Another Terrorist Attack in Canada

[cybercoma]

They are when it comes to 'muricans.

That's because American culture is disgusting and regressive.

[cybercoma]

Oh wait, we're only allowed to say that about black culture or Muslim culture. My bad.

[Guest]

You're allowed to say it about any culture you like. You might be right, you might be wrong, but I can't see stopping you saying it.

[eyeball]

Most Canadians aren't aware of a few key facts:

-that the crusades and inquisition were a direct response to 400 years of muslim jihad

-that Mohammed committed genocide himself

-that the muslims committed so many genocides, and so large.

Go talk to a few people you know and ask them if they know any of those things. Most people on this site didn't, and that's after they wrote dozens of posts about how cute and cuddly Islam is.

"Now" refers to - now that we're suddenly bringing in boatloads of people who are theoretically refugees, although they are really just displaced by war, from the world's biggest genocidal terrorist zone and surrounding areas.

Wow! I had no idea.

Thanks, I'll be sure to pay attention now.

[WestCanMan]

We don't have a terrorism problem in Canada.

We have over 1m Muslims living here peacefully, going to soccer and hockey games and parent-teacher nights with their neighbours and working hard to support their families and communities.

We have a problem with police, politicians and miscellaneous catastrophizers trying to create fear of all Muslims, inciting hatred against all Muslims.

Who benefits from that?

Follow the money ...

islamic-extremism-is-a-product-of-western-imperialism/

In order to understand the rise of the Islamic State we must first briefly review the history of Western intervention in not only the Middle East but throughout the world to reveal that Islamic extremism in not a unique phenomenon. For the past 500 years, peoples throughout the world have resorted to acts of violence that today would be classified as terrorism in efforts to resist Western imperialism.

...

The first significant success for Islamic fundamentalism directly resulted from the United States and Britain overthrowing a democratically-elected and secular government and their subsequent support for a brutal dictatorship, all in the name of securing access to oil.

And so it continues ...

The western war on Muslims is, like all wars, designed to line the pockets of the rich and powerful. It's the new colonialism, waging war against resource rich countries to install 'friendly' leaders who make deals and get paybacks for western corporations steal the profits from their resources.

It suits the resource and weapons megacorps - western military-industrial complex - to create broad anti-Muslim sentiment to improve their profits.

It isn't about Islam.

When they wanted North American resources, it was Native Americans who were vilified as 'heathens' and slaughtered.

It's about colonialism ... aggression to take control of resource wealth in other countries, and the backlash/resistance against that.

Here's a current specific case of Canadian aggression in another country, Guatemala:

guatemalan-woman-brings-major-legal-case-against-canadian-mining-corporation/

A Mayan farmers wife from Lote Ocho Guatemala, Caal has become the face of a legal case accusing Canadian company Hudbay Mineral, Inc., of negligence, though the details of the case are far more disturbing. In 2007, security guards from the nearby [Canadian] mine came, along with police officers, to Caals house and demanded entry, and then proceeded to gang-rape her before evicting her and her family from their land.

It's going to be heard in Canadian courts, the first time a Canadian company has been tried for imperialist invasion crimes in another country.

.

Honestly jacee what you wrote there was crap. The muslims slaughtered people in India for almost 1,000 years and it obviously had nothing to do with "the west". They started invading Europe relentlessly 400 years before the crusades started and it was exclusively about spreading their religion. Again, nothing to do with the west, or european imperialism. They committed their own special brand of genocide/rape all over Asia, massacring literally millions of people in the same fashion as Mohammed himself did at Banu Qurayza. Was that because they were mad at the west? Did the sunnis massacre all those shia 1,000 years ago because they were mad at the US? They must have had crystal balls to do all of those things pre-emptively, several 100's of years b4 America was even discovered.

Now you're trying to cite an example of one group of people, who aren't necessarily even Canadian (just people employed by a Canadian company abroad), as an example of what "Canada" is doing to people? If some Mexicans working for VW in Mexico go rape someone is Germany to blame? Can other Mexicans go around to random places like Cuba and Costa Rica raping and murdering millions of people if it's found out to be true? You're off the reservation dude. If we elect a pm that wants to do that, and then we participate in it, I'm game for taking blame. Otherwise you have zero, as is the case here.

