understanding of the relevant training that the foreign firefighters may or may not have received. You're not the people making the decisions on the ground. I'm not about to question them. Trudeau would not have made this decision without proper input. It would be stupid politics.