Surprise! UN accuses Israel and Hamas of possible war crimes

Rue · June 26, 2015

Cyber I called your position ignorant not you. I actually enjoy some of your posts and hate others. You personally I do not coent on just some of your positions. I also am not here to educate you on the difference between a civilian who holds people hostage an terrorists who use people deliberately as human shields for political purposes.

The fact you think they are the same speaks for itself. Get on the same internet you think gives you the experience to come on this board and act like a counter-terrorism expert and find out.

This thread is about pissing on Israel and you joined in on cue.

The UN has no credibility when investigating war crimes, terrorism, excessive force. It has shown repeatedly its been politically compromised from being able to render apolitical analysis. The same people on this thread who quote it totally ignore it when it criticizes Hamas. They only chirp when they think they can exploit its findings to send out the usual piss on Israel comments,

People like you have no idea what the ground situation is in Gaza, the proximity of terrorists to Israeli citizens, the actual problems an incoming missile does to Israel's people and economy. That is a fact not an insult, and it distorts your vision and adds to your preconceived biases as to how the IDF should react.

You sit smug in a sheltered environment taking all your freedoms for granted, oblivious to what terrorism is, thinking you can act as a counter terrorism expert based on your preconceived anti Israel views and pictures and articles from the internet. That is a fact not an insult. We all do it. We remain disconnected from actual reality depending on the media which filters reality for our information. I am equally as ignorant as you. I know Gaza. I was there. I know terrorism-I witnessed it first hand. I don't come on this board welcoming the death of Palestinians. For God's sakes man, you know enough of my words to know the blood of 1 Palestinian civilian o r Israeli is the same to me and I do not justify excessive force. What I do challenge is the basis from which you think you can question the force the IDF used. The IDF loses soldiers who put the lives of Palestinians before their own. Hamas is the exact opposite they deliberately kill their civilians for press coverage. In this last conflict they lied to their fellow Palestinians telling the there was a truce. The people came out to get food and died because Hamas then sent a missile fro where these people were at the IDF. They deliberately lied to their people after being told by the IDF that the very place Hamas was told there was a no go zone, it was safe to go in and then deliberately shot a missile to assure their deaths. Palestinian civilians reported this to the world media., Now go find it in your UN report.

I will say it again. The people who come on this thread pissing on Israel exploit the death and suffering of Palestinians-they don't know them-they presume to-they do not. They are shrills for Hamas. They render this conflict a joke-a World Wrestling Federation match with simplistic moral judgements and name calling just as they would a wrestling match.

Join them. I am not hear to educate you on terrorism, counter terrorism or police tactics for hostage takings. Hamas deliberately exposes its civilians to needless death. It takes money that could build a society and instead spends it on weapons and tunnels.

Its your opinion I challenge not you personally. Period. I think you are a dupe and play right into the propaganda ploy of Hamas but no doubt I do not think you do it intentionally. That is my opinion. Its not meant as an insult as your motives or you, just the positions you express.

If I could take you for just five minutes into Gaza and walk you through a town, you would never need to ask what is the difference between using civilians as shields deliberately for a political action of terrorism and a hostage taking in a domestic scenario.

If I explained to you how I talked down abusive men threatening to hurt their wives or children would you listen? Of course not. You would ridicule my work and credentials- no I don't provide training manuals to you but you could find some if you wanted to.

A hostage negotiator for the police, a family mediator, a crisis counselor, do not use the same approaches as a counter-terrorism professional. The scenarios, the psychological phenomena, the reaction time, is completely different.

Staring down an angry man in a domestic dispute or a crime gone wrong, is not a counter-terrorist action. AS well SWAT who are called in often have orders to kill, and yes civilians have died in hostage takings. Don't be absurd to suggest SWAT or professional hostage negotiators can save everyone. It is by the grace of God they prevent deaths and this is said by someone who has seen God die any times. I do not use that word lightly. I use it to mean miracle. I am not a religious man-I only know body parts that go in plastic bags and must be buried within so many hours as religion. But I do know the sanctity of life and how humans in extra ordinary situations are called upon to try preserve it-their they walk and its huge shoes they walk in. You think you can second guess them-go ahead.

All I know is when they come back from their mission and for the rest of their lives question what they could have done better you won't be there and understand what they live with.