I'm talking about over 1,500 years of history, all over europe the middle east and asia, with millions of muslim participants doing the exact same things as their spiritual leader did, and your comeback is "a mayan woman is accusing some people who aren't necessarily even Canadian but they work for a Canadian company" so we are to blame for everything that all of those muslims ever did? I can pretty much walk out my front door and do anything to anyone I want and cite almost anything that ever happened to anyone I know as a valid excuse for it using your "logic".

One more thing: did you notice that the gov't here is actually listening, and looking at the possibility accepting some form of accountability here, or forcing that company to do so? That's not what "really really bad imperialists" do.

[Guest]

In order to get me to agree that Islam is not responsible you have to first define what Islam is. One of the problems with Islam is there is no central hierarchy or authority. Islam is whatever the people make of it, however they choose to read its texts and tenets. The same goes for Christianity, of course, but Christians have always had central authorities, be it the Pope or the Archbishop of Canterbury or various synods.

I think Christianity is far more nebulous than Islam; with it's 30,000+ sects, and the 'you're own personal Jesus' BS that is used by every Christian with an agenda. The Bible, and sadly I have read most of it, is a ponderous, poorly written, very contradictory and ridiculously cherry picked tome. The Quran is more succinct about it's message. As an atheist, I don't want to start a religious congeniality contest, I just disagree on this point. The despicable Westboro a-hats are truer to their religion than most Christians, yet I bet most barely religious United Church members are much better people. Catholics may have a pope, but the vast majority don't care what he says or commands.

Given Islam is most dominant in lands and cultures which are culturally retrograde it has been imbued with the flavour of those cultures over the centuries. It is also stuck in a time warp, its last interpretation having been declared perfect and sacred for all time. But even this centuries old interpretation, somewhat brutish and barbaric by modern sensibilities, can be read in whole or in part depending on what you want. Which leaves extremists free to interpret it however they want.

I agree that Muslim majority countries are often, as you put it, 'culturally retrograde'. That certainly flavours the religion for those that practice it in those countries, just like a Southern Baptist may be culturally seasoned differently than say a Providence Protestant. I'm glad you at least somewhat recognize the cultural influence as it, IMO, plays a major role. For example, think of or lookup, Iran 30 years ago versus today. Imagine, what the US might be like after 30 years of Cruz or Huckabee-like rule. Culture and the politics of those with the power can make a big difference in how a nation's people act and are perceived.

But what is an extremist in terms of these cultures and this religion? All of these cultures are more violent than ours, to begin with. And Islam is open to justifying more violence than the bible given its lack of central authority and given that ,unlike the bible, it contains a brutal legal code, many of which have laws calling for death and dismemberment for what we would consider minor offenses (or what we would not consider offenses at all, like deciding to change your religion). The bible also contains nothing to compare with the many calls for jihad against unbelievers as we find in the Koran.

I agree that the culture in many Muslim majority countries is more extreme, but Christian scripture is just as violent.

Take Chronicles 15:12 for example:

They entered into a covenant to seek the LORD God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul; That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

In my opinion, people in safer, secure, stable, affluent, free and democratic cultures have a lot to lose. They don't like violence, they value equality along with freedom of speech and thought. In that light, religious scriptures whether from the Bible or Quran get either tempered and shaped or simply cherry picked to match cultural sensibilities.

In the end, we can just the religion's impact only by the societies which live by it. And all of those societies are autocratic, with harsh laws on behavior, and a violent response to anyone who questions Islam. Thus it is small wonder there are so very many individuals and groups who seek to fulfill the will of Allah as they see it written in the Islamic texts, by forcing non-believers to believe as they do, or killing them.

All Muslim majority societies? Really?! That's like stating all US Christians are like those in the Bible belt. For the most part, Islamic cultures have certainly lagged behind the world in terms of cultural, scientific and ethical advancement. In most of the world this was largely achieved by tempering and leaving religion behind. However, as mentioned in an earlier post there are several Muslim majority nations with quite tolerant, modern and progressive cultures. Certainly, not what we have in Canada or Scandinavia, but also nothing like what you describe here.

If a religion contains a code of legal conduct and a society is ruled by that code, is that society not a reflection of Islam?

We currently find intolerant, regressive Christianity creeping into the legal code of the most powerful nation on earth. Is that a reflection on the religion or the culture and politics of those with the power in certain states?

If you read the PEW surveys on Muslim attitudes you don't find that widely separated Muslims have wildly different cultural views on social matters which are taught in the Koran. You don't find women being treated equally, or Jews being admired, whether you are in Egypt or Malaysia. You find large numbers of people, majorities, supporting death to blasphemers Apostasy from Asia to Africa to the Middle east.

