The cost of Migrants

[Derek 2.0]

From the Guardian article linked by Derek 2.0:

Build camps in places where they won't be built. Problem solved.

Right, and is why the EU will close it borders and:

The ministers called for the establishment of refugee camps in Italy and Greece and for the detention of “irregular migrants” denied asylum and facing deportation but for whom “voluntary return” was not currently “practicable”.

[Derek 2.0]

are you really suggesting the numbers/(latest) response in Europe is the same as... here? Hundreds of thousands versus tens of thousands. That you could use the word "unwanted" is certainly in keeping with the Harper Conservative position! You are consistent with the/your party!

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Sure, I find it proportional.......the population of Canada versus the European Union etc

[Peter F]

Right, and is why the EU will close it borders and:

Yes thats exactly what they will do and it will fail because the refugees will keep coming and the EU won't sink the billions into the camps that will be required. They'll do it for the rich influentials but not for refugees. The refugee's will not remain in the camps because the camps will be dead ends.

The camps will be dead-ends because of Europe insistence on accepting a bare minimum of refugees.

And so the plan for Greece and Italy to have 'Camps' will fail miserably and the strife will continue.

[waldo]

Sure, I find it proportional.......the population of Canada versus the European Union etc

typical weasel move... as you shift from country... to union!

[Canada_First]

If the African nations refuse. With hold all aid dollars until they comply. Sooner or later the people will die from starvation and they'll give in.

[waldo]

$350 million for refugees and immigration returned to government, unspent

Canada’s immigration department returned more than $350 million to the federal treasury in unspent funds over a three-year period, a sum that included millions for processing refugee applications and helping asylum-seekers settle into Canada.

The figure, drawn from official government financial reports, has prompted renewed criticism of the Conservatives, who have been under fire on the campaign trail for their handling of the Syrian refugee crisis.

But according to the figures, which were compiled by the Parliamentary Budget Office, CIC returned more than $130 million – or eight per cent of its budget – to federal coffers in fiscal year 2013-14. It returned, or allowed to lapse, more than $140 million, or nine per cent, in 2012-13, and $80 million, or six per cent, in 2011-12.

Full figures for 2014-15 were not immediately available.

considering the efforts (ie. smoke & mirrors) taken by Harper Conservatives to fabricate a 2014/15 surplus... where Federal departments left $8.7 billion unspent last year, when those 2014-15 numbers for Citizenship and Immigration are released... we can see just how much the fabricated surplus (ie. smoke & mirrors) was at the cost of refugee processing and Canada's reputation!

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[Scotty]

Wow, all Muslims are leading a war to create a Caliphate?

There is and has been for some years an ongoing desire among Muslims to re-establish the 'caliphate' a world-wide merging of all Muslims under one government. The majority of Muslims in most surveys say they want such an entity.

Yet in a 2006 Gallup survey of Muslims living in Egypt, Morocco, Indonesia and Pakistan, two-thirds of respondents said they supported the goal of "unifying all Islamic countries" into a new caliphate.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29761018

92% of Saudis in poll says ISIS behaviour is in line with the Koran.

https://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2014/08/24/92-of-saudis-believes-that-isis-conforms-to-the-values-of-islam-and-islamic-law-survey/

it would be a gross mistake to imagine that the idea of universal conquest may be considered as obliterated...the canonists and the vulgar still live in the illusion of the days of Islam's greatness. The legists continue to ground their appreciation of every actual political condition on the law of the holy war, which war ought never be allowed to cease entirely until all mankind is reduced to the authority of Islam-the heathen by conversion, the adherents of acknowledged Scripture [i.e., Jews and Christians] by submission.

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2007/04/the_muslim_mainstream_and_the.html

Edited September 15, 2015 by Scotty

[Scotty]

That was more or less what Jews were accused of some 70-80 years ago by same type of people(planning to take over the world!!!!!).

But it was false, and the only evidence to support it would have been manufactured. On the other hand, we don't have to manufacture the behaviour of the Islamic world, nor the ideological beliefs of many of its militant organizations.

[Rue]

Its a tough issue. You see a wolf pup abandon by its mother-maybe the mother died, maybe she was killed. Do you leave the pup and let nature take its course?

The knee jerk reaction is to take the puppy home which is what is happening now in our media.

[cybercoma]

I posted a Pew research survey of Muslim attitudes in the Muslim world the other day.

This old chestnut that Michael Hardner destroyed long ago.

Let's look at that survey, which I'll assume is the most up to date 2013 survey on Muslims.

Argus often uses this survey to say that Muslims want Sharia law to be instituted in the west. Yet the Pew Research states the results as "% of Muslims who favor making sharia law the official law in their country"

Results show that there is no consistency in attitudes about sharia law. It varies considerably by region. Muslims in South and Southeast Asia, Africa and the Middle East were the most likely to support making sharia law the official law in their country. Muslims in Central Asia and Europe on the other hand were considerably not in favour of making sharia law the official law in their countries.

In some countries where Muslims make up less than a fifth of the population at least half the Muslim population wants sharia law to be the official law there, but these are sub-saharan countries such as Cameroon, Liberia, Congo, and Uganda, where there is considerable religio-political conflict. In contrast, some countries where Muslims make up the vast majority of the population--such as, Tajikstan, Turkey, and Azerbijan, they do not want to make sharia law the official law.

As we can see, there's very little consent amongst Muslims whether they're the majority in a country or not. Some want sharia law to be the official law of their countries, others don't. Pew goes on to explain that there is a pattern around which Muslims do not want sharia law. Those are Muslims in countries where there has been a distinct history that separates religion and the state. Higher support for making sharia law the official law of a country exists where "the legal framework already favours Islam over other religions." Likewise, their support for religious courts mirrors the existing legal systems. Those countries that already favour Islam is where most Muslims say they want sharia law to be the official law of the land.

Further still, the results of the Pew study show that it is older and more devout Muslims who are more likely to want sharia law as the official law of their country. Those under 35 were far less likely to support it, even in areas where there's a high proportion of people who do.

How does this translate to Canada? If we're going to make any sort of comparison to our country then we must assume that the pattern holds true. We are a state that separates religion and the state and our laws and constitution do not favour Islam over other religions; therefore, it's not a stretch to assume from the Pew Research data that Muslims living in Canada are far less likely to want sharia law as the official law of the country. Further still, those who immigrate here are usually younger families, looking to make something of their lives or those who are escaping war and conflict back home. It is these younger people who are less likely to want sharia law as the official law of the land, according to Pew.

But what about extremism? Pew's result show that Muslims everywhere reject violence in the name of Islam. When asked about suicide bombings majorities in every country surveyed said that they are rarely or never justified. In most countries, it was over 75% who rejected violence. The two highest populations who think violence is sometimes justified were in the Palestinian Territories and Afghanistan, though even in these places they were in the minority. The survey found absolutely no link between support for violence and the willingness to institute sharia law, nor any demographic variables such as age, gender, or education.

Further still, in the majority of countries over half the Muslim populations said they were somewhat or very concerned about Muslim extremism. Far more often than not, Muslims are more concerned with Muslim extremism than they are of Christian extremism.

In conclusion, all of this nonsense about Muslims around the world supporting violence, extremism, and sharia law, all of this ignorant garbage about them wanting to come over here and change our laws and political institutions, or importing violence, hatred, and extremism are completely unfounded. An overwhelming majority of Muslims do not have these beliefs, as shown by the 2013 Pew Research study linked to above. Even the previous 2011 survey showed that more than 7-in-10 Muslims around the world reject violence. Argus either doesn't understand the data or doesn't care and is cherry picking pieces to fit his isolationist and xenophobic narrative. Muslims all over the world overwhelmingly reject violence and those who live in countries with separation of church and state do not believe that sharia law should be the official law of their countries. Pew Research made these points explicit, regardless of what Argus is trying to peddle on these forums.

Edited September 15, 2015 by cybercoma

[WIP]

[Michael Hardner]

To add to Cyber's point, you should also Google the number of Americans who oppose leaving Christianity out of the legal system and compare it to places like Turkey.

Here we go:

http://www.politicususa.com/2015/02/25/57-republicans-dismantle-constitution-christianity-national-religion.html

57% of Republicans want Christianity as the official religion of the US. ( comes in between Tunisia and Ghana when compared against popular will towards installing Sharia law about middle of the pack for various regions supporting Sharia law)

http://www.gallup.com/poll/148427/say-bible-literally.aspx

http://www.pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/

30% Christian fundamantalists - also middle of the pack, more than Pakistan about the same as Indonesia

[CITIZEN_2015]

There are fundamentalists in every religion. They don't see their own and attack others. Some Christians too stoned those who committed adultery and killed homosexuals and raped women and abused/abuse children and treated women as second class citizens not long ago and some still do in some parts of the world but they don't see it. considering that Islam came some 600 years after Christianity just read the history what Christians were doing 600 years ago (unfortunately the hateful is ignorant and likely unable to read history) when that religion was 1400 years old.

Edited September 15, 2015 by CITIZEN_2015

[WIP]

There are fundamentalists in every religion. They don't see their own and attack others. Some Christians too stoned those who committed adultery and killed homosexuals and raped women and abused/abuse children and treated women as second class citizens not long ago and some still do in some parts of the world but they don't see it. considering that Islam came some 600 years after Christianity just read the history what Christians were doing 600 years ago (unfortunately the hateful is ignorant and likely unable to read history) when that religion was 1400 years ago.

I'm sick of talking to them or discussing the point anymore! The excuse of opposing Muslims is thrown up even though these same people have done NOTHING for the million Iraqi Christians forced into exile after the fall of Saddam and do nothing for the Syrian Christians who are part of the population desperately trying to sail across the Mediterranean today. It's just the bullshit that selfish, hateful people concoct to justify their hatreds and selfishness!

[Michael Hardner]

Muslim gangs are raping white girls in Europe. That is happening and is verifiable.

Muslims in France are running wild. Thats also verifiable.

Muslim population doubles every 10 years. Once 10% in Canada the same will happen here. The left is happy to have it happen. I believe the left wants to destroy western nations by flooding them with Muslims who will eventually take over.

Every area of Canada has a mosque in it. So one day they'll be able to vote in majority of Muslim Mps and Mpps and local government. At that time they will be able to Change the constitution and vote in Sharia law.

If it's verifiable then why didn't you provide some links ? We have had drive-by posts of the 'proof' that Muslim is somehow more corrosive and evil than other religions but they inevitably come from corrupt sources.

Otherwise, why would one religion have more hold over people than any other ? It's not like they hide a hypno-coin in every Koran or anything.

[CITIZEN_2015]

I'm sick of talking to them or discussing the point anymore! It's just the bullshit that selfish, hateful people concoct to justify their hatreds and selfishness!

Well said.

Yes I am sick too of reading their hateful comments and I know it is best to ignore the hateful and ignorant but somehow find it hard to remain silent against so much display of hate and prejudice.

[Argus]

You realize that without that, you have no point right?

Logic is unwelcome, I take it?

If we bring people here from cultures where women are treated like animals, if not worse, and these cultures are supported by religous beliefs I don't see why the holders of those views are going to magically transform once in Canada. Nor is there any evidence they do, and some that they do not. Certainly they're not integrating well in other countries.

[Argus]

Thanks for the decade-old references, with two-decade-old data. Did you even read those links yourself? They focus on data from the 80's and 90's.

No, they actually don't. Maybe you should give them more than a cursory scan. Just because they say something like "Since the 1980s immigrants have been performing poorly" that doesn't mean the focus is out of date.

Something current:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Canadians

"Indo-Canadians are significantly more likely than the Canadian average to have a university degree, and most Indians in Canada are socio-economically middle class.[2] 54% of Indo-Canadians have household incomes greater than $60,000, compared to the Canadian average of 46%."

Wikpedia is not a refernce which can be stood up against stats canada figures.

My guess is that if you have a university degree, you have basic literacy.

Ah yes, the first order of the true intellectual (that's you, I guess) in defending his position is to insult the guy who disagrees with it! Which tower of babble is proud to claim you as its graduate, sir?

Anybody who has recently been to university, knows it is disproportionately packed with kids of Asian immigrant parents. As a doc I can tell you Indians are massively over-represented relative to their population in that line of work. In my department it is roughly a third. That is massively beyond their represented population. it is the same in nearly every hospital in any city I've worked or studied at, and same in the US.

And anybody who's been to a public housing project knows it is disproportionately packed with immigrants and refugees and their children from around the third world.

http://www.profitguide.com/opportunity/from-india-with-money-30247

"....average household incomes of $95,000, or 14% above the Canadian average"

An unsigned statement on a blog, which quotes no sources for the data? Please! This is what you consider uh, literate?

The stats Canada information I posted on immigrant earnings was based on census data from 2006. Granted, its nine years later, but I've seen nothing to show immigrants are suddenly performing better than they had. Quite the contrary, in fact. I posted a more recent study which suggested as much.

My wife is Indian so I know tons. The universal joke among the kids is of success-driven parents who kick their butts until they are getting 100% in everything and becoming doctors. Then tons become doctors or other high-paying professions. This is the normal path for Indian immigrants today.

Ah, I see. You think I insulted your wife somehow so you're on a tear to defend her honour? Good for you! What a manly man you are!

Of course, you haven't produced any data which can be verified, and no opinions with any basis in logic or common sense.

Maybe you need more education. Perhaps you should try an Indian school. I understand you can get top marks as long as you can climb up the side of a wall, or have sufficient money for bribes...

Edited September 15, 2015 by Argus

[Argus]

No but it means you can't claim it is.

Pianos are falling from the sky. What, we aren't measuring how many are falling? Well then obviously you can't say they are not, can you?

We're not measuring it because liberals are aghast at the thought of measuring things by race or ethnicity. We do not, for example, have official statistics on visible minorities and crime, but anyone who reads the newspapers in our major cities can see who is shooting each other down in the streets and draw their own conclusions.

[cybercoma]

Wikpedia is not a refernce which can be stood up against stats canada figures.

This is convenient, considering Stats Canada figures on household incomes for immigrants from specific geographic regions is suppressed from public records in order to maintain confidentiality. The best public data available is from marketing research online, which suggests that yes, South Asian households do have higher incomes.