The respect I have for police or military in such situations is based on humility witnessing their own.

If you think IDF deliberately kill civilians sing along.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Rue

cybercoma · June 26, 2015

Cool story, bud. You want to answer my questions now?

Canada_First · June 26, 2015

How are they to play out in the open when they are not allowed to have any kind of standing police/army? Also, we always here the rhetoric from Israel that is is simply only a couple miles wide and hard to defend against, while the occupied territories are much smaller. So I don't know.

The IDF need to just March through the area and kill everyone in it. Clear out the bodies. Bulldoze the place and rebuild it as part if Israel. Silly having Gaza there in the first place. Move all Arabs to Jordan.

Hudson Jones · June 26, 2015

Why would you call them that?

Because they violate human rights and lie about it consistently.

Hudson Jones · June 26, 2015

There is no question whether or not taking down a building with civilians in it, even if you think there may be 'terrorists' in it is illegal under international law. That said, to counter the Zionist groupies who have come in here to muddy the water with their misinformation, it's important to acknowledge that the report has found that on many occasions, the IDF simply targeted civilians without any militants nearby.

Oh and the IDF used civilians as human shields, even though we keep hearing them, falsely, accuse Hamas as using civilians as human shields.

cybercoma · June 26, 2015

There is no question whether or not taking down a building with civilians in it, even if you think there may be 'terrorists' in it is illegal under international law. That said, to counter the Zionist groupies who have come in here to muddy the water with their misinformation, it's important to acknowledge that the report has found that on many occasions, the IDF simply targeted civilians without any militants nearby.

Oh and the IDF used civilians as human shields, even though we keep hearing them, falsely, accuse Hamas as using civilians as human shields.

What are you talking about? Apparently it's perfectly reasonable to implode a bank building when someone takes hostages.

GostHacked · June 26, 2015

The IDF need to just March through the area and kill everyone in it. Clear out the bodies. Bulldoze the place and rebuild it as part if Israel. Silly having Gaza there in the first place. Move all Arabs to Jordan.

This trollish rhetoric is very helpful to further a discussion. I wonder if that was the same mentality Nazis held against Jews.

Hudson Jones · June 26, 2015

The IDF need to just March through the area and kill everyone in it. Clear out the bodies. Bulldoze the place and rebuild it as part if Israel. Silly having Gaza there in the first place. Move all Arabs to Jordan.

Are you some satirical character, trying to show how ridiculous and ugly Zionists can be?

Rue · June 27, 2015

Cyber you asked me no questions.You in fact posed some rhetorical questions and then answered them yourself indicating false assumptions based on a fact situation you won't even state,

You show clearly you are not interested in any one's point of view but your own and won't even make an effort to present the fact situation you think is the one you draw your conclusion ro.

If you actually have a question you want to ask me, ask it but don't pose questions you clearly indicate in your answers that you have no intent in debating or discussing.

You are an arm chair expert on counter espionage who thinks uttering "cool story bro" is debate and serves as your shield in being unable to debate. It is not. It simply shows when you make such pat comments you have no idea what source you are relying on let alone claim to have based your discussion on.

Why don't you make an effort before you make statements that show you are ignorant as to the actual topic, such as "cool story bro" and acrefer to a specific situation for starters and show what info you are relying on for that info and the assumptions you make.

You won't. You can't. You have no idea what story it is you actually are concluding the IDF acted inappropriately in. Not a clue. You jumped on a bandwagon to piss on Israel and you don't even know what the incident was. Go on quote it and your source for it.

Edited June 27, 2015 by Rue

cybercoma · June 28, 2015

Rue, you've offered absolutely nothing to this discussion, but personal insults and text walls that waste everyone's time.

I never claimed to have any expertise at all. I asked you how Hamas taking human shields is any different from any other criminals taking human shields and hostages.

I'm still waiting for that explanation. Unless you actually address that issue, then I'm done with this conversation.