Keep in mind that many do not feel safe to give honest answers to survey questions. Also, many grow to think that is just how things are and how they should be. That's why grassroots groups in places like Pakistan that aim to reform Islam start by building support for democracy, rights and freedoms. People with more progressive cultural ideas treat their religion much differently than the oppressed.

[jacee]

Honestly jacee what you wrote there was crap. The muslims slaughtered people in India for almost 1,000 years and it obviously had nothing to do with "the west". They started invading Europe relentlessly 400 years before the crusades started ...

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All of which has absolutely nothing to do with the current topic.

What's your point?

'All Muslims always bad ... all nonMuslims always good?'

?

Now you're trying to cite an example of one group of people, who aren't necessarily even Canadian (just people employed by a Canadian company abroad), as an example of what "Canada" is doing to people? If some Mexicans working for VW in Mexico go rape someone is Germany to blame? Can other Mexicans go around to random places like Cuba and Costa Rica raping and murdering millions of people if it's found out to be true?

Canadian companies are responsible for the actions of their employees on their behalf.

That's why it will be heard in court here.

You're off the reservation dude.

I have noticed that some Americans use this offensive slur.

Canadians don't.

Just don't.

Personal attacks are not allowed.

Ethnic slurs are really tacky.

One more thing: did you notice that the gov't here is actually listening, and looking at the possibility accepting some form of accountability here, or forcing that company to do so? That's not what "really really bad imperialists" do.

We're they doing that before?

Or only because a Canadian company got caught?

Canadian companies are terrorists in other countries, controlling governments and pushing people off their land for access to resources.

And my original point was ... western companies are terrorists in Muslim countries in the same way, giving rise to Modern Islamic extremist opposition to western invasion.

That's neither an apology for them nor support for them: It's just the facts.

.

Edited April 8, 2016 by jacee

[WestCanMan]

jacee you're completely off track with every answer.

You blamed the west for everything that muslims are doing. That's why I mentioned that the muslims were doing it before they even dreamed of the west. Your first answer:

"All of which has absolutely nothing to do with the current topic.

What's your point?
'All Muslims always bad ... all nonMuslims always good?'

confirms that you now completely understand that muslims have always been committing genocide. It has nothing to do with the united states. That's all I was hoping for is that you would grasp that concept.

As per your 2nd answer:

Yes Canadian companies are vicariously responsible for the actions of their employees. That's not to say that every single company is aware of and condones the actions of every single person that they employ all over the earth. That's why people get fired all the time. For you to say that those foreign employees are always representing the exact intentions of not just their employer but our entire country as well is just garbage and you know it. Do you think that Wendy's really wants people spitting on hamburgers? They actually don't.The whole story here is "some things may have happened". If they did happen our gov't is happy to prosecute. That's it. You can't extrapolate that into: "every single Canadian is happy to allow our foreign companies to rape and pillage at will". It seems like you want that to be the case so that you can throw down some righteous anger but as usual you have zero proof of your accusations. Do you know why you have no proof? Because it was actually impossible for it to make any sense to begin with. Seriously, where do you find the types of people who agree with the things you say? Do they have jobs?

"Canadian companies are terrorists in other countries, controlling governments and pushing people off their land for access to resources.

And my original point was ... western companies are terrorists in Muslim countries in the same way, giving rise to Modern Islamic extremist opposition to western invasion.

That's neither an apology for them nor support for them: It's just the facts."

Your logic is completely twisted and your understanding of economics vs terrorism is off by orders of magnitude. One more funny thing is that in the first part of your own post you acknowledged that you understand that muslims were committing genocide long before the USA existed. Now you're saying that what the big bad west did to the muslims is what makes them blow people up.

I think that you are happy believing the sick things that you are saying, and I'm done explaining things to you that you manage to repeat yet can't quite fathom.

Edited April 8, 2016 by WestCanMan

[WestCanMan]

I think Christianity is far more nebulous than Islam; with it's 30,000+ sects, and the 'you're own personal Jesus' BS that is used by every Christian with an agenda. The Bible, and sadly I have read most of it, is a ponderous, poorly written, very contradictory and ridiculously cherry picked tome. The Quran is more succinct about it's message. As an atheist, I don't want to start a religious congeniality contest, I just disagree on this point. The despicable Westboro a-hats are truer to their religion than most Christians, yet I bet most barely religious United Church members are much better people. Catholics may have a pope, but the vast majority don't care what he says or commands.

