ReeferMadness Posted October 5, 2015 Report Posted October 5, 2015 Edited: 1 - Green 1 - BQ 112 - CPC 112 - LPC 112 - NDP That'd be awesome. If by "awesome", you mean a sh*t storm, I agree. Under this scenario (or in the case of a weak CPC minority), the CPC would make a show of trying to govern long enough (or delay governing long enough) that by time the government fell, they would be looking for a new election. In the mean time, they would pull every wedge issue trick they could to increase their vote. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
PIK Posted October 5, 2015 Report Posted October 5, 2015 And lets remember how many people will go to the polls. A lot of young girls want trudeau, but how many will actually vote. All us old timers will be out voting for harper. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
The_Squid Posted October 5, 2015 Report Posted October 5, 2015 If by "awesome", you mean a sh*t storm, I agree. Under this scenario (or in the case of a weak CPC minority), the CPC would make a show of trying to govern long enough (or delay governing long enough) that by time the government fell, they would be looking for a new election. In the mean time, they would pull every wedge issue trick they could to increase their vote. Naww... that result would guarantee an NDP/Green coalition... or a Liberal/Green coalition.... lol That would be some good stuff! Of course, it may also force a NDP/LIB coalition very quickly... with a GRN referee? lol Quote
ToadBrother Posted October 5, 2015 Report Posted October 5, 2015 And lets remember how many people will go to the polls. A lot of young girls want trudeau, but how many will actually vote. All us old timers will be out voting for harper. The fact that you still are trying to foist "Trudeau the Handsome Airhead" line suggests just how out of touch the hard line Tories are. Quote
BC_chick Posted October 5, 2015 Report Posted October 5, 2015 LOL Shit! I didn't even read your post before I posted mine... Great minds think alike!! Too funny. Right after mine too. Quote It's kind of the worst thing that any humans could be doing at this time in human history. Other than that, it's fine." Bill Nye on Alberta Oil Sands
ReeferMadness Posted October 5, 2015 Report Posted October 5, 2015 Naww... that result would guarantee an NDP/Green coalition... or a Liberal/Green coalition.... lol That would be some good stuff! Of course, it may also force a NDP/LIB coalition very quickly... with a GRN referee? lol That's not necessarily (or even probably) true. Convention has it that the former government gets the first crack at forming a coalition. Harper has agreed that the party with the most seats should be government but under a tie, I expect that he would go to the GG (who he appointed) and ask to be allowed to govern. Once that happens, he can delay convening parliament for months and he could throw something into the throne speech to entice one of the other two parties to vote with him. As long as the government lasted a decent amount of time (say six months), it's more likely that the GG would call a new election than hand the government over to the NDP/LIBs. And if the economy improved in the meantime, the Conservatives would want a new election. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
The_Squid Posted October 5, 2015 Report Posted October 5, 2015 The fact that you still are trying to foist "Trudeau the Handsome Airhead" line suggests just how out of touch the hard line Tories are. Hidden in his partisan rhetorical silliness, he does have a point... young people who don't vote get the government that they deserve... young people could swing an election any way they want (assuming they vote as a block for the most part) if they only voted... Quote
The_Squid Posted October 5, 2015 Report Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) That's not necessarily (or even probably) true. Convention has it that the former government gets the first crack at forming a coalition. Harper has agreed that the party with the most seats should be government but under a tie, I expect that he would go to the GG (who he appointed) and ask to be allowed to govern. Once that happens, he can delay convening parliament for months and he could throw something into the throne speech to entice one of the other two parties to vote with him. As long as the government lasted a decent amount of time (say six months), it's more likely that the GG would call a new election than hand the government over to the NDP/LIBs. And if the economy improved in the meantime, the Conservatives would want a new election. Maybe... but he wouldn't be supported by parliament and a coalition would be ready to step in. The same goes if he wins by a small number of seats... he will ask to govern, it will be granted and then he will be brought down. A 3-way tie would just make his governing even more precarious... and interesting! Edited October 5, 2015 by The_Squid Quote