My point is this, since you keep mischaracterizing it and insulting me. Israel bears the responsibility for murdering human shields/hostages in order to kill the perpetrators they're trying to get to. Instead of being stuck in binary thinking, like this somehow indemnifies Hamas, realize that it doesn't. I just can't for the life of me understand how people can just shrug their shoulders at the indiscriminate killing that Israel engages in, saying we should blame Hamas. We do. Consider this: if a SWAT team burned a house down, killing everyone inside, because some dude murdered his wife and took the children hostage, we would be criticizing that police force's insane and unconscionable actions. Nobody would think that means we're saying the guy who murdered his wife was innocent. So to with Israel should we criticize their disproportionate response that indiscriminately butchers innocent civilians who've been made human shields by Hamas. Yet instead, time and time again, folks like you just turn a blind eye to Israel's responsibility in this situation.

bush_cheney2004 · June 28, 2015

Still waiting for their first thread to condemn Hamas and Palestinian terrorists for war crimes and genocide irrespective of Jews/Israel.

Edited June 28, 2015 by bush_cheney2004

cybercoma · June 28, 2015

Still waiting for their first thread to condemn Hamas and Palestinian terrorists for war crimes and genocide irrespective of Jews/Israel.

Then make it. If you're going to imply assumptions from silence, then I might as well assume that you're a Hamas-loving terrorist sympathizer, since you too haven't made that thread.

Edited June 28, 2015 by cybercoma

bush_cheney2004 · June 28, 2015

Still waiting....waiting....waiting. Israel's haters just can't do it.

GostHacked · June 28, 2015

People bitch about no threads on that subject, yet very few end up making those threads. Why? Do they simply want to troll these threads? I think so!

Rue · June 28, 2015

I have never insulted you personally Cyber and your playing victim is tiresome. You have now changed the question you claimed to have asked me 3 times since responding to me.

You came on this thread to question and characterize what the IDF has done as excessive and yet you can't even provide information on the incident you claim they acted excessively in.

You quote a UN report do you? Right. . You even now what it said other than to have jumped to its conclusion and the inflammatory title on this thread? Well? You even know what incidents it refers to? Of course not. Go on I asked you, provide one incident in which you have proof Israel acted excessively and explain why. You can't and that is my point you again demonstrated.

As for the victim shtick you think posing as a victim will deflect from your inability to respond? What you think trying to unilaterally control what I can respond to from you or threaten to hold your breath and close your eyes is debating? Really?

I don't really care at this point if you hold your breath and whine and have a snit. You have established my point,-you haven't a clue what incident or incidents you are talking about and you are bluffing your way along condemning what the IDF did having no clue what they did other than read an inflammatiry bi-line and use that as your basis for now being a counter-security expert who talks of police and counter-terrorist tactics as one in the same and then admits he has no expertise in either area but then goes right back to the same accusations which necessarily suggest either you have such expertise or in fact you think you can assume from a negative bi-line you have information to condemn the IDFs Since you ruled out the former, then only the

latter exists since you sure as hell have provided zero basis for your base of knowledge as to excessive IDF force.

By the way I put up a wall? Right. I responded specifically to your words. What you think it establishes your credibility by dismissing y counter-positions without taking an effort to respond to them by using words like "wall"? Poof its gone because the rebuttal doesn't suit you?

Then you pull a snit and unilaterally declare to me I can only respond to you if you control what I am allowed to respond to? Lol.

Right.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Rue

Rue · June 28, 2015

As expected the anti Israelis on this board are now using a UN report to try couch yet another piss on Israel thread complete with the inflamatory headline.

Here of course is what Marcus-HJ-Cyber et al will not acknowledge:

1- the commission’s initial chairman, William Schabas, had to resign from his position after his blatant bias against Israel was exposed, i.e., he worked for the Palestine Liberation Organization-only in the UN do you create a commission which is supposed to be neutral whose Chairman is not only anti Israel, but a lobbyist for the Palestinian Authority;

2-this same report condemned the Palestinian Authority for failing to investigate alleged wrongdoings adequately and yet this is the same PA the UN relied on as well as Hamas to make their investigatory conclusions about IDF conduct-the same PA and Hamas who covered up their own wrongdoings-none of the UN evidence was obtained by neutral ground observers, its al bias second hand heresay never corroborated first hand;

3-this U.N. Commission of Inquiry found after 6,000 air strikes, only 6 cases, where this Commission decided Israel used precision-guided munitions in residential buildings " without any military objective "- they provided no explanation how they differentiated these 6 from the others and even their own findings in fact found only .006 percent of the IDF air strikes without basis and this is what the anti shrills rely on to piss on Israel...its laughable if it were not for the fact that no civilian death on either side is laughable but the exploitation of Palestinian suffering by these anti Israeli shrills is pathetic-the very stats contradict the findings-.006% yah that shows an intent to kill Palestinian civilians;

