Ontario's Sunshine List is Out again

SpankyMcFarland · January 27, 2017

25 minutes ago, Argus said:

I think CEOs are overpaid, too, but they're overpaid by the private sector. Hospital administrators and University/college heads are public sector workers. I don't for a moment believe that if you have no difficulty finding people willing to work as deputy minister or assistant deputy minister of health for half to a third the price as we're paying hospital administrators, you can find hospital administrators for the same or less. The same goes for university and college heads.

I would not equate universities and hospitals.

Your proposal would mean that the boss of the hospital would earn a lot less than some of the doctors he or she is in charge of managing.

Argus · January 27, 2017

3 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

I would not equate universities and hospitals.

Your proposal would mean that the boss of the hospital would earn a lot less than some of the doctors he or she is in charge of managing.

I think some of them are paid too much, as well. Usually, except where government interferes, earnings are a product of scarcity. When in our history did doctors go from becoming reasonably well-paid professionals, to becoming multi-millionaires? It's not that way in most of the rest of the world, not even in Europe.

Bob Macadoo · January 28, 2017

14 hours ago, Argus said:

I think some of them are paid too much, as well. Usually, except where government interferes, earnings are a product of scarcity. When in our history did doctors go from becoming reasonably well-paid professionals, to becoming multi-millionaires? It's not that way in most of the rest of the world, not even in Europe.

Please cite where doctors are shown to be anything more than successful private business people (if they own a practice). Practice Non-partners are not overly rich or successful, they are employees. Get rid of fee for service and the gov't would need to set up a whole new clinic system......feel that grip on your cojones?

Argus · January 28, 2017

3 hours ago, Bob Macadoo said:

Please cite where doctors are shown to be anything more than successful private business people (if they own a practice). Practice Non-partners are not overly rich or successful, they are employees. Get rid of fee for service and the gov't would need to set up a whole new clinic system......feel that grip on your cojones?

Doctors who work in hospitals have no practice or employees or expenses. They're government employees. Why do they merit $450,000 salaries?

TimG · January 28, 2017

58 minutes ago, Argus said:

Doctors who work in hospitals have no practice or employees or expenses. They're government employees. Why do they merit $450,000 salaries?

A doctor friend who is a GP says that the wages paid to hospital doctors mean it is extremely difficult to get new doctors to become GPs which contributes to the shortage. Many people don't want the hassle of running their own business when they can do the same work and get paid more in a hospital.

SpankyMcFarland · April 1, 2017

On 2017-01-28 at 9:56 AM, Bob Macadoo said:

Please cite where doctors are shown to be anything more than successful private business people (if they own a practice). Practice Non-partners are not overly rich or successful, they are employees. Get rid of fee for service and the gov't would need to set up a whole new clinic system......feel that grip on your cojones?

Big difference between FFS docs (esp. specialists like ophthalmologists, radiologists, cardiologists, dermatologists) and real businessmen in Canada - competition on price. Your regular businessman can go bust tomorrow if a new guy undercuts his prices, and the 'new guy' can be in China or Bangladesh. That can't happen with doctors for insured services. Bankrupt doctors get that way by ignoring CRA for years, very different from owning a restaurant, say, where ruin is constantly around the corner. BTW I know of one bankrupt doctor who went heliskiing near Whistler DURING his bankruptcy. Doctors often go on about costs - some of these are real bricks and mortar things and others are strictly for the taxman to park a fortune in the corporation. In some regions, radiologists and anesthesiologists have no equipment costs and pay a small hospital office fee but I suspect their tax returns contain mountains of other 'expenses'. To any doc who complains of costs I say, show us your return and let us be the judge of how fairly you pay the company directors who happen to be in your family.

We have the silly Sunshine List out again and the major medical earners are exempted and laughing. I actually know of a radiologist who literally laughed about it: makes a fortune (more than nearly anybody on the list) for 40 weeks work a year, pays very little tax up front in his corporation and is never mentioned in the newspapers.

My solution? Many things. Firstly, unleash lads like Argus on those tax returns and give them the power to recommend sensible legal reform. Secondly, get real about medical pay. Many provinces are basically bust at this point. If docs threaten to leave, call their bluff. Thirdly, put all doctors who bill over 100k on the List. That is for starters.

Edited April 1, 2017 by SpankyMcFarland

Michael Hardner · April 1, 2017

Interesting knowledge, Spanky.

Everyone calls for teachers and police to take cuts but there are some that fly under the radar.

Argus · April 1, 2017

12 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

We have the silly Sunshine List out again and the major medical earners are exempted and laughing. I actually know of a radiologist who literally laughed about it: makes a fortune (more than nearly anybody on the list) for 40 weeks work a year, pays very little tax up front in his corporation and is never mentioned in the newspapers.