BC_chick Posted October 5, 2015 Report Posted October 5, 2015 If by "awesome", you mean a sh*t storm, I agree. Under this scenario (or in the case of a weak CPC minority), the CPC would make a show of trying to govern long enough (or delay governing long enough) that by time the government fell, they would be looking for a new election. In the mean time, they would pull every wedge issue trick they could to increase their vote. No need to be a downer about this, the glass is half full! It would be so historical, we'd all be high-fiving in the streets. NDP, CPC and LPC alike. Reefermadness for all! Quote It's kind of the worst thing that any humans could be doing at this time in human history. Other than that, it's fine." Bill Nye on Alberta Oil Sands
BC_chick Posted October 5, 2015 Report Posted October 5, 2015 Maybe... but he wouldn't be supported by parliament and a coalition would be ready to step in. The same goes if he wins by a small number of seats... he will ask to govern, it will be granted and then he will be brought down. A 3-way tie would just make his governing even more precarious... and interesting! You really think a coalition would be possible between LPC and NDP? Their policies are so different. Quote It's kind of the worst thing that any humans could be doing at this time in human history. Other than that, it's fine." Bill Nye on Alberta Oil Sands
The_Squid Posted October 5, 2015 Report Posted October 5, 2015 You really think a coalition would be possible between LPC and NDP? Their policies are so different. If Harper wins, then that is what the two parties will have to do to oust him. It's the only way, unless they want to let him govern for a year or two and risk another election. And being to blame for another election may put you into 3rd place again... and give Harper another majority. I hope they can see the forest for the trees... better to have a coalition than a Harper government gained through vote-splitting again. Quote
ToadBrother Posted October 5, 2015 Report Posted October 5, 2015 That's not necessarily (or even probably) true. Convention has it that the former government gets the first crack at forming a coalition. Harper has agreed that the party with the most seats should be government but under a tie, I expect that he would go to the GG (who he appointed) and ask to be allowed to govern. Once that happens, he can delay convening parliament for months and he could throw something into the throne speech to entice one of the other two parties to vote with him. As long as the government lasted a decent amount of time (say six months), it's more likely that the GG would call a new election than hand the government over to the NDP/LIBs. And if the economy improved in the meantime, the Conservatives would want a new election. In technical terms, the PM does not need to go to the Governor General to request to continue to govern. He is within his right to continue governing so long as he enjoys the confidence of Parliament. It is possible that the Governor General might warn the Prime Minister that he doesn't see it as a strong likelihood that he will be able to maintain the confidence of Parliament, and advise the Prime Minister to resign; much as Lord Byng advised Mackenzie King that he didn't see the Prime Minister being able to form a stable government after the Liberals were reduced to a minority. Further to that, like Lord Byng, the current Governor General could, if the PM insists upon trying to form a government in such a situation, impose limitations on the PM's use of prerogatives. The King-Byng Affair made it clear that the Governor General could in fact place restrictions on a PM's right to request a dissolution. Further to that, I think the limitations that the Governor General imposed on the Stephen Harper in acceding to his request for prorogation would suggest that the Governor General could also impose a similar limitation on the use of prorogation to evade a confidence vote. If there were indeed a tie between the Conservatives and the NDP or Liberals, then I think a similar set of limitations could be imposed on Stephen Harper should he insist upon attempting to form a government. Quote
ToadBrother Posted October 5, 2015 Report Posted October 5, 2015 You really think a coalition would be possible between LPC and NDP? Their policies are so different. But the policies are not really that different, and really, if we have a hung parliament (which I think is the strongest possibility), the voters have really sent the message that none of their platforms are all that acceptable. It's my view that if the electorate wants a platform to be executed to the letter, then vote in a majority government. Otherwise, you get whatever Parliament can manage to pass. Quote
angrypenguin Posted October 5, 2015 Report Posted October 5, 2015 You're all wrong. The Green will get a majority and crush all of us. Quote My views are my own and not those of my employer.
