Should Canada's cellular network be nationalized?

[cybercoma]

I'm not sure about the idea of nationalizing the existing network, but perhaps there is a role for government in expanding coverage in remote areas where low populations make cell service commercially unprofitable. They could set up towers in remote areas and allow the commercial carriers to use them.

-k

Let's hand out more welfare to multimillion dollar corps while they rake customers over the coals.

[cybercoma]

Da comrade!! Lmfao

How about deep 6 the crtc and open it up to the americans to compete and set up shop.

Our cell service is shite because the companies bide behind the crtc as a shield.

Ever look at US cell prices. It's delusional to think they wouldn't charge exactly the same. They do not compete with each other. Not there and not here. This isn't a free market industry. It's an industry that was built in handouts from the people (read: government) who now pay for the "privilege" of the services they helped set up.

[cybercoma]

Its 100$ a month for a cell phone which thanks to tech doubles as a computer.

Did you give up your laptop/desktop when you got a phone?

[cybercoma]

Pharma.

Good call

[dre]

Why?

Based on what? Comparisons with countries which have huge population densities?

We have some of the highest prices and worst service in the industrialized world and costs are increasing at 3X the rate of inflation.

Without competition you kill any incentive to upgrade technology. You would also ensure that any new tech that rendered the government monopoly obsolete would be blocked because governments would want to protect their cash cow.

That's why I want to increase competition. The government would only own the infrastructure. Similar to how we have hundreds of shipping and trucking companies that all use public roads.

If two or three shipping companies owned all the roads they would use predatory practices to prevent competition and shipping would cost way more.

[Wilber]

Did you give up your laptop/desktop when you got a phone?

Nope, we have iPhones, iPads, Android tablets a laptop and desktop. I know desktops are losing favour but there are some things that I much prefer to do on my desktop even though it is six years older than my laptop. My desktop does run Windows 10 quite well though, even if it isn't super fast. At some point I will buy another desktop.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Wilber

[eyeball]

Good call

And dentistry too. Why it wasn't rolled it into medical coverage decades and decades ago is a mystery to me.

[cybercoma]

Dental, vision, and medication should,all be part of the provincial healthcare plans.

[TimG]

We have the 2 or 3 players, but I'm skeptical that they have any intention of competing with each other.

What makes you think they don't?

[bush_cheney2004]

(didn't HDTV happen in large measure because of US government intervention? It seems to me there was a great deal of hollering about Congress and the FCC interfering in the market and forcing people to adopt a standard that people didn't actually want...)

Not exactly....the U.S. FCC created the "Grand Alliance" of manufacturers, service providers, research institutions, etc. to come up with a uniform DTV standard, which is now ATSC. There was already digital television in existence with different standards in the United States and other nations (e.g. Japan). I don't know what DTV standard Canada later adopted and deployed, but I suspect it is not very different.

But don't let me rain facts on yet another Canadian parade that points at the USA for what government should or shouldn't do for nationalizing telecommunications services in Canada. "Look at what they have....."

[TimG]

That's why I want to increase competition. The government would only own the infrastructure. Similar to how we have hundreds of shipping and trucking companies that all use public roads.

Except the government does a barely adequate job keeping the keeping the roads maintained which is a fairly low tech job. They also have absolute no ability to plan and fund new expenditures in a timely fashion (look the various military equipment fiascos). The government is simply not suited for owning something that requires a constant level of investment as technology improves. Edited April 11, 2016 by TimG

[Wilber]

Dental, vision, and medication should,all be part of the provincial healthcare plans.

You can have it all if you are willing to pay for it and elect a government that will legislate it.

[TimG]

You can have it all if you are willing to pay for it and elect a government that will legislate it.

The fact is the people who want these things either don't have money to pay more taxes or don't want their own taxes raised. They expect other people to pay for their demands.

[eyeball]

Except the government does a barely adequate job keeping the keeping the roads maintained which is a fairly low tech job. They also have absolute no ability to plan and fund new expenditures in a timely fashion (look the various military equipment fiascos). The government is simply not suited for owning something that requires a constant level of investment as technology improves.

That's only because no one is keeping an adequate eye on the government Tim.

Do that and everything changes. Who knows we may find that capitalism actually does work as advertised.

[dre]

Here's a breakdown of 4G prices. It shows what an absolute drubbing Canadian consumers take at the hands of our cell phone tri-opoly.

There's absolutely no reason for us to put up with this unless we just WANT to pay way more for less.

Country

Company

USD

Local currency

Calls

SMS&MMS

4G data

1

France

Free

$27.33

19.99€

Unlimited

Unlimited

20 GB

2

Denmark

Bibob

$39.80

218 kr

Unlimited

Unlimited

10 GB

3

USA

MetroPCS

$60.00

$60.00

Unlimited

Unlimited

Unlimited

4

Thailand

DTAC

$64.81

฿2,100.00

Unlimited

Unlimited

12 GB

5

Sweden

Comviq

$65.52

445.00 kr

Unlimited

Unlimited

13 GB

6

Spain

Vodafone

$68.30

50.00€

Unlimited

Unlimited

6 GB

7

U.K.