Years ago, many years ago, when the minimum wage in Ontario was something like $7hr and I was working as a security guard I came upon an ad in the local newspaper for someone to work in the cafeteria at the hospital. Not a cook or anything. Just someone to clean tables and push chairs back into place and carry dishes back to the kitchen and stuff like that. Basic, low skill minimum wage job. Except it was offering $17.50 to start, plus benefits. This was my first indication of how poorly hospitals are managed.

Yes, doctors in hospitals earn too much, as do the administrators. But so too does almost everyone else there at every level, from dietitians to clerks to orderlies and cafeteria workers.

We spend about as much as European countries do for their health care systems, but we don't get the same level of service or coverage. No one ever seems to wonder why that is just so long as we don't adopt an 'American style' system.

Argus · April 1, 2017

I note that the new sunshine list is out and contains the names of 15,000 police officers who earned over $100,000 last year.

This is a result of the truly awful system of automatic increases caused by the province's awful arbitration system. Every town, village and city in the province has been begging the Ontario Liberals to change it for years, but those calls have fallen on deaf ears. Why? Because the ontario police associations donate time and effort each election to re-elect the Liberals, of course. The OPP association even paid for its own pro-Liberal campaign ads last time around. This is part of the overall corruption of the system whereby the Liberals accept large donations and help from public service unions and in return, make sure those public servants are well looked-after in terms of salaries and benefits.

Policing is a much in-demand blue collar job which now pays better than teaching. In many communities in rural Ontario the cops and firelighters are by far the best paid people around, not just in the public sector, earning more than local mayors and councilors, but in the entire community. This is quite simply absurd. Small town cops in areas where there are no gangs and which haven't seen a murder in years still earn more than cops in the gang infested parts of Brooklyn in New York City, despite how low the cost of living is here by comparison.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/sunshine-list-2017-ontario-salaries-2016-1.4037987

Michael Hardner · April 1, 2017

6 minutes ago, Argus said:

1) Except it was offering $17.50 to start, plus benefits. This was my first indication of how poorly hospitals are managed.

2) We spend about as much as European countries do for their health care systems, but we don't get the same level of service or coverage. No one ever seems to wonder why that is just so long as we don't adopt an 'American style' system.

1) That may have been a unionized situation. Management may have had their hands tied, to be fair but...

2) Yes, agreed. A tripartite commission of workers, patients and taxpayers need to deep dive into this situation and come up with answers. I'm even in favour of looking at two-tier (as France does have it) but not if we don't recognize our basic Canadian disinterest in managing public services. That puts me at odds with many left-of-centre people who shrug that the system is fine compared to others (you know who). But I don't accept a mediocre system, even if there are some good aspects.

Why do you think the Liberals are keeping the Sunshine List as is btw ? I don't understand that.

Michael Hardner · April 1, 2017

Just now, Argus said:

Policing is a much in-demand blue collar job which now pays better than teaching.

I respect your fairness in choosing your targets here. When I was young, policing paid much less than teaching, but salaries and staff levels for all emergency services are good politics, as these are our 'heroes'. Replay of my earlier comment above here.

Canada needs a centrist non-repugnant Trump to fix this, negotiate win-wins and not be afraid of creating losers for the greater good.

Argus · April 1, 2017

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

Why do you think the Liberals are keeping the Sunshine List as is btw ? I don't understand that.

Because it would require legislation to get rid of it. Given their already well-remarked-upon cozy relationship with the public service and the back and forth in terms of donations and handouts it would cause an enormous storm if they tried to kill it.

Michael Hardner · April 1, 2017

2 minutes ago, Argus said:

Because it would require legislation to get rid of it. Given their already well-remarked-upon cozy relationship with the public service and the back and forth in terms of donations and handouts it would cause an enormous storm if they tried to kill it.

I guess then the answer is that wynne is deluded into thinking she still has a chance in 2018. My god.

Argus · April 1, 2017

Just now, Michael Hardner said:

I guess then the answer is that wynne is deluded into thinking she still has a chance in 2018. My god.

Wynne has no chance but I would not have thought the Liberals could have gotten elected last time around, even after dumping McGuinty and sending him to Harvard. Never underestimate the ability of the voter to do something selfish and dumb. Getting spending under control is going to be painful. Do you know what the majority of borrowed money was spent on last year? Servicing the existing debt (56%). People want to keep pushing off the inevitable in hopes that they'll manage to escape the storm that follows.

Michael Hardner · April 1, 2017

This means... 1/2 the deficit pays debt ? Is that right ? Is there a relative benchmark for these things among provinces ?

Argus · April 1, 2017

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

This means... 1/2 the deficit pays debt ? Is that right ? Is there a relative benchmark for these things among provinces ?

The only comparison I saw in the editorial this figure comes from was BC.

Ontario owed $20,806 per person in 2014-15, compared to $8,387 in British Columbia. Although Liberals argue they need public “investment” to promote growth, 56 per cent of additional borrowing since 2009-10 went to financing existing loans, while just 26 per cent went to capital spending.

