Munk debate 2015/09/28

Argus · September 30, 2015

Well, there you are.

---SNIP---

outside our borders.

So why vote at all with that attitude?

Edited October 1, 2015 by Charles Anthony
[---SNIP---]

cybercoma · September 30, 2015

We certainly didn't hear this crying when the Liberals won with less than 50%

Since the forum didn't exist then, I don't understand what point you're trying to make. Do you think people, like me, who've criticized FPTP care whether it's a Conservative or Liberal in charge? The House is not representative. That's the problem, regardless of who wins.

ToadBrother · September 30, 2015

So why vote at all with that attitude?

Because someone has to form the top tier of government.

Just because I refuse to buy into the partisan view that every election is some sort of apocalyptic choice between absolute good and absolute bad doesn't mean I don't view voting as critical. I just don't buy into the notion that there is actually a course of action that is so right that it will save us, or so wrong that we'll be devastated. But that hardly means that having a government that is accountable to the electorate isn't important.

cybercoma · September 30, 2015

In any case, it goes to show how empty the debate was, when we have pages of discussion and nobody is talking about the parties' positions on foreign policy.

ToadBrother · September 30, 2015

In any case, it goes to show how empty the debate was, when we have pages of discussion and nobody is talking about the parties' positions on foreign policy.

And the positions seem to be:

Tories - We'll talk a great game about battling the evils of Putin and ISIL, but will continue to largely starve the armed forces of the investment they need.

Liberals and NDP - We'll talk a great game about restoring Canada's peacekeeping tradition, but will continue to largely starve the armed forces of the investment they need.

In real terms, the only difference, is a few dozen bombs that get dropped on ISIL.

angrypenguin · October 1, 2015

And the positions seem to be:

Tories - We'll talk a great game about battling the evils of Putin and ISIL, but will continue to largely starve the armed forces of the investment they need.

Liberals and NDP - We'll talk a great game about restoring Canada's peacekeeping tradition, but will continue to largely starve the armed forces of the investment they need.

In real terms, the only difference, is a few dozen bombs that get dropped on ISIL.

Yep. So drop those bombs!!

ToadBrother · October 1, 2015

Yep. So drop those bombs!!

I don't disagree with you, but I don't think anyone can reasonably pretend that our contribution to the war on ISIS is any more than a token contribution.

angrypenguin · October 1, 2015

I don't disagree with you, but I don't think anyone can reasonably pretend that our contribution to the war on ISIS is any more than a token contribution.

Oh yeah, definitely agreed. It's a half ***ed response.

SpankyMcFarland · October 1, 2015

Honestly - that's really a valid view and I understand it. I personally think that our government is more open and accountable than it was 15 or 20 or 30 years ago. It seems that you can't really hide much anymore......and you only need to look at Sona, Del Maestro, Duffy and Wright to know that there is more accountability.

Sona was a patsy who took the fall for others - a much more serious case IMO than Del Mastro's who refused to reach a reasonable deal. Re Duffy, the PMO had to get caught doing something wrong eventually given that it runs the country now, which is the real scandal.

One example from too many of a lack of accountability - oversight of CSIS. C-51 was a chance to put the Porter years behind us but the Conservatives blew it. An extraordinary amount of information can now be shared among various agencies and the public has no way of knowing if this will be done appropriately. Only the government will have its privacy protected.

Edited October 1, 2015 by SpankyMcFarland

angrypenguin · October 1, 2015

I just watched the debates again. Trudeau really pisses me off. Stop cutting people off you petulant child.

ToadBrother · October 1, 2015

I just watched the debates again. Trudeau really pisses me off. Stop cutting people off you petulant child.

Wow, complaining about someone showboating at what has to be the biggest showboating event in an election.

Spiderfish · October 1, 2015

Please read up on how our election process works.

Please re-read my post and try to pay attention to the context.

Spiderfish · October 1, 2015

Since the forum didn't exist then, I don't understand what point you're trying to make. Do you think people, like me, who've criticized FPTP care whether it's a Conservative or Liberal in charge? The House is not representative. That's the problem, regardless of who wins.

I thought my point was pretty clear, I was simply trying to clarify that you may have misssed marcus' point. Your response of " Shady conjured up angry supporters, so why cant I" seemed a little weak.

Charles Anthony · October 1, 2015

Folks,

Stop the personal attacks. This thread is filled with childishness.