EE

$70.30

£40.99

Unlimited

Unlimited

6 GB

8

Russia

MTS

$72.90

RUB 2,500.00

Unlimited

Unlimited

Unlimited

9

Australia

Vodafone

$75.10

$80

Unlimited

Unlimited

6 GB

10

Germany

O2

$75.10

54.98€

Unlimited

Unlimited

5 GB

11

Hong Kong

Tree

$77.20

HK$598.00

Unlimited

Unlimited

10 GB

12

Mexico

Iusacell

$91.60

$1,199.00

Unlimited

Unlimited

3 GB

13

United Arab Emirates

Etisalat

$95.29

AED 350.00

Unlimited

Unlimited

10 GB

14

Italia

Tim

$107.50

79.00€

Unlimited

Unlimited

9 GB

15

NZ

Vodafone

$113.00

$129.00

Unlimited

Unlimited

5 GB

16

Canada

Telus

$117.00

$125.00

Unlimited

Unlimited

10 GB

[eyeball]

The fact is the people who want these things either don't have money to pay more taxes or don't want their own taxes raised. They expect other people to pay for their demands.

We expect our government to do its job and collect all the taxes that are due and payable by everyone.

Do that and everything changes. Who knows we may even find that socialism works better.

[dre]

The fact is the people who want these things either don't have money to pay more taxes or don't want their own taxes raised. They expect other people to pay for their demands.

This is just a stupid meme. There's plenty of people that want high levels of public services who are willing to pay for them, and can afford to.

[kimmy]

But don't let me rain facts on yet another Canadian parade that points at the USA for what government should or shouldn't do for nationalizing telecommunications services in Canada. "Look at what they have....."

I was responding to Argus's claim that it wouldn't have happened if it were left to the government. As it turns out, the FCC played a significant role in not just creating the new standard, but also enforcing its adoption.

-k

[TimG]

This is just a stupid meme. There's plenty of people that want high levels of public services who are willing to pay for them, and can afford to.

Except there are a much larger number of people who was services but expect others to pay for them. Why do you think all of the parties promising more spending say they will only tax 'rich people' or 'corporations'? If the group you referred to was a significant block of voters they would not have to lie like that. Edited April 11, 2016 by TimG

[bush_cheney2004]

I was responding to Argus's claim that it wouldn't have happened if it were left to the government. As it turns out, the FCC played a significant role in not just creating the new standard, but also enforcing its adoption.

Member Argus is correct, as it wasn't the FCC that created DTV in the United States. That was already well underway with several competing standards.

Edited April 11, 2016 by bush_cheney2004

[TimG]

Here's a breakdown of 4G prices. It shows what an absolute drubbing Canadian consumers take at the hands of our cell phone tri-opoly.

I think this is a better way to do cross country comparisons:

http://www.iphoneincanada.ca/carriers/canadian-wireless-carriers-have-the-highest-margins-worldwide-report/

And in terms of revenue per user the US is equal to Canada.

In terms of profit margin Canada and the US are in the top ten.

Australia is the only country which I would say has comparable geographic issues so the question is what are they doing differently. I found this report:

http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/download/5jxt46dzl9r2.pdf?expires=1460342578&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=74AA0EF3EE0C2E2DF3C5DBD090AEC5D0

It appears that there are only 3 providers in Australia too so the number of companies is not the reason for the difference.

In fact the report above makes the point that:

While price is only one element in assessing the value provided to a customer, others being quality of

service, coverage and so forth, the clear trend in Australia has been for consumers to receive less included

data in their mobile bundles.

So maybe a simple comparison of prices is not reasonable.

Do you have a more wholistic method to measure value delivered for price paid?

Edited April 11, 2016 by TimG

[kimmy]

Let's hand out more welfare to multimillion dollar corps while they rake customers over the coals.

It needn't be welfare. It could be paid for by a levy placed on Canada's telecom providers, much like how phones for US welfare recipients are subsidized by a fee paid by the telecom providers. Or it could be a joint venture using money and expertise from private telecom corporations. Considering how during their "Fair for Canada" campaign the Big 3 wrapped themselves in the flag and talked about how they were building Canada, I would think they'd be proud to be partners in such an initiative.

-k

[kimmy]

What makes you think they don't?

The lack of significant differences between the Big 3 providers' products or services or prices. The lack of any significant innovation in terms of products and service plans being offered. Every time I take a look to see if somebody has come up with something new to make me consider shelling out for a real cell plan, the answer is always the same. They're clearly all very happy with how things stand and aren't interested in rocking the boat.

-k

[dre]

Your chart is hard to read but what I can see Telus is competitive when you use the current exchange rate ($125CDN = 90USD).

That said, I

The pricing data is already converted to US dollars.

Sorry... The HTML looked good in the preview but got parsed out at post-time. Here's an easier to read version...

https://www.whistleout.ca/CellPhones/Guides/How-much-does-a-phone-plan-cost-around-the-world

I pay 100 dollars for a service that SHOULD cost around 50 or 60 at the most.

[Wilber]

We expect our government to do its job and collect all the taxes that are due and payable by everyone.

Do that and everything changes. Who knows we may even find that socialism works better.

Except we know that many people receive services who don't pay any taxes and never will. That will always be the case but currently there are 800,000 taxpayers in BC who are exempt from paying MSP premiums in addition to those who pay no income taxes at all, how much farther are you prepared to subsidize these people?