[hitops]

Logic is unwelcome, I take it?

Requiring any kind of data is unwelcome, I take it?

[hitops]

No, they actually don't. Maybe you should give them more than a cursory scan. Just because they say something like "Since the 1980s immigrants have been performing poorly" that doesn't mean the focus is out of date.

Well ya actually it does, since it is data from that time they are using as comparison. We simply don't have recent data from statscan. The census does not collect as much info as it used to. The statscan page on indocanadians has not been updated since 2007. That doesn't mean we should rely on outdated data. We have more current information. You just don't like it. I note that you did not address my last source at all, a book on the subject, probably because you cannot.

It's a moot point though, since your references are about immigrants in general. But you were responding to my point about Indo-Canadians, so those links are irrelevant. Obviously different immigrant groups do differently, that's my point. The 'more recent study', is quoting the exact same data as the statscan chart. The data itself is not 9 years old, the census is 9 years old. The data collected is even older.

When did I insult you?

And anybody who's been to a public housing project knows it is disproportionately packed with immigrants and refugees and their children from around the third world.

Great, again irrelevant to my statement about Indo-Canadians. I remind you that this was the statement you quoted and responded to.

Ah, I see. You think I insulted your wife somehow so you're on a tear to defend her honor? Good for you! What a manly man you are!

I didn't think anything like that. You have an amazing capacity to perceive insult on both our sides, when none occurred. I reference Indians because I am very familiar with that community, being married into it. Even before that I knew many, as an academic it was impossible to avoid as the academic scientific world is disproportionately overrun with them. Hence the large percentage of well educated, high earning members. Somehow you are not aware of this.

Maybe you need more education. Perhaps you should try an Indian school. I understand you can get top marks as long as you can climb up the side of a wall, or have sufficient money for bribes...

Relevance? We are obviously talking about Indians in Canada, not India.

I have given you multiple references from the last several years demonstrating Indo-Canadian outperform average Canadians. You have responded ineffectively with statements and sources about immigrants in general. Those are obviously not applicable. Please tell me I don't need to explain why that is.

Indo-Canadian do better. The data shows it. Anecdotally after many years with the Indian community, it is obvious. Will you continue to obtinately try to claim differently?

Edited September 15, 2015 by hitops

[hitops]

Requiring any kind of data is unwelcome, I take it?

You can't demonstrate your point about the Sikhs. Your point is however, a good reason not to accept too many Sunni Arabs from Syria. Their founder and the person they supposedly want to be like (Mohammed), both practiced and endorsed exactly the problem domestic behavior you would allegedly like to avoid. No serious person disputes that the place of women in the Arab world is what we would call acceptable here.

Edited September 15, 2015 by hitops

[Argus]

Requiring any kind of data is unwelcome, I take it?

So to a liberal banning the collection of information which would dispute your cozy view of the world, and then demanding people produce that information is how you get your way?

[Argus]

Well ya actually it does, since it is data from that time they are using as comparison. We simply don't have recent data from statscan.

We have more recent data showing immigrants economic performance has not improved.

http://global-economics.ca/immigration_conservative_policies_2012.htm

The statscan page on indocanadians has not been updated since 2007. That doesn't mean we should rely on outdated data. We have more current information. You just don't like it. I note that you did not address my last source at all, a book on the subject, probably because you cannot.

Your information is unsourced and unverified. A guy on a blog says something, unsourced, and I'm supposed to take his numbers against those of stats canada? No. Some guy I never heard of wrote a book. So? Source?

If you want me to believe that the stats canada figures from nine years ago are completely different now I need something official, not some unsourced material from some unnamed writers.

Again, the last official stats can figures we have suggest immigrants, in general, from that whole part of the world, fare poorly in Canada as far as average income goes.

India 22,878

Pakistan 16,015

West Central Asia and Middle East 13,878

http://global-economics.ca/empin_immigrant_region.htm

When did I insult you?

My guess is that if you have a university degree, you have basic literacy.

You have an amazing capacity to perceive insult on both our sides, when none occurred.

Either you deliberately insulted me or you have no social skills. Which is it?

I reference Indians because I am very familiar with that community, being married into it.

I don't give a crap about the Indian community (no pun intended). I put the information which Stats Canada printed. Somehow this has got you on your high horse. I don't give a crap about that either.

I have given you multiple references from the last several years demonstrating Indo-Canadian outperform average Canadians.

Written, no doubt, by Indo-Canadians. Sorry, not acceptable. I need official numbers to counter official numbers.

Not that, as I said, I care much about the Indians. If they're doing well, fine. I don't believe I've singled them out and demanded we stop taking them. I'm concerned with immigration in general and their economic performance. Produce something official which says that unlike everyone else from that region, our immigrants from India actually perform well economically and pay taxes and I'll be happy.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Argus