Christianity is nebulous, but that's a good thing in this context. Christianity has been evolving for the last 2,000 years. Islam is stuck in the 600's, and by definition it can't change because Mohammed was the last prophet and the hadith and the Quran are the be-all, end-all for Islam.

I agree that the culture in many Muslim majority countries is more extreme, but Christian scripture is just as violent.

Take Chronicles 15:12 for example:

They entered into a covenant to seek the LORD God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul; That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

True, both religions have a lot of violent text. The main difference lies in what you would do if you were wearing a bracelet that says "WWJD" vs "WWMD".

WWJD: heal, feed, love, make peace, etc. Not a very good video game but a pretty happy place to live.

WWMD: Commit genocide, order the mass rape of all the women in entire towns, take the children of the beheaded prisoners of "war" and the newly-enslaved mothers and strip their culture from them, enslave them, and legally marry them off as young as 6 years old. Tell the kids that if they ever decide to leave Islam they get beheaded. Then give them swords because they make the perfect, soulless killers/slavers. If you made a video game of Mohammed's life it would have scenes of violence and gore that you have never even imagined. What happened in Banu Qurayza is not very different from what's happening in Syria right now. ISIS is following directly in Mohammed's footsteps.

All Muslim majority societies? Really?! That's like stating all US Christians are like those in the Bible belt. For the most part, Islamic cultures have certainly lagged behind the world in terms of cultural, scientific and ethical advancement. In most of the world this was largely achieved by tempering and leaving religion behind. However, as mentioned in an earlier post there are several Muslim majority nations with quite tolerant, modern and progressive cultures. Certainly, not what we have in Canada or Scandinavia, but also nothing like what you describe here.

All muslim societies - maybe not exactly. But all ships rise with the tide, and if a society is muslim-dominated then it is either a terrible place to be or it could turn that way abruptly. Attempts at moderation within muslim-dominated areas have never gotten very far and even at that they have never succeeded for any great length of time.

We currently find intolerant, regressive Christianity creeping into the legal code of the most powerful nation on earth. Is that a reflection on the religion or the culture and politics of those with the power in certain states?

It's not accurate to say it's steadily creeping towards regression. It is far more accurate to say that it has been steadily creeping forward with brief setbacks.

Keep in mind that many do not feel safe to give honest answers to survey questions. Also, many grow to think that is just how things are and how they should be. That's why grassroots groups in places like Pakistan that aim to reform Islam start by building support for democracy, rights and freedoms. People with more progressive cultural ideas treat their religion much differently than the oppressed.

When they feel threatened with death by giving the wrong answer in 1 or more out of 10 fields that's probably all you need to know about the society in which the survey is being conducted lol.

The moderate Pakistanis just finished a rape/genocide in Bangladesh 40 years ago. There was no Nuremburg to follow. No intervention or condemnation by muslim society. Their moderation is not impressive to me. And fwiw they are not "reforming Islam", that cannot be done by definition. They may be letting some of their stricter laws slide a bit but they will never go very far or for very long.

[eyeball]

jacee you're completely off track with every answer.

You blamed the west for everything that muslims are doing.

Everything? Cite precisely where jacee or anyone for that matter has uttered this I'll-informed belief that every single atrocity muslims commit is the fault of the west? The west is simply to blame for the atrocities the west has committed.

Edited April 9, 2016 by eyeball

[WestCanMan]

Everything? Cite precisely where jacee or anyone for that matter has uttered this I'll-informed belief that every single atrocity muslims commit is the fault of the west? The west is simply to blame for the atrocities the west has committed.

Post #432, 2nd last paragraph.

And my original point was ... western companies are terrorists in Muslim countries in the same way, giving rise to Modern Islamic extremist opposition to western invasion.

Edited April 9, 2016 by WestCanMan

[eyeball]

Why shouldn't they be opposed? I'd oppose it if it was happening to me and I sure as hell don't want Canadian companies terrorizing other people either. It reflects very badly on all of us. In the meantime I'm still looking for a cite where jacee or anyone else said...word for word...

You blamed the west for everything that muslims are doing.

[eyeball]

What you need to produce should read like this..."I (jacee, or whoever) blame the west for everything that muslims are doing".