From this point onwards, anybody who tries to sneak in some trolling or who responds to trolling will take a brief vacation.

Ch. A.

Keepitsimple · October 1, 2015

Sona was a patsy who took the fall for others - a much more serious case IMO than Del Mastro's who refused to reach a reasonable deal. Re Duffy, the PMO had to get caught doing something wrong eventually given that it runs the country now, which is the real scandal.

One example from too many of a lack of accountability - oversight of CSIS. C-51 was a chance to put the Porter years behind us but the Conservatives blew it. An extraordinary amount of information can now be shared among various agencies and the public has no way of knowing if this will be done appropriately. Only the government will have its privacy protected.

That's all "inside the Ottawa bubble" stuff. I know I'm boring some - but "everyday" Canadians really don't care that much about the Ottawa bubble......that's why "gut" issues like the Niqab carry so much weight......and now that people are starting to pay attention, it's showing up in the polls.

SpankyMcFarland · October 1, 2015

That's all "inside the Ottawa bubble" stuff. I know I'm boring some - but "everyday" Canadians really don't care that much about the Ottawa bubble......that's why "gut" issues like the Niqab carry so much weight......and now that people are starting to pay attention, it's showing up in the polls.

I hope the election is not won on the niqab. That would be a very sad reflection on the maturity of the electorate.

scribblet · October 1, 2015

Is this really true? People, including Reform and Harper himself, did complain about the electoral system at that time, from what I recall. Even as a teenager, I was aware of it.

I don't recall Reform or the Alliance wanting to to change FPTP, they did want more direct democracy, such as referendums, initiatives and recall along with a triple E Senate. It's a shame that the PCs completely swallowed the Alliance as that was all lost.

capricorn · October 1, 2015

I hope the election is not won on the niqab. That would be a very sad reflection on the maturity of the electorate.

I don't believe it's strictly about the niqab issue. I think many Canadians are turned off by the Liberals and the NDP going counter to the stated wishes of the majority of Canadians who do want the niqab removed when the oath of citizenship is taken. If those parties disregard what they knew full well was of concern to the majority, how would they act on other issues if they win government? No doubt, many Canadians are asking themselves that question, me included.

cybercoma · October 1, 2015

I thought my point was pretty clear, I was simply trying to clarify that you may have misssed marcus' point. Your response of " Shady conjured up angry supporters, so why cant I" seemed a little weak.

You said it was a red herring. My point is that it's not a red herring when it's specifically related to the comment Shady made. So I guess now you're admitting it was not a red herring, since you recognize they're exactly the same argument?

cybercoma · October 1, 2015

I don't believe it's strictly about the niqab issue. I think many Canadians are turned off by the Liberals and the NDP going counter to the stated wishes of the majority of Canadians who do want the niqab removed when the oath of citizenship is taken.

"I don't think it's about the niqab. It's about the niqab."

On Guard for Thee · October 1, 2015

I hope the election is not won on the niqab. That would be a very sad reflection on the maturity of the electorate.

I strongly concur with that. Harper keeps flogging the issue, especially when he's in PQ, as a way of deflecting attention from real issues. After all, we are talking about 2 women who have refused to cover for the ceremony. Not exactly earth shattering but it keeps nasty words like recession and economy off the table.

capricorn · October 1, 2015

"I don't think it's about the niqab. It's about the niqab."

I still maintain it's also about the Liberals and the NDP thumbing their noses at the demonstrated wishes of the majority of Canadians.

Smallc · October 1, 2015

Folks,

Stop the personal attacks.

Says the guy who smells like feet.

Keepitsimple · October 1, 2015

I hope the election is not won on the niqab. That would be a very sad reflection on the maturity of the electorate.

You have to understand the rawness of the general electorate. The silent majority believes in immigration - but they also strongly believe in integration. The Niqab represents the giant wart of Multi-culturalism - the ability to live almost completely separate from Canadian society and shun integration. The public at large is saying "enough is enough". They "feel" it's not right. It matters little what you or I think - that's just the way it is.

Edited October 1, 2015 by Keepitsimple

On Guard for Thee · October 1, 2015

I still maintain it's also about the Liberals and the NDP thumbing their noses at the demonstrated wishes of the majority of Canadians.

Part of the beauty of our charter is that it protects certain individual rights, regardless of which way the wind is blowing this week or next regarding majority wishes.