300,000 more refugees coming to Canada.

[G Huxley]

Canada doesn't have a monolithic culture either, it's too diverse.

[BC_chick]

Canada doesn't have a monolithic culture either, it's too diverse.

True, but China is not an immigrant nation which is why I thought Argus moving to China isn't as comparable as a Chinese moving to Canada.

[G Huxley]

China is an immigrant nation. It fills the world with its immigrants. Also China is an immigrant nation within what is now China. e.g. Tibet, Outer Mongolia, the Uyghur autonomous region and all the other regions the Han Chinese took over over the centuries to form the Chinese Empire.

Canada is a nation. China is a nation.

China would defend its borders. Why would Canada not defend its borders?

By calling Canada an 'Immigration Nation' it denigrates Canada as a nation without sovereignty beholden to the interests of potential immigrants and not to its own citizens.

That isn't a state. It's a vacuum.

Edited May 11, 2016 by G Huxley

[BC_chick]

By calling Canada an 'Immigration Nation' it denigrates Canada as a nation without sovereignty beholden to the interests of potential immigrants and not to its own citizens.

I'm not sure why you would make a connection like that, it wasn't my point at all.

Canada has been a nation for less than a couple of centuries. Its oldest continuous city is only 400 years old. Everyone with the exception of the FN, have arrived in the last few centuries.

China's territories have changed but it has a long continuous history and they have been cautious of allowing people in (the whole Great Wall thing).

Hence my wording. Nothing to do with sovereignty...

[Argus]

Canada doesn't have a monolithic culture either, it's too diverse.

It does have a culture and it does have values. There might be a wider variance within it than in some more homogeneous cultures, but that does not mean it doesn't exist or that it's not important. Part of its culture, for example, is that women can walk around outside without a man's permission, and without needing protection. Bring in enough people, for example, from the middle east, who feel differently, and that shifts the culture in that direction.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Argus

[G Huxley]

"I'm not sure why you would make a connection like that, it wasn't my point at all."

Its semantic, but semantics shape perception, so they are important.

"Canada has been a nation for less than a couple of centuries. Its oldest continuous city is only 400 years old. Everyone with the exception of the FN, have arrived in the last few centuries."

They didn't immigrate though. They struggled to take it. It is a denigration to our ancestors to give away what they struggled for.

"China's territories have changed but it has a long continuous history and they have been cautious of allowing people in (the whole Great Wall thing)."

My ancestors have a long and continuous history as well. Everyone's does. Respect to China, but they can stay inside their borders and they were smart enough now that you mention it to build the greatest wall the world has ever seen to protect it and defend their borders.

When the west gets an ounce of wisdom that the Chinese have gained over the centuries they will do the same and protect their own borders.

Edited May 11, 2016 by G Huxley

[Argus]

It has been common knowledge for years that Canada's fertility rate was below 2.

Demographics reports which I have posted on numerous occasions have been fairly clear that immigration will not address either the aging population or the low birth rate unless it is increased to such an extent, (ie, one million a year) that all you're doing is replacing the existing population with a transplanted foreign population.

[G Huxley]

It does have a culture and it does have values. There might be a wider variance within it than in some more homogenous cultures, but that does not mean it doesn't exist or that it's not important.

Sure there are some cross cultural tendencies in Canada, but Canada as a monolithic culture is an illusion.

[Argus]

I'm not sure why you would make a connection like that, it wasn't my point at all.

Canada has been a nation for less than a couple of centuries. Its oldest continuous city is only 400 years old. Everyone with the exception of the FN, have arrived in the last few centuries.

That is utterly irrelevant. Multiple generations have lived and died here, and developed a unique culture and value system.

[G Huxley]

True if you follow that logic: Because we are a young state we should just give it away.

[Argus]

Sure there are some cross cultural tendencies in Canada, but Canada as a monolithic culture is an illusion.

Aside from immigrants clinging to old world ways, no it is not. There are things that are simply not done here which are common in other cultures. Corruption, for example, which is endemic in many parts of the world is largely unknown here. Violence at sporting events in the way we see in much of the world, including Europe, is simply not done, other than the occasional drunk. We don't need police with automatic weapons guarding Jewish temples and schools because, over the years, we have made it abundantly clear to newcomers (unlike the French, British and others in Europe) that openly displaying hostility towards other religions will not be accepted. Similarly, we have enforced the idea that women can walk in the streets, wearing whatever they want and cannot be accosted. There are so many ways in which Canada has shunned what is a commonplace happenstance in many of the world's cultures that they can't all be listed, but anyone who travels around the world can certainly recognize them.

Culture is not film, music and books. It is how a people act, react and think about things, and their common behaviour in a society they all inhabit.

[BC_chick]

That is utterly irrelevant. Multiple generations have lived and died here, and developed a unique culture and value system.

I don't deny there is a unique culture and value system in Canada.

[G Huxley]

Argus What you are saying is still not monolithic in Canada in the present state.

"Corruption, for example, which is endemic in many parts of the world is largely unknown here."

Are you delusional?

"Violence at sporting events in the way we see in much of the world, including Europe, is simply not done, other than the occasional drunk."

You must not live in Vancouver or watch Canadian hockey.

"that openly displaying hostility towards other religions will not be accepted."

