.

[Guest]

I didn't say it shouldn't be open to everyone. Anyone can criticize. We were discussing how there is a difference, I thought. I never said anyone shouldn't do anything. I just said it's different and gave examples of how and explained why.

This is what happens when you try to argue when you should be working. My mistake again. Sorry...

[kimmy]

If you are going to create teams and call one of them "Team Islam" would it not be fair to call the opposing one "Team Islamophobia"?

Personally, I do not believe in grouping people according to their views on one single issue. There are nuances to nationalism, xenophobia, racism, prejudice and patriotism that should differentiate the extent of their thinking, degree of misunderstanding and/or strength of conviction.

Well that's kind of what I was getting at. "Islamophobia" has been thrown around with such abandon of late. And now throwing "nationalists" at the people who aren't all "sunny ways" on the issue of Muslim immigration. At least he didn't say "white nationalists"... I guess that's something. If people are going to engage like that, then maybe they should expect to get "Team Islam" in return.

-k

[kimmy]

You see, while she's criticizing ISIS and the horrors that you speak of, you are talking about criticizing her religion and culture. That's the difference that some people seem to be missing. She's not condemning her culture or religion at all. For all we know she's very religious and perhaps even proud of her culture. Living there and being a part of it, she clearly knows that West African Muslims have a different culture from Indonesian ones who have a different culture from Arab Peninsula ones. She recognizes that there are political forces competing within the same countries and communities. We see that in the interview even as she butts heads with the interviewer.

I've noticed that when this criticism comes from "the inside" those offering it are often accused of being traitors-- as this lady is in this interview.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali has been accused of self-promotion... that she's just criticizing Islam to advance her own career and raise her profile. Tarek Fatah is another example... he's been accused of being an Uncle Tom, of pandering to "the west" when he speaks out against conservative Islam.

I get your point... but it seems that even when the criticism comes within the community it's still convenient for apologists to dismiss it away by questioning the motive rather than confront the substance of it.

-k

[Smoke]

There is this myth that Muslims don't criticize ISIS or radicalism enough or that it's seldom that it happens. But the opposite is the truth.

Take these Muslims in London who speak out against the radical Muslims, who are actually afraid to go close to mosques, where other Muslims would criticize them

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6R20IslSfk

Thanks for making the point that we should be wary, as some muslims are, of their culture.

[Smoke]

If you are going to create teams and call one of them "Team Islam" would it not be fair to call the opposing one "Team Islamophobia"?

Personally, I do not believe in grouping people according to their views on one single issue. There are nuances to nationalism, xenophobia, racism, prejudice and patriotism that should differentiate the extent of their thinking, degree of misunderstanding and/or strength of conviction.

I've seen you lump all conservatives before. In fact you lump all who have concerns about Islam as xenophobes, so, there goes your theory.

[Hudson Jones]

Thanks for making the point that we should be wary, as some muslims are, of their culture.

That's not the point that was made, since it's not true. These are select individuals and a small minority of Muslims. I hope you see the point that not all Muslims are the same. That it's stupid to see Muslims as a caricature. An extremist who screams allah-akbar.

I also hope you understand that there are similar extremists and wackos in other religions like Christianity and Judaism, who like to interpret their religions in various ways.

[eyeball]

I've noticed that when this criticism comes from "the inside" those offering it are often accused of being traitors--

-k

I've been noticing that for about 15 years now.

[Rue]

If you are going to create teams and call one of them "Team Islam" would it not be fair to call the opposing one "Team Islamophobia"?

Personally, I do not believe in grouping people according to their views on one single issue. There are nuances to nationalism, xenophobia, racism, prejudice and patriotism that should differentiate the extent of their thinking, degree of misunderstanding and/or strength of conviction.

Now let's see. So now according to Big Guy, I should create Team Jewaphobia and according to Big Guy who has continually demonstrated in his posts he groups people according their views on Israel should be used as a role model when debating-I mean of course Big Guy has ever come on this forum and labelled Jews, Zionists, Israelis or any one who support's Israel's right to exist based on the one single view they believe Jews should have a country. Lol, not Bug Guy.

As well given his lecture on nuances I mean yes, sure, let's use him as a role model on how to express nuances on Zionism, anti-Semitism, prejudice against Jews using the pretext of criticizing Israel for existing as a tool to express hatred for Jews. Yes he's full of nuances.

Got. Big Guy is a role model of how we all should discuss and present debate on this forum.

Team Jewaphobia. Right. Big Guy posing as the model of debate for all to follow.

Got it.

TeamJewaphobia v. TeamIslamophobia. Right.

The labels, just keep coming.

I am on TeamVomit. Our Jerseys of course are a yellowish brown green mix.

Edited February 19, 2016 by Rue

[Charles Anthony]

Guys,

Please avoid thread drift.

[kimmy]

That's not the point that was made, since it's not true. These are select individuals and a small minority of Muslims. I hope you see the point that not all Muslims are the same. That it's stupid to see Muslims as a caricature. An extremist who screams allah-akbar.

I also hope you understand that there are similar extremists and wackos in other religions like Christianity and Judaism, who like to interpret their religions in various ways.

Ms Shams was certainly not discussing a small minority of Saudis, she was discussing the country at large. The practices and policies she was condemning aren't the views of a small group of zealots, they're the law of the land. She's renouncing her citizenship there because, in not so many words, that country sucks.

-k