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/kelly-mcparland-quebec-sets-a-fiscal-example-for-the-other-provinces-which-they-will-of-course-ignore

Edited April 1, 2017 by Argus

H10 · April 2, 2017

On 3/27/2016 at 1:09 PM, Argus said:

What drives first responder salaries is an arbitration system which says the arbitrator should use the highest paid police service as the standard in awarding new salary increases. No, it actually isn't as hard to be a cop in Timmins as in Toronto or Ottawa or any other big cities. The danger is lower and the workload lighter, and the cost of living is a fraction of what it is in Toronto. If you look at other earnings you'll find people out in Timmins earn less than in Toronto in every category. But that's okay, because the cost of living is so much lower. The mayor makes $66k. Local councillors make $35-$40k.

Toronto has a far lower crime rate than rural areas which are jobless and therefore far more crime ridden.

H10 · April 2, 2017

7 hours ago, Argus said:

Wynne has no chance but I would not have thought the Liberals could have gotten elected last time around, even after dumping McGuinty and sending him to Harvard. Never underestimate the ability of the voter to do something selfish and dumb. Getting spending under control is going to be painful. Do you know what the majority of borrowed money was spent on last year? Servicing the existing debt (56%). People want to keep pushing off the inevitable in hopes that they'll manage to escape the storm that follows.

Lets not pretend the conservatives will cut the debt, they tripled it last time they had a government and made it far worse than the NDP. Face it, there are no fisically conservative parties in Canada who cut the debt except the federal liberals who did it under Martin.

Ash74 · April 2, 2017

17 hours ago, hernanday said:

Lets not pretend the conservatives will cut the debt, they tripled it last time they had a government and made it far worse than the NDP. Face it, there are no fisically conservative parties in Canada who cut the debt except the federal liberals who did it under Martin.

Yes Martin did it by cutting transfer payments and making the provinces look like the bad guys. Yup the Liberals are saints. The ontario liberals have added over 200 billion in dept since 2003 and added a new tax after every election they got a majority. That is some great finance work.

Michael Hardner · April 2, 2017

22 hours ago, Argus said:

Ontario owed $20,806 per person in 2014-15, compared to $8,387 in British Columbia. Although Liberals argue they need public “investment” to promote growth, 56 per cent of additional borrowing since 2009-10 went to financing existing loans, while just 26 per cent went to capital spending.

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/kelly-mcparland-quebec-sets-a-fiscal-example-for-the-other-provinces-which-they-will-of-course-ignore

Thanks - not what I was looking for though. I will look myself.

Michael Hardner · April 2, 2017

Starting here ... but I'm looking for a comparison of provinces over time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_government_debt

Michael Hardner · April 2, 2017

I'm at risk of drifting here but this page looks good. Argus - comments ?

http://www.parklandinstitute.ca/albertas_immediate_concern_is_limited_revenue_not_debt

H10 · April 2, 2017

1 hour ago, Ash74 said:

Yes Martin did it by cutting transfer payments and making the provinces look like the bad guys. Yup the Liberals are saints. The ontario liberals have added over 200 billion in dept since 2003 and added a new tax after every election they got a majority. That is some great finance work.

It doesn't matter how bad they are, all Ontarians understand that the conservative party is the WORSE party, no matter how bad the liberals are. This is why they keep winning elections. The conservative party will raise taxes, sell off pubic assets (even more), privatize government property to their rich buddies, raise more taxes, fire civil servant and increase the debt MORE.

Argus · April 2, 2017

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

I'm at risk of drifting here but this page looks good. Argus - comments ?

http://www.parklandinstitute.ca/albertas_immediate_concern_is_limited_revenue_not_debt

I have been criticizing Alberta's government for years for borrowing money rather than cutting spending and raising taxes. It's all very well to puff out your chest about being the only province not to have a sales tax, but if they'd had a sales tax the last twenty years they'd have been able to keep putting money into the heritage fund instead of drawing money out of it, and would be in a far better economic place today. Still, I don't know if the middle of a bad economic downturn is the time to introduce new taxes...

Not that that stopped them from introducing carbon taxes, of course. And as O'Leary has pointed out, in part, several big foreign owners have pulled up stakes, sold off their land and left Alberta in the last month or so, totaling some $25 billion in foreign investment being withdrawn.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Argus

Ash74 · April 3, 2017

7 hours ago, hernanday said:

It doesn't matter how bad they are, all Ontarians understand that the conservative party is the WORSE party, no matter how bad the liberals are. This is why they keep winning elections. The conservative party will raise taxes, sell off pubic assets (even more), privatize government property to their rich buddies, raise more taxes, fire civil servant and increase the debt MORE.

You just described the Ontario Liberals. Except they will hire more civil workers for the votes