Can you do that...word for word?

[WestCanMan]

What you need to produce should read like this..."I (jacee, or whoever) blame the west for everything that muslims are doing".

Can you do that...word for word?

I cited the exact post you were asking for. It stated very clearly that "western companies are terrorists in Muslim countries in the same way, giving rise to Modern Islamic extremist opposition to western invasion" and it was on the same page.

In point form:

"I (jacee, or whoever)" - the post is obviously hers, I doubt that you want to dispute that

"blame the west" - "giving rise to" equates to saying where the motivation comes from, ie the source of blame. Since she was the one who made the comment, she is stating quite plainly that she puts the blame on the west. I don't see where there's any room to dispute that.

"for everything that" There was no mention of any other sources of blame, just "western companies", so it's natural to assume that there's no other source that is worthy of comment. When a person makes such a declarative and statement you would think that they were trying to portray their opinion accurately. If you notice at the bottom of the post it says that she even took the time to edit it, so there's zero room to say that she didn't clearly state her position.

"muslims are doing". - "Modern Islamic extremist opposition" is exactly what the "muslims are doing". Again, no real room for debate on this point.

I win, you lose. Unless of course you wanna go another round on this one?

Edited April 9, 2016 by WestCanMan

[WestCanMan]

Why shouldn't they be opposed? I'd oppose it if it was happening to me and I sure as hell don't want Canadian companies terrorizing other people either. It reflects very badly on all of us. In the meantime I'm still looking for a cite where jacee or anyone else said...word for word...

Opposed to what? "western companies that are terrorists" ? That's not even a proven thing. It's an article about one alleged occurance! Her one weak example was from Peru or someplace like that. Bolivia? Have we been attacked by a bunch of south american terrorists? It takes a lot more than that lame article to make a declarative statement equating to "western companies have caused so much harm that terrorism is an obvious reaction."

You should be ashamed of that post.

[eyeball]

I cited the exact post you were asking for.

I didn't ask for a post. Go back and read what I said not what you heard.

[WestCanMan]

Everything? Cite precisely where jacee or anyone for that matter has uttered this I'll-informed belief that every single atrocity muslims commit is the fault of the west? The west is simply to blame for the atrocities the west has committed.

What's this eyeball?

[WestCanMan]

What you need to produce should read like this..."I (jacee, or whoever) blame the west for everything that muslims are doing".

Can you do that...word for word?

What's this eyeball?

[WestCanMan]

***snip***

In the meantime I'm still looking for a cite where jacee or anyone else said...word for word...

What's this eyeball?

[WestCanMan]

What you need to produce should read like this..."I (jacee, or whoever) blame the west for everything that muslims are doing".

Can you do that...word for word?

I cited the exact post you were asking for. It stated very clearly that "western companies are terrorists in Muslim countries in the same way, giving rise to Modern Islamic extremist opposition to western invasion" and it was on the same page.

In point form:

"I (jacee, or whoever)" - the post is obviously hers, I doubt that you want to dispute that

"blame the west" - "giving rise to" equates to saying where the motivation comes from, ie the source of blame. Since she was the one who made the comment, she is stating quite plainly that she puts the blame on the west. I don't see where there's any room to dispute that.

"for everything that" There was no mention of any other sources of blame, just "western companies", so it's natural to assume that there's no other source that is worthy of comment. When a person makes such a declarative and statement you would think that they were trying to portray their opinion accurately. If you notice at the bottom of the post it says that she even took the time to edit it, so there's zero room to say that she didn't clearly state her position.

"muslims are doing". - "Modern Islamic extremist opposition" is exactly what the "muslims are doing". Again, no real room for debate on this point.

I win, you lose. Unless of course you wanna go another round on this one?

[eyeball]

You're really not very good at this are you?

[WestCanMan]

You're really not very good at this are you?

Just admit you lost eyeball.

I "Cite[d] precisely where jacee or anyone for that matter has uttered this I'll[ill]-informed belief that every single atrocity muslims commit[ted] is [was]the fault of the west?[.]"

[eyeball]

Where?

Edited April 9, 2016 by eyeball

[WestCanMan]

Where?

There.

[eyeball]

You haven't backed up your claim because you can't. Your mistake was using the word everything when you claimed jacee blamed the west for everything that muslims are doing. Your tendency to trip over your generalizations is even better highlighted in your confused and funny exchange with dre involving liberals. Like I said, you're not very good at this.