5-the Commission stated, "Merely issuing a warning does not absolve the Israel Defense Forces of their obligations to protect civilian life,"...what bias pap becaus in this analysis Israeli civilian life being protected against Hamas by these preemptive strikes was NEVER considered by the commisssion and further the commission had no explanation of how Israel should have protected its civilians from Hamas rendering the very conclusion meaningless without that alternative example to what they criticized;

6-the comission also blatantly contradicted itself with grand irony stating Israel had no militry context for its 6 air strikes but by stating the very reason did what it did with this statement of finding by he comission:

"The use of rockets in the possession of Palestinian armed groups, indiscriminate in nature, and any targeted mortar attacks against civilians constitute violations of international humanitarian law, in particular the fundamental principle of distinction, which may amount to a war crime."

7- the com mission also condemned the Palestinian Authority for "woefully inadequate" investigations "despite allegations of violations of international humanitarian law on the part of Palestinian actors." .....

The abive of course the anti Israel shrills stay silent on.

If Cyber had any credibility he would have read the report and found the above and acknolwedged it andprefaced his piss on Israel stance by acknowleging:

1-the UN did not have ground observers-any conclusions it made about the 6 strikes it did criticize came from Hamas-in fact Palestinian civilians repeatedly sent out messages saying they were being used as shields by Hammas and the UN commission makes no explanation how it knew in the 6 attacks it singled out they were not initiated by Hamas deliberately;

2-the Commission’s findings were not based on first hand neutral observers in the field but second hand heresay whose very evidence can not be corroborated.

This is whyt I asked Cber to explain the basis for the 6 attacks being criticized he can't-he has no clue what happened in those 6 incidents that is my point.

Cyber will of course pose a theoretical question with a buit in answer concluding ANY response from Israel to Hamas where civilians are placed by Hamas as shields to die-is the IDF's fault.

Because Hamas deliberately places Palestinians in the direct path of return fire, its Israel's fault.

Israel of course should use magic bullets that differentiate between Hamas and the shields they use.

Using Cyber's reasoning if a person hides behind a civilian and uses them as a shield, do nothing. In his world the police or military whatever, are to do nothing because it might kill the civilian. Its that easy. We can sit back in our sheltered environments never to have experiuenced a ground war like this, on our computer... removed from reality and pass pronouncement on the IDF-its easy-just ignore Hamas-ignore the tunnels the UN condemned, ignore the missiles, ignore the entire context- just sit there and selectively ignore that Hamas spews out over and over again its consitution and mission to wipe out all Israeli Jews and for that matter anyone including Palestinians that do not agree with them-let's just ignore that the PA and Haas engage in the very thing to their own civilians they accuse the IDF of.

I say to the whole lot of you who now hide behind this UN report to couch your latest Zionist urination festival that , it gives you didn't even read the damned report and you in fact exploit the deaths of Palestinian civilians to advance a pro Hamas agenda that will do nothing but encourage Hamas to keep klling civilians.

Yah I know Cyber its a wall and you won't respond to it.

Guess what I have and I repeat again-one death, just one on either side-just one civilian death is a tragedy. Those of you who now exploit the deaths of Palestinian civilians to piss on Israel shrll for Hamas. You do exactly the pr stunt they kill their civilians for.

Hamas deliberately kills its civilians in a p.r. game to fuel you anti Israelis shrill on cue.

You think you know the ground war-the reality of death, of what an IDF soldier goes through-you stereotype them as deliberately killing Palestinian civilians.

Does just one of you shrills have the human decency just once to acknowledge just how many IDF soldiers died this last war because they placed the lives of Palestinian civilians before their own? Well? Would one of you shrills ever admit that or discuss that?

Will one of you come on this board and offer balanced citicism-of course not.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Rue

cybercoma · June 28, 2015

Still waiting....waiting....waiting. Israel's haters just can't do it.

Yup. Why do you hate Israel so much that you refuse to start a thread on the atrocities committed by Palestinian terrorists?

cybercoma · June 28, 2015

I have never insulted you personally Cyber and your playing victim is tiresome. You have now changed the question you claimed to have asked me 3 times since responding to me.

