The NDP and the new international trade agreement

[nerve]

Canada doesn't need it, if they want Canadian resources they will pay for them. The real problem here is that its a secret negotiation, no treaty negotiations should be "secret". This is simply just saying people wouldn't be ok if we let them know what we wanted.... some populations are getting screwed by this, that should be evident.

BOO to backroom negotiations, this is bad government, if you can't tell the public what you are going to do before you agree to do it, it is bad policy.

Its bad for government.

I am all for free trade but why are there conditions attached. You open up we open up. .it should be that simple. These hours and hours of negotiations and caveats are just a way of maneuvering around the stupidity of specific nations.

This BS will bring down the weaker nations, Canada is one of them. Dominant nations are only empowered by free trade.Canada is not dominant so it will be a loser. Oh but the big corps will win so it is good for the conservatives who want a corpororatist state ie. fascist domination of the government. It is just more conservative partisan fuckery.

Edited October 4, 2015 by nerve

[ReeferMadness]

According to NDP/Greens:

We need to send more aid to foreigners. If you disagree you are evil and xenophobic.

We need to allow more foreigners to enter Canada as immigrants/refugees. If you disagree you are evil and xenophobic.

But trading with foreigners? Can't allow that!

Wow. Just argue with yourself and use that to illustrate how dumb the NDP/Greens are.

I guess that's one way to win a debate.

[nerve]

My point was that that article you mentioned did not tell me anything that the US government doesn't want to tell me. (e.g. the stuff that would take away from their negotiating power). So why spend the money to put forward such a document when one knows 99.9% of the American public would not go through it. It's a waste of taxpayer money.

My stance is...(directed to the government, not you) go negotiate, tell me what you end up getting, and then I'll vote on it. It's the most efficient way to spend taxpayer money, IMHO.

Because congress and the global elites are that other 0.01% and they have the vote.

[ReeferMadness]

Supply management inflates the price of basic food and disproportionately harms poor people.

Way to go NDP.

The milk I drink if free of growth hormones and antibiotics. Will Harper assure me this won't change as a result of this dumbass deal?

These free trade deals are great for corporations. Whether anything trickles through to people over the long haul is debatable.

[nerve]

The milk I drink if free of growth hormones and antibiotics. Will Harper assure me this won't change as a result of this dumbass deal?

These free trade deals are great for corporations. Whether anything trickles through to people over the long haul is debatable.

Do you also eat organically grown vegetables? Apparently pesticides are even worse than bovine growth hormone.

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/2006/12.07/11-dairy.html

"One study compared diet and cancer rates in 42 counties. It showed that milk and cheese consumption are strongly correlated to the incidence of testicular cancer among men ages 20 to 39."

"One compared levels of hormones and growth factors in American milk (whole, whole organic, skim milk, and UHT - ultra-high temperature - milk) to milk from Mongolia. Levels were very low in both American skim and in Mongolian milk.

Another pilot study looked at third-graders in Mongolia. After a month, the hormone levels jumped among the children fed commercial U.S. milk."

"BOVINE GROWTH HORMONE is Banned in the European Union and Around the World

Originally approved by many countries shortly after its release, rBGH has since been banned by the European Union, Canada, Australia, Japan, New Zealand and Israel. ^[4] Most of these bans went into effect in 2000, some earlier. It didn’t take their scientists long to figure out this stuff isn’t quite right." http://www.globalhealingcenter.com/natural-health/8-shocking-facts-bovine-growth-hormone/

Obviously if the Israelites don't like it, the conservatives can't either.

"Dr. Samuel Epstein exposed the dangers of rBGH in his book What’s in your Milk?" (marginal note: The surname Epstein is one of the oldest Jewish family names in the Slavic countries.)

So it simply cannot happen.

Edited October 4, 2015 by nerve

[-1=e^ipi]

are just a way of maneuvering around the stupidity of specific nations.

Like Canada and its supply management system.

[nerve]

Do you also eat organically grown vegetables? Apparently pesticides are even worse than bovine growth hormone.

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/2006/12.07/11-dairy.html

"One study compared diet and cancer rates in 42 counties. It showed that milk and cheese consumption are strongly correlated to the incidence of testicular cancer among men ages 20 to 39."

"One compared levels of hormones and growth factors in American milk (whole, whole organic, skim milk, and UHT - ultra-high temperature - milk) to milk from Mongolia. Levels were very low in both American skim and in Mongolian milk.

Another pilot study looked at third-graders in Mongolia. After a month, the hormone levels jumped among the children fed commercial U.S. milk."

"BOVINE GROWTH HORMONE is Banned in the European Union and Around the World

Originally approved by many countries shortly after its release, rBGH has since been banned by the European Union, Canada, Australia, Japan, New Zealand and Israel. ^[4] Most of these bans went into effect in 2000, some earlier. It didn’t take their scientists long to figure out this stuff isn’t quite right." http://www.globalhealingcenter.com/natural-health/8-shocking-facts-bovine-growth-hormone/

Obviously if the Israelites don't like it, the conservatives can't either.

"Dr. Samuel Epstein exposed the dangers of rBGH in his book What’s in your Milk?" (marginal note: The surname Epstein is one of the oldest Jewish family names in the Slavic countries.)

So it simply cannot happen.

Supply management is a little nonsensical. It is like the wheat board. Let people decide for themselves. This government intrusion on how much people can produce and sell is not good government. Likewise saying what we can eat or not is also nonsense. Its none of their business, slap the this will give you cancer warning on it and move on, for that matter I haven't seen a single car that explains you will go to hell if you drive this. Its just politics not good government. Shame! Get rid of non emergency medicare while you are at it, and introduce a national health insurance that the rich pay for for themselves, with option to buy private insurance. Only the poor should have poverty care, by consent. This forced medicine is totally medically unethical, and it is shameful we have medical political prisoners in Canada. Absolutely Shameful and contrary to the Nuremberg Principles on Patient Rights.

Edited October 4, 2015 by nerve

[angrypenguin]

Because congress and the global elites are that other 0.01% and they have the vote.

You do know how voting works right?

[Topaz]

When Canada is in an election, should agreements like this be stopped until after the election? I think its totally unfair to the party that wins, the agreement could make their job harder or can the new government cancel the agreement?

[ToadBrother]

When Canada is in an election, should agreements like this be stopped until after the election? I think its totally unfair to the party that wins, the agreement could make their job harder or can the new government cancel the agreement?

It's a difficult question. The Caretaker Convention usually would restrict a government's ability to negotiate treaties, or more to the point to ratify them (ratification is a Royal Prerogative). However, the convention also recognizes there may be situations of great urgency where a government that is in a caretaker situation may have to use those prerogatives.

The TPP negotiations are very time sensitive, and it's likely a deal will be struck before the election, so if Canada wishes to be part of the deal, the Government cannot wait until after October 19th.

While no one is admitting it, it has been suggested that the Tories are quietly keeping the Opposition abreast of negotiations. In this way, whoever is the Government after October 19th will at least have knowledge of the various negotiating positions. Not perfect, but under the circumstances the best that can be done.

[Smallc]

It's also something that was already happening before the election campaign started. It could be argued that by continuing negotiations, the government is simply fulfilling its role as caretaker.

[Wilber]

Like Canada and its supply management system.

How would you feel about your taxes going into subsidies to keep your agriculture competitive with all the non supply management countries who do subsidize their agriculture? In 2010, US, $20 billion, EU, 39 billion Euros, in direct subsidies. More in the form of other assistance. Supply management has its drawbacks but government subsidies aren't one of them. They are user pay. If you don't use dairy products, they don't cost you anything. If you pay taxes and they were subsidized, you would pay whether you use them or not.

New Zealand and the US are swimming in milk that they can't get rid of right now. They had a big boom with China, now it is bust and they are looking at Canada as another place to get rid of it.

[Michael Hardner]

New Zealand and the US are swimming in milk that they can't get rid of right now. They had a big boom with China, now it is bust and they are looking at Canada as another place to get rid of it.

That's a pretty sober assessment - thanks. If I get this right, then, people who buy dairy products will get a price cut, dairy farmers will be impacted, and Canada will gain access to markets in other areas.

[angrypenguin]

How would you feel about your taxes going into subsidies to keep your agriculture competitive with all the non supply management countries who do subsidize their agriculture? In 2010, US, $20 billion, EU, 39 billion Euros, in direct subsidies. More in the form of other assistance. Supply management has its drawbacks but government subsidies aren't one of them. They are user pay. If you don't use dairy products, they don't cost you anything. If you pay taxes and they were subsidized, you would pay whether you use them or not.

New Zealand and the US are swimming in milk that they can't get rid of right now. They had a big boom with China, now it is bust and they are looking at Canada as another place to get rid of it.

Another way to put this, for those that are against TPP.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Michael Hardner
image removed

[Wilber]

Another way to put this, for those that are against TPP.

And some don't understand that there are downsides to everything. Canadian farmers are some of the least affected by this.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-10/milk-surplus-dairy-farmers-at-the-barricades

Edited October 4, 2015 by Michael Hardner
image removed

[angrypenguin]

And some don't understand that there are downsides to everything. None of this is happening in Canada.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-10/milk-surplus-dairy-farmers-at-the-barricades

There are downsides in everything, but the upsides far exceed the downsides.

[Michael Hardner]

The major source of political friction at the moment seems to be over a thousand or so dairy farmers.

Not disagreeing with your post - but do you have a real number to cite ?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/canada-election-2015-trans-pacific-partnership-dairy-1.3245455

The dairy industry is apparently so complacent, according to that article, that one of these farmers isn't even AWARE that his livelihood and way of life is under severe thread:

On a cool but sunny Saturday in Ste-Anne-des-Plaines, Que., dairy farmer Réal Gauthier awoke to his morning chores and was promptly sideswiped by the news of the potential dairy concessions.

"I am in the stable and I [am feeding] the cow, and the phone rings, and people question me, 'Do you look about the news of CBC?'" Gauthier said.

Really hard to believe.

[Michael Hardner]

But having 12000 farmers hold the whole country hostage is foolish.

Argus' number is 1000. Who has the number ?

[Michael Hardner]

Whether anything trickles through to people over the long haul is debatable.

Actually, the OP described economists talking about how this will help Canada.

I do think it would help us overall, while also severely threatening some individuals' way of life.

Do we think that any politician would have the bad sense to stand up and say "I'm throwing farmers under the bus to save grocery dollars for millions of Canadians ?"

Unfortunately the economy is still a place where you can have your live devastated if you choose to take risks such as entering into a business. Our public discussions don't acknowledge that because they are played to a mass audience and not a 'public' that can discern between economic interests and emotional interests.

[Michael Hardner]

While no one is admitting it, it has been suggested that the Tories are quietly keeping the Opposition abreast of negotiations. In this way, whoever is the Government after October 19th will at least have knowledge of the various negotiating positions. Not perfect, but under the circumstances the best that can be done.

So... the NDP and Liberals are conducting meetings "in secret" then ?

This is what I'm saying about these deals... and it's hypocritical for parties to try to make points about 'secret negotiations' when none of them trust "the" public.

The problem is that it's not "the" public, it's a mass audience that we're looking to vote to support/reject these complicated deals, and that is just a disconnect. The political system is not designed to manage review and passage of these types of arrangements by voting citizens.

[angrypenguin]

Actually, the OP described economists talking about how this will help Canada.

I do think it would help us overall, while also severely threatening some individuals' way of life.

Do we think that any politician would have the bad sense to stand up and say "I'm throwing farmers under the bus to save grocery dollars for millions of Canadians ?"

Unfortunately the economy is still a place where you can have your live devastated if you choose to take risks such as entering into a business. Our public discussions don't acknowledge that because they are played to a mass audience and not a 'public' that can discern between economic interests and emotional interests.

Harper has already said he'll compensate the dairy farmers, just like he promised to and then delivered compensation to the Atlantic fisheries following a trade deal.

[Michael Hardner]

Harper has already said he'll compensate the dairy farmers, just like he promised to and then delivered compensation to the Atlantic fisheries following a trade deal.

Thanks AP. Do you have a cite ?

I'm learning a lot from this thread.

[angrypenguin]

Thanks AP. Do you have a cite ?

I'm learning a lot from this thread.

For sure, take a look at the video. It's only 1 minute 14 seconds and it provides quite a bit of info about TPP and free trade, but it also includes what you're looking for. I was a bit off though, the story that I originally read mentioned that Harper had already delivered compensation for the fishing industry. According to him, there is a blocker provincially, but they will definitely deliver.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/harper-newfoundland-1.3255630

[ToadBrother]

For sure, take a look at the video. It's only 1 minute 14 seconds and it provides quite a bit of info about TPP and free trade, but it also includes what you're looking for. I was a bit off though, the story that I originally read mentioned that Harper had already delivered compensation for the fishing industry. According to him, there is a blocker provincially, but they will definitely deliver.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/harper-newfoundland-1.3255630

At the end of the day, it means cheaper dairy products, which will benefit far far more Canadians than it hurts. Affected farmers will get some sort of financial payout, as you and Michael Hardner state, and really they will adapt to the new pricing. It could mean some smaller farms are lost, but I'm looking at the price of beef right now, and thinking "Screw milk, raise meat stock." I have forty acres of land and a hot-to-trot son in law, and am seriously thinking of letting raise a few head of cattle in return for a cut of the profits. My brother in law is making a killing off his herd right now, and often sells the meat on the hoof.

Edited October 4, 2015 by ToadBrother

[angrypenguin]

At the end of the day, it means cheaper dairy products, which will benefit far far more Canadians than it hurts. Affected farmers will get some sort of financial payout, as you and Michael Hardner state, and really they will adapt to the new pricing. It could mean some smaller farms are lost, but I'm looking at the price of beef right now, and thinking "Screw milk, raise meat stock." I have forty acres of land and a hot-to-trot son in law, and am seriously thinking of letting raise a few head of cattle in return for a cut of the profits. My brother in law is making a killing off his herd right now, and often sells the meat on the hoof.

Precisely, and as someone who is allergic to dairy, I'm STILL for this

A country that protects certain industries is doing the equivalent of shooting one's own foot. This is a global economy.