ReeferMadness Posted October 5, 2015 Report Posted October 5, 2015 In technical terms, the PM does not need to go to the Governor General to request to continue to govern. He is within his right to continue governing so long as he enjoys the confidence of Parliament. It is possible that the Governor General might warn the Prime Minister that he doesn't see it as a strong likelihood that he will be able to maintain the confidence of Parliament, and advise the Prime Minister to resign; much as Lord Byng advised Mackenzie King that he didn't see the Prime Minister being able to form a stable government after the Liberals were reduced to a minority. Further to that, like Lord Byng, the current Governor General could, if the PM insists upon trying to form a government in such a situation, impose limitations on the PM's use of prerogatives. The King-Byng Affair made it clear that the Governor General could in fact place restrictions on a PM's right to request a dissolution. Further to that, I think the limitations that the Governor General imposed on the Stephen Harper in acceding to his request for prorogation would suggest that the Governor General could also impose a similar limitation on the use of prorogation to evade a confidence vote. If there were indeed a tie between the Conservatives and the NDP or Liberals, then I think a similar set of limitations could be imposed on Stephen Harper should he insist upon attempting to form a government. That's all wonderful in theory. In practise, recall what happened in 2008-09. The Conservatives used parliamentary trickery, dirty tricks and a misinformation campaign that convinced poorly informed and gullible Canadians that a coup d'etat was in process to continue governing. This time they have a GG they have appointed. Let's just say you have much more confidence in the system than I do. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ToadBrother Posted October 5, 2015 Report Posted October 5, 2015 That's all wonderful in theory. In practise, recall what happened in 2008-09. The Conservatives used parliamentary trickery, dirty tricks and a misinformation campaign that convinced poorly informed and gullible Canadians that a coup d'etat was in process to continue governing. This time they have a GG they have appointed. Let's just say you have much more confidence in the system than I do. The point of my post is that if Stephen Harper insists that he can continue to govern, even where his plurality is nominal or there is even a tie, it is with the Governor General's rights to not only warn the Prime Minister that his government may be untenable, but to make it clear the Governor General will not be there to save his government from a loss of confidence. Quote
cybercoma Posted October 5, 2015 Author Report Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) That's all wonderful in theory. In practise, recall what happened in 2008-09. The Conservatives used parliamentary trickery, dirty tricks and a misinformation campaign that convinced poorly informed and gullible Canadians that a coup d'etat was in process to continue governing. This time they have a GG they have appointed. Let's just say you have much more confidence in the system than I do. If the opposition are intent on voting non-confidence at the throne speech, then the Governor General would be foolish to call another election right away. If the government loses a confidence motion, the Governor General cannot allow the Prime Minister to continue to govern. Edit: If the GG did, the government would essentially be a dictatorship as it would be ruling without the support of the democratically elected representatives of the people. Edited October 5, 2015 by cybercoma Quote
ReeferMadness Posted October 5, 2015 Report Posted October 5, 2015 You really think a coalition would be possible between LPC and NDP? Their policies are so different. I don't think their policies are really that different - they could find middle ground if they wanted. The real problem is that they spent the campaign convincing their voters they are different. After that, it becomes hard to turn around and say now we can work together. There are lots of right wing Liberals who think the NDP are socialists and left wing NDP who consider the Liberals not much different from the CPC. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ReeferMadness Posted October 5, 2015 Report Posted October 5, 2015 If the opposition are intent on voting non-confidence at the throne speech, then the Governor General would be foolish to call another election right away. If the government loses a confidence motion, the Governor General cannot allow the Prime Minister to continue to govern. True. But again, what happened in 2008? Harper knew he would lose the confidence motion so he delayed until the time was better. Then he misled the public to make the other parties back down. The system allows lots of room for trickery and the Conservatives will use every trick they can. The only difference this time is that the Conservatives are likely to have a weaker minority - so perhaps the opposition will be a bit braver. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ToadBrother Posted October 5, 2015 Report Posted October 5, 2015 True. But again, what happened in 2008? Harper knew he would lose the confidence motion so he delayed until the time was better. Then he misled the public to make the other parties back down. The system allows lots of room for trickery and the Conservatives will use every trick they can. The only difference this time is that the Conservatives are likely to have a weaker minority - so perhaps the opposition will be a bit braver. The Coalition broke apart largely because the Liberals revolted against it. This was in no small part due to the fact that they had a lame duck leader who was going to be made PM. The conditions are entirely different. Even if the GG doesn't impose conditions on the PM, the Tories will not survive a confidence vote, even after the New Year, and almost certainly if the opposition parties can show a united front and the intent to form a stable government (whether that's a coalition or some form of confidence and supply agreement), the Governor General will almost certainly ask one of them to form a government. I think even the Tories understand that, save for the most extreme partisans. Quote
angrypenguin Posted October 5, 2015 Report Posted October 5, 2015 True. But again, what happened in 2008? Harper knew he would lose the confidence motion so he delayed until the time was better. Then he misled the public to make the other parties back down. The system allows lots of room for trickery and the Conservatives will use every trick they can. The only difference this time is that the Conservatives are likely to have a weaker minority - so perhaps the opposition will be a bit braver. Yeah, the CPC are the ONLY ones who would use every trick they can. What a joke. You Liberals all paint your parties as being so clean and innocent, and yet the Liberals are responsible for one of the biggest scandals in the history of Canada. Give me a break. Quote My views are my own and not those of my employer.