You came on this thread to question and characterize what the IDF has done as excessive and yet you can't even provide information on the incident you claim they acted excessively in.

You quote a UN report do you? Right. . You even now what it said other than to have jumped to its conclusion and the inflammatory title on this thread? Well? You even know what incidents it refers to? Of course not. Go on I asked you, provide one incident in which you have proof Israel acted excessively and explain why. You can't and that is my point you again demonstrated.

As for the victim shtick you think posing as a victim will deflect from your inability to respond? What you think trying to unilaterally control what I can respond to from you or threaten to hold your breath and close your eyes is debating? Really?

I don't really care at this point if you hold your breath and whine and have a snit. You have established my point,-you haven't a clue what incident or incidents you are talking about and you are bluffing your way along condemning what the IDF did having no clue what they did other than read an inflammatiry bi-line and use that as your basis for now being a counter-security expert who talks of police and counter-terrorist tactics as one in the same and then admits he has no expertise in either area but then goes right back to the same accusations which necessarily suggest either you have such expertise or in fact you think you can assume from a negative bi-line you have information to condemn the IDFs Since you ruled out the former, then only the

latter exists since you sure as hell have provided zero basis for your base of knowledge as to excessive IDF force.

By the way I put up a wall? Right. I responded specifically to your words. What you think it establishes your credibility by dismissing y counter-positions without taking an effort to respond to them by using words like "wall"? Poof its gone because the rebuttal doesn't suit you?

Then you pull a snit and unilaterally declare to me I can only respond to you if you control what I am allowed to respond to? Lol.

Right.

What the hell are you going on about?

Can you show me where in this post you explain how Hamas using human shields is different from other criminals taking hostages?

Rue · June 28, 2015

Cyber I can not because I have never made such and analogy you have. I mocked your analogy. You either don't read what I write or you can't grasp it.

Hamas is a terrorist organization that believes its religion Isla, justifies it killing its own people and others in the name of Allah.

It believes when it gets its people killed this is religiously a good thing.

They also do it because with each Palestinian citizen they kill people like you preach on their behalf how evil Israel is empowering their p.r. agenda.

A criminal in a hostage situation is not politically motivated as part of an on-going war of terror-terrorists are. Terrorists are criinals but criminals are not all terrorists something you clearly can't grasp.A criminal by definition breaks criminal laws that are most often not political and most often deal with domestic martital disputes, bank robberies or other robberies gone wrong or mentally ill people.

The police in fact use different kinds of approaches ranging from SWAT units to hostage negotiators. They have different scenarios and options available to the then a conventional army fighting a terrorist cell using its people as shields.

Are you that thick you can not understand Hamas does not negotiate when it places its civilians as human shields? These civilians are dead when Hamas not Israel chooses to shoot from their homes and use their schools, hospitals, homes as launching posts. Hamas makes that decision not Israel and no Israel can not and will not sit back and do nothing because Hamas does this.

What Israel does is to try its hardest not to kill civilians but its not perfect nor is that possible. The .006% statistic speaks loudly as to how in 6,000 sortes, the UN could only come up with 6 to criticize and you of course won't address that or the defects of the report.

Instead you do what? What was the point of your last response? You even know?

Edited June 28, 2015 by Rue

cybercoma · June 29, 2015

Cyber I can not because I have never made such and analogy you have. I mocked your analogy. You either don't read what I write or you can't grasp it.

I can't grasp it because your thoughts and writing meander everywhere, so I gloss over most things you post.

Since you made a mockery of the comparison, why not actually explain why it doesn't apply? Even in the above post, you write in 400 words what could be summed up as "they're terrorists." I know they're terrorists. How does that make a difference? You say that Hamas are politically motivated (no crap). Why does that matter when Israel is killing the terrorists' hostages?

Are you that thick you can not understand Hamas does not negotiate when it places its civilians as human shields?

First of all, screw you.

Secondly, what does it matter that they refuse to negotiate? Do you think hostage takers negotiate in all situations? They don't. That's only in the movies that you see that nonsense as a plot device.

These civilians are dead when Hamas not Israel chooses to shoot from their homes and use their schools, hospitals, homes as launching posts.