Yeah because no one here on these boards are openly hostile towards Islam.

In fact in your post above you said things that are openly hostile towards Islamic thought.

Edited May 11, 2016 by G Huxley

[BC_chick]

Culture is not film, music and books. It is how a people act, react and think about things, and their common behaviour in a society they all inhabit.

Do you take issue with the way Italians or Greeks hold on to their heritage?

[Argus]

Argus What you are saying is still not monolithic in Canada in the present state.

"Corruption, for example, which is endemic in many parts of the world is largely unknown here."

Are you delusional?

I'm speaking about the daily corruption which exists in so many places, where you need to pay a bribe to get anything done, where all politicians have big, foreign bank accounts, where the police and courts will look the other way for a bribe, where employees loot everything not tied down if they aren't being watched. Are you saying that exists in Canada?

"Violence at sporting events in the way we see in much of the world, including Europe, is simply not done, other than the occasional drunk."

You must not live in Vancouver or watch Canadian hockey.

Do you have any idea the kind of violence which generally accompanies soccer games throughout the world? Vancouver's so-called riot was about a few broken windows and maybe half a dozen fights. That's a pretty easy day in much of the world, where large steel fences separate players from fans to keep the former from being attacked, where big nets are held overhead to keep people from throwing bottles and bricks. Sports violence is an everyday occurrence elsewhere.

[G Huxley]

" I'm speaking about the daily corruption which exists in so many places, where you need to pay a bribe to get anything done, where all politicians have big, foreign bank accounts, where the police and courts will look the other way for a bribe, where employees loot everything not tied down if they aren't being watched. Are you saying that exists in Canada?"

Bribes happen all the time in Canada. Yes.

[Argus]

Do you take issue with the way Italians or Greeks hold on to their heritage?

How much I take issue with a people holding onto their foreign values (not heritage, but values and behaviour) will be fairly closely related to how wide a variance there is between that foreign culture and my own. I think you will agree that the variance is considerably lower between Canada and Europe than Canada and the Middle East.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Argus

[Argus]

" I'm speaking about the daily corruption which exists in so many places, where you need to pay a bribe to get anything done, where all politicians have big, foreign bank accounts, where the police and courts will look the other way for a bribe, where employees loot everything not tied down if they aren't being watched. Are you saying that exists in Canada?"

Bribes happen all the time in Canada. Yes.

No, they do not.

[G Huxley]

If you don't think there is bribery in Canada you are incredibly naive. There was just a conflicts commissioner investigation into what may be a form of bribery in BC, but it like the RCI investigation the conflicts commissioner decided was not criminal.

Think for yourself.

Edited May 11, 2016 by G Huxley

[Argus]

I don't deny there is a unique culture and value system in Canada.

Then if you think it's a good one you should want it protected, and not washed away by bringing in so many newcomers, so fast, that their culture and values become Canada's culture and values.

[G Huxley]

I actually agree with you on that one Argus.

[BC_chick]

Then if you think it's a good one you should want it protected, and not washed away by bringing in so many newcomers, so fast, that their culture and values become Canada's culture and values.

Can you please give an example of the bolded part above? I know niqabs and turbans in place of helmets are a thorny issue (for the record I'm against both), but I don't exactly see us moving toward a niqab society or turban wearers.

How exactly are their values 'becoming' ours?

[Argus]

Can you please give an example of the bolded part above? I know niqabs and turbans in place of helmets are a thorny issue (for the record I'm against both), but I don't exactly see us moving toward a niqab society or turban wearers.

How exactly are their values 'becoming' ours?

I worry about what is to come, not what has come. It's pointless to complain about what is already here.

But have you looked at an urban school lately? In some of them foreign born kids outnumber Canadian born, sometimes by a large margin. Schools were always one of the great equalizers. If you came from Ukraine or Italy or Greece, you got into a Canadian school and you learned to be like the Canadian kids. How does that happen when there are almost no Canadian kids? What culture do you take when you don't know really any Canadians who were born and grew up here with the existing culture?

You say you don't see us moving towards a niqab society? The use among Muslim women of head coverings has gone up 10% in the last ten years as Muslims become more conservative. The number of Muslims is doubling in size every ten years. What influence will this highly conservative, highly religious community have on Canada's culture, media and politics over the coming few decades?

1971 33,430 0.1% of population

1981 98,165 0.3%

1991 253,265 0.9%

2001 579,600 1.8%

2011 1,054,945 3.2%

2021 2.100,000 6.5% projected

2031 4.5,000,000 13% projected

[scribblet]

Argus is right, all you have to do is read about what is happening in Britain... there's an article here worth reading, he was fired for his views but he got it right.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2014/07/the-bradford-head-teacher-who-got-it-right-on-islam-and-education/

[Argus]

Argus is right, all you have to do is read about what is happening in Britain... there's an article here worth reading, he was fired for his views but he got it right.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2014/07/the-bradford-head-teacher-who-got-it-right-on-islam-and-education/

The part which is of particular interest, I thought, was his saying that Muslims (and some others)who do not primarily identify as British, can set themselves up as apart from the common culture and values and beliefs and social understandings the rest of us take for granted. And thus comes the question of what is the national identify, and how the social order is developed.