ReeferMadness Posted October 5, 2015 Report Posted October 5, 2015 The Coalition broke apart largely because the Liberals revolted against it. This was in no small part due to the fact that they had a lame duck leader who was going to be made PM. The conditions are entirely different. Even if the GG doesn't impose conditions on the PM, the Tories will not survive a confidence vote, even after the New Year, and almost certainly if the opposition parties can show a united front and the intent to form a stable government (whether that's a coalition or some form of confidence and supply agreement), the Governor General will almost certainly ask one of them to form a government. I think even the Tories understand that, save for the most extreme partisans. The Liberals chickened out because public opinion was massively opposed to the coalition. And that was largely because the Conservatives openly lied to a gullible and uninformed public. It was amazing to see multiple scholars come out and try to explain to the public that a coalition is perfectly valid in our form of government - and be ignored. No wonder the Conservatives felt some comfortable openly dismissing science. They saw how easy it was to defeat expert opinion with an echo chamber comprised of their sheep. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
The_Squid Posted October 5, 2015 Report Posted October 5, 2015 The Coalition broke apart largely because the Liberals revolted against it. This was in no small part due to the fact that they had a lame duck leader who was going to be made PM. The conditions are entirely different. Even if the GG doesn't impose conditions on the PM, the Tories will not survive a confidence vote, even after the New Year, and almost certainly if the opposition parties can show a united front and the intent to form a stable government (whether that's a coalition or some form of confidence and supply agreement), the Governor General will almost certainly ask one of them to form a government. I think even the Tories understand that, save for the most extreme partisans. I don't disagree... but where you're wrong is in that the country can't be governed with a wink and a nod... in other words, there would need to be a formal coalition if the other parties didn't want the CPC in power with a minority, otherwise it's election time again. I can't see how the GG could let a party govern with fewer seats with just a informal agreement. Quote
ReeferMadness Posted October 5, 2015 Report Posted October 5, 2015 Yeah, the CPC are the ONLY ones who would use every trick they can. What a joke. You Liberals all paint your parties as being so clean and innocent, and yet the Liberals are responsible for one of the biggest scandals in the history of Canada. Give me a break.Oh, jeez. Here we go again. The CPC campaigned on accountability. Look it up because if you understand it you must be the only Conservative who does. Because if there is one thing that all of you guys do, it's blame your party's utter lack of ethical behavior on someone else. The CPC's lied to the people about how our system works to cling to power. It's disgraceful. Own it. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
angrypenguin Posted October 5, 2015 Report Posted October 5, 2015 Oh, jeez. Here we go again. The CPC campaigned on accountability. Look it up because if you understand it you must be the only Conservative who does. Because if there is one thing that all of you guys do, it's blame your party's utter lack of ethical behavior on someone else. The CPC's lied to the people about how our system works to cling to power. It's disgraceful. Own it. Far more accountable than the Liberal track record. I can pick on so much crap that the Liberals campaigned on where they backtracked .Own it. Quote My views are my own and not those of my employer.
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