So what would an NDP government do?

[On Guard for Thee]

Yes, we can. One of the best this country has ever seen. A minority parliament forced a massive deficit upon them that was not part of their plan at all, and they still managed to substantially cut taxes, grow the economy, increase government revenue, restore the funding that the previous government had cut, make substantial increases to many essential programs, and still retire that deficit in record time. And they did all of that despite weathering a massive global recession in the middle of it.

I have heard some whopper excuses in my day, but that one about the deficit being forced on them has to be one of the juiciest ever.

[Bryan]

I have heard some whopper excuses in my day, but that one about the deficit being forced on them has to be one of the juiciest ever.

It's what happened. The CPC introduced a far different (much smaller) budget, and the opposition, who had more seats, rejected it and demanded more spending.

It's a called reality, you really should visit sometime.

[On Guard for Thee]

It's what happened. The CPC introduced a far different (much smaller) budget, and the opposition, who had more seats, rejected it and demanded more spending.

It's a called reality, you really should visit sometime.

The reality is Harper cut tax, mostly the hst but also corporate, and into deficit we went for all of his reign so far. Now of course no one likes paying taxes, but services, if we wat them, have to be paid for somehow. Harpers stewardship over the economy speaks for itself, all you have to do is look at the real numbers.

[Canada_First]

I have heard some whopper excuses in my day, but that one about the deficit being forced on them has to be one of the juiciest ever.

It was forced on them. They threatened to make coalition over it if the Tories didnt spend the money.

[On Guard for Thee]

It was forced on them. They threatened to make coalition over it if the Tories didnt spend the money.

Thats a re write of history. Ignatieff had just taken his place and was not about to for a coalition to take down the government. Harper wet on a spending spree as a result, and the rest is history.

[On Guard for Thee]

It's what happened. The CPC introduced a far different (much smaller) budget, and the opposition, who had more seats, rejected it and demanded more spending.

It's a called reality, you really should visit sometime.

No, the coalition had fallen apart without having yet see the budget. In part because Ignatieff had just take over the LPC, and also because Harper was starting out doing his favorite trick of proroguing the government.

[Bryan]

No, the coalition had fallen apart without having yet see the budget. In part because Ignatieff had just take over the LPC, and also because Harper was starting out doing his favorite trick of proroguing the government.

You don't get to just make up a new history just because you don't like the real one.

The coalition was formed AFTER the Nov 2008 fiscal update, and the threat to bring the government down was very specifically because they wanted substantial stimulus spending, rather than the modest spending cuts that Flaherty was proposing. Harper asked the GG to prorogue Parliament after that, in order to start a new sitting of parliament with anew throne speech and a new budget.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–09_Canadian_parliamentary_dispute

[On Guard for Thee]

You don't get to just make up a new history just because you don't like the real one.

The coalition was formed AFTER the Nov 2008 fiscal update, and the threat to bring the government down was very specifically because they wanted substantial stimulus spending, rather than the modest spending cuts that Flaherty was proposing. Harper asked the GG to prorogue Parliament after that, in order to start a new sitting of parliament with anew throne speech and a new budget.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–09_Canadian_parliamentary_dispute

http://blogs.canoe.com/raisinghell/politics/federal-tories-were-not-forced-into-deficit/

[Bryan]

As usual, you're listing dubious opinions and revisionist histories, while I'm discussing the actual facts.

2008–09 Canadian parliamentary dispute

After the Conservative government tabled its fiscal update, NDP leader Jack Layton asked his predecessor, Ed Broadbent, to contact former Liberal prime minister Jean Chrétien to discuss a coalition to oust the Conservatives from power. The plan became public almost immediately.^[13] Labelling the absence of an economic stimulus plan as irresponsible and the removal of public funding to parties as an attack against democracy, the opposition threatened to topple the weeks-old government by voting against the fiscal update.

Broadbeck has his timeline just as mixed up as you do: Dion, not Ignatieff, was designated to take over as PM if the GG were to accept the coalition:

Opposition agrees to coalition with Dion as PM

In a historic political move, the leaders of the Liberals, NDP and the Bloc Quebecois signed a formal agreement Monday to topple the Tories and co-operate as a coalition government for at least 18 months.

"I'm pleased to announce we are ready to form a government," said Dion, adding that the new alliance will "effectively, prudently, promptly and competently address these critical economic times."

Edited June 19, 2015 by Bryan

[On Guard for Thee]

As usual, you're listing dubious opinions and revisionist histories, