Argus Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 Read the comments in the Toronto Sun some time and hear what the Harper chorus sounds like. His whole campaign is based on division, riling up the minority who will vote for him, the Cowans of this world. He knows the majority don't like him. I read the chorus of harper haters in the Globe, thanks. You want to see mindless bile and rage, just glance through those. Mulcair and Trudeau practice the same politics as Harper does, appealing to this or that nich or ethnic group. It's only sinister when the Tories do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 Oh digging! You were one of the contractors hired to dig latrines!Again, more your type venue. But yes I was a contractor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpankyMcFarland Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 Which is good for exports. Really, blaming Harper for the fact the boom market is in correction phase all around the world is ludicrous. You want ludicrous? Good economic news - look what our great leader has achieved. Bad news - global markets. Now is not the time blah blah... This is the nonsense we have all had to listen to for ten years now. It's the incessant campaigning that drives me mad. EVERYTHING is about getting him re-elected indefinitely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpankyMcFarland Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 I read the chorus of harper haters in the Globe, thanks. You want to see mindless bile and rage, just glance through those. Mulcair and Trudeau practice the same politics as Harper does, appealing to this or that nich or ethnic group. It's only sinister when the Tories do it. Only a loyalist like yourself is blind to the change in Canada under Harper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keepitsimple Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 Only a loyalist like yourself is blind to the change in Canada under Harper. What's the two biggest specific changes (not generalities, perceptions, opinions or platitudes) that you've noted - the ones that concern you the most......because I know that people can validly not like his personal style. but I'm having trouble seeing how individual Canadians are worse off under Harper - even economically.....in spite of all the Global troubles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadBrother Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 What's the two biggest specific changes (not generalities, perceptions, opinions or platitudes) that you've noted - the ones that concern you the most......because I know that people can validly not like his personal style. but I'm having trouble seeing how individual Canadians are worse off under Harper - even economically.....in spite of all the Global troubles. I know one for sure. Cabinet, save for a few key Ministers (well, more like one key Minister these days) is essentially a vestigial organ. And before you claim Chretien was as bad, Sheila Copps came out nearly a month ago and stated that she could only recall two times that Chretien directly intervened in her department, and that by and large she and her staff were free to formulate their own media releases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keepitsimple Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 I know one for sure. Cabinet, save for a few key Ministers (well, more like one key Minister these days) is essentially a vestigial organ. And before you claim Chretien was as bad, Sheila Copps came out nearly a month ago and stated that she could only recall two times that Chretien directly intervened in her department, and that by and large she and her staff were free to formulate their own media releases. But how does that change the life of everyday Canadians? It doesn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpankyMcFarland Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 (edited) What's the two biggest specific changes (not generalities, perceptions, opinions or platitudes) that you've noted - the ones that concern you the most......because I know that people can validly not like his personal style. but I'm having trouble seeing how individual Canadians are worse off under Harper - even economically.....in spite of all the Global troubles. I have done as well financially under Harper as I did under Chretien. I ascribe that to the fact that Canada is a well run country no matter who is in charge. We have had a broad economic consensus on how to run the country since Michael Wilson's time and I expect that to continue regardless of personnel. Then again, my own prosperity depends as much on provincial politics as the federal variety. Ottawa is quite remote from my concerns. What annoys me most about Harper? I have a very long list starting with the PMO and omnibus bills - the usual stuff. My basic concern is the quality of our democracy. I think our parliamentary system is slowly dying. Edited September 30, 2015 by SpankyMcFarland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadBrother Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 But how does that change the life of everyday Canadians? It doesn't. Well, if that's the standard, then we should just get rid of the politicians entirely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angrypenguin Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 I have done as well financially under Harper as I did under Chretien. This is sure not the case for me! Between the GST changes and the TFSA, I'm doing much better under Harper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keepitsimple Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 I have done as well financially under Harper as I did under Chretien. I ascribe that to the fact that Canada is a well run country no matter who is in charge. We have had a broad economic consensus on how to run the country since Michael Wilson's time and I expect that to continue regardless of personnel. What annoys me most about Harper? I have a very long list starting with the PMO and omnibus bills - the usual stuff. Validly so.....but again, that does not affect everyday Canadians.....nor does it affect our democracy or fundamentally, Canada. You are just talking about a government style. Nothing prevents the next government from changing that style - splitting up bills, reducing Cabinet and the PMO. Do you really, seriously think that either Mulcair or Trudeau will do that? With Mulcair's concentration of inexperienced Quebec candidates - he'll need all the help he can get and if Trudeau gets in, he'll need the same and more than likely will "owe" a lot of people. So sure, be frustrated with Harper - but be careful what you wish for - it may in fact be worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angrypenguin Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 Validly so.....but again, that does not affect everyday Canadians.....nor does it affect our democracy or fundamentally, Canada. You are just talking about a government style. Nothing prevents the next government from changing that style - splitting up bills, reducing Cabinet and the PMO. Do you really, seriously think that either Mulcair or Trudeau will do that? With Mulcair's concentration of inexperienced Quebec candidates - he'll need all the help he can get and if Trudeau gets in, he'll need the same and more than likely will "owe" a lot of people. So sure, be frustrated with Harper - but be careful what you wish for - it may in fact be worse. Precisely. Between a 12 year old boy and an angry old man whose party has never run this country, I'll stick with the devil I know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadBrother Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 Validly so.....but again, that does not affect everyday Canadians.....nor does it affect our democracy or fundamentally, Canada. You are just talking about a government style. Nothing prevents the next government from changing that style - splitting up bills, reducing Cabinet and the PMO. Do you really, seriously think that either Mulcair or Trudeau will do that? With Mulcair's concentration of inexperienced Quebec candidates - he'll need all the help he can get and if Trudeau gets in, he'll need the same and more than likely will "owe" a lot of people. So sure, be frustrated with Harper - but be careful what you wish for - it may in fact be worse. Trudeau has committed to defanging the PMO. And why shouldn't voters concern themselves with governing styles? It's almost as if you just want us to completely ignore the way government has been run, on the vague idea that somehow that won't affect us at all. To my mind, the best argument against voting Conservative is that no government should have more than a decade in power. Voting for the Conservatives won't deliver us a better government, it will deliver us about two years of the same, and then a change of leadership where someone like you will declare "But the Tories are now totally different and you should vote for them!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpankyMcFarland Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 Validly so.....but again, that does not affect everyday Canadians.....nor does it affect our democracy or fundamentally, Canada. You are just talking about a government style. Nothing prevents the next government from changing that style - splitting up bills, reducing Cabinet and the PMO. Do you really, seriously think that either Mulcair or Trudeau will do that? With Mulcair's concentration of inexperienced Quebec candidates - he'll need all the help he can get and if Trudeau gets in, he'll need the same and more than likely will "owe" a lot of people. So sure, be frustrated with Harper - but be careful what you wish for - it may in fact be worse. If you have a losing coach, you fire them. You don't say, well, the alternative might be worse. That's a really lame argument for a sports team or a country. Harper has failed UTTERLY to make government more accountable or open. There can be no argument about that. He has definitely made things worse in that regard. Somebody else now deserves a chance. I dislike the phrase 'everyday Canadians' - it is often used in a patronizing way to imply that your average prole doesn't need to concern himself with the big picture. All citizens are affected by a diminution in democracy and that is what we are seeing right now. So after ten years of failure, I am prepared to take a chance on somebody else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 This is the nonsense we have all had to listen to for ten years now. It's the incessant campaigning that drives me mad. EVERYTHING is about getting him re-elected indefinitely. I don't see how that's any different than it was with Chretien and Mulroney and Trudeau. Further, the NDP/Liberal plan to change the way we vote would likely guarantee a series of minority/coalition governments which would be constantly in election mode, and we'd likely have elections every two or three years (if we're lucky) instead of every four or five. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 Only a loyalist like yourself is blind to the change in Canada under Harper. I'm not a loyalist nor an ideologue. I've criticized Harper myself on a number of issues. I'm pretty much dead centre in those political views things August keeps promoting. I just think all this wide-eyed fear of the dreaded Darth Harper is wildly overblown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadBrother Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 I'm not a loyalist nor an ideologue. I've criticized Harper myself on a number of issues. I'm pretty much dead centre in those political views things August keeps promoting. I just think all this wide-eyed fear of the dreaded Darth Harper is wildly overblown. Much as wide-eyed fear of the dreaded Simple Justin or Angry Tom is overblown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capricorn Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 I just think all this wide-eyed fear of the dreaded Darth Harper is wildly overblown. It's interesting that those suffering from anti-Harperism use fear mongering in their accusations that Harper resorts to fear mongering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 Precisely. Between a 12 year old boy and an angry old man whose party has never run this country, I'll stick with the devil I know. Calling Trudeau a 12-year-old boy suggests you've failed to learn anything about him, but have instead simply swallowed the Conservative line, ready to regurgitate. Weren't you just saying that you wish people would do some research instead of just spouting the party line? Maybe take some of your own advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 Much as wide-eyed fear of the dreaded Simple Justin or Angry Tom is overblown. Whether or not Trudeau is smart doesn't really matter. The Liberal machine is fine. Mulcair is smart. Too bad he's in the wrong party. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadBrother Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 Whether or not Trudeau is smart doesn't really matter. The Liberal machine is fine. Mulcair is smart. Too bad he's in the wrong party. The world will continue to spin around the sun regardless of who is elected. The markets will up and down, life will go on. Much of the machinery of government has been explicitly designed to survive changes in the "Government". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keepitsimple Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 If you have a losing coach, you fire them. You don't say, well, the alternative might be worse. That's a really lame argument for a sports team or a country. Harper has failed UTTERLY to make government more accountable or open. There can be no argument about that. He has definitely made things worse in that regard. Somebody else now deserves a chance. I dislike the phrase 'everyday Canadians' - it is often used in a patronizing way to imply that your average prole doesn't need to concern himself with the big picture. All citizens are affected by a diminution in democracy and that is what we are seeing right now. So after ten years of failure, I am prepared to take a chance on somebody else. Honestly - that's really a valid view and I understand it. I personally think that our government is more open and accountable than it was 15 or 20 or 30 years ago. It seems that you can't really hide much anymore......and you only need to look at Sona, Del Maestro, Duffy and Wright to know that there is more accountability. As for "everyday Canadians", it's not meant to be patronizing - it's thinking about those Canadians who yes - don't have time to think about the big picture - they worry about a job, feeding their family, raising kids - getting by......they vote with their gut - they look at issues with their gut - does it feel right. Failure is subjective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadBrother Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 Honestly - that's really a valid view and I understand it. I personally think that our government is more open and accountable than it was 15 or 20 or 30 years ago. It seems that you can't really hide much anymore......and you only need to look at Sona, Del Maestro, Duffy and Wright to know that there is more accountability. As for "everyday Canadians", it's not meant to be patronizing - it's thinking about those Canadians who yes - don't have time to think about the big picture - they worry about a job, feeding their family, raising kids - getting by......they vote with their gut - they look at issues with their gut - does it feel right. Failure is subjective. The only reason the Duffy-Wright Affair ever became known is because someone tipped off Bob Fife. It certainly wasn't through any FOI request. As to Sona, well, I'd say that's an absolute defeat for accountability. We have no idea who gave Sona access to the CIMS data, and judging by the way the CPC legal gurus, and a convenient open-ended trip to Dubai for one of the persons of interest, we probably never will know. Del Mastro, well, he was just a common garden variety cheater, so I'm not sure how you think he's an example of anything other than a candidate getting caught. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 (edited) Much as wide-eyed fear of the dreaded Simple Justin or Angry Tom is overblown. I'm not afraid of Mulcair. I don't care if he's angry as long as he's competent. He seems to be a lot less ideologically rigid than most of his colleagues. On the other hand, most of his colleagues don't seem to be much to look at in terms of people I would like running all those government departments and agencies. And I don't trust how high the taxes would be since he hasn't explained. As for Trudeau, I can honestly say my opinion on him is based on his observable actions, not any kind of hype or bad publicity from other parties. Far too earnest and determined and sure he's right without bothering to investigate anything. I would rather see Mulcair as PM than Trudeau - except Mulcair is more likely than Trudeau to actually implement proportional rep voting, and his version is worse than the Liberals'. Meh. If Mulcair or someone else like Mark Garneau were in charge, I could easily see myself voting Liberal. But no way I'm voting for Trudeau. Edited September 30, 2015 by Argus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadBrother Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 (edited) I'm not afraid of ---SNIP--- myself voting Liberal. Well, there you are. At the end of the day, the sun will still rise. Some peoples' tax bills will go up, some will go down, most of it, despite what anyone claims, will do little to solve a lot of the big problems, because most of the big problems' causes and solutions lie outside our borders. Edited October 1, 2015 by Charles Anthony [---SNIP---] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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