Are you saying Hamas kills these civilians before launching their attacks? Because it's Israel who fires on residential neighbourhoods to get at Hamas, indiscriminately killing the terrorists as well as thousands of innocent civilians in the process. You know, kind of like the SWAT team imploding a bank with hostages inside to get at the bank robbers who are firing at police. Your argument is that the murdering those hostages is a valid response from the police because it's all the hostage taker's fault that those people are in harm's way. So instead of blaming the hostage taker for his crimes and also holding the police accountable for their unconscionable decision to murder all the hostages, your argument is that that only the hostage taker bears any responsibility in the situation. How would you like a job working for the police force and having to explain that to the families of the hostages? Sorry. Blame the hostage taker. We were just defending ourselves.

Hamas makes that decision not Israel and no Israel can not and will not sit back and do nothing because Hamas does this.

What Israel does is to try its hardest not to kill civilians but its not perfect nor is that possible.

That's your opinion and it's completely wrong. Several observer organizations have made note of Israel's indiscriminate attacks on civilian populations. Israel admits to it and does exactly what you're doing. Blames Hamas, instead of taking responsibility for killing hostages. I reject your idea that "Israel tries its hardest not to kill civilians." We know that's not true and we have a body count to prove it. We also know that Israel bulldozes apartment buildings to take over territory and on more than one occasion they've done this with people who refused to move still in them.

The .006% statistic speaks loudly as to how in 6,000 sortes, the UN could only come up with 6 to criticize and you of course won't address that or the defects of the report.

I haven't addressed this because it's not part of the philosophical discussion that I'm trying to have with you right now about Israel's indiscriminate use of force and their responsibility when it comes to killing innocent people. If you want to talk about international laws, then call the Palestinian uprising a war. Israel still has an obligation under international law to protect innocent people on both sides. They don't and neither does Hamas. However, you only want to criticize Hamas and pretend like Israel's hands are clean.

Instead you do what? What was the point of your last response? You even know?

My point is to try to get you to address your earlier point that said the metaphor of a hostage situation does not apply.

Even after all of this garbage that I just waded through, the TL;DR of your post is "The metaphor doesn't work because Hamas are politically motivated and you're an idiot."

So I will ask you again, plainly this time, what responsibility does Israel have for the deaths of thousands of innocent Palestinians? We already know that Hamas is a scum terrorist organization that intentionally targets civilians, usually unsuccessfully, but not for a lack of trying. But what responsibility does Israel have for the way it engages Hamas by indiscriminately killing innocent civilians at the same time?

cybercoma · June 29, 2015

Frankly, I would have more respect for you if you just said, "None. Israel has no responsibility. It's all Hamas's fault and I would be ok with the police murdering hostages too because that situation is all the criminal's fault." I would think your opinion is ridiculous, but at least you would be owning up to that position.

Edited June 29, 2015 by cybercoma

Big Guy · June 29, 2015

To cybercoma - I envy your patience and dedication of time. I have long since given up and am spending my time and effort towards more productive postings.

cybercoma · June 29, 2015

To cybercoma - I envy your patience and dedication of time. I have long since given up and am spending my time and effort towards more productive postings.

Thanks. What I want Rue to address is where the line is when it comes to Israel's response. His argument, and others who support it, concern me. If Israel has no ethical responsibility or even legal responsibility to protect innocent civilians when they're responding to Hamas's illegal attacks, then what does that imply? Why not just drop a nuke on the West Bank and wipe out everyone? Rue's argument would go that Hamas was responsible for Israel nuking the West Bank and killing all of those innocent civilians. Israel has no ethical responsibility to measure their attacks or protect civilians. It's entirely Hamas's fault for putting those civilians in harm's way. It's a bankrupt argument that doesn't hold up legally nor ethically and it absolves Israel of its crimes. I use the hostage situation as an example because that's exactly what the situation is. Cops running into a hostage situation shooting everything that moves, then blaming the hostage taker for forcing them to kill innocent hostages.

BC_chick · June 29, 2015

CC, I'm surprised with your take here. You seemed quite supportive of Israel during the Gaza bombing.

GostHacked · June 29, 2015

CC, I'm surprised with your take here. You seemed quite supportive of Israel during the Gaza bombing.

CC was trying out an experiment. He started to act like others do on this board to see what kind of feedback he would get. At least that is what I understand about his 'change' in posting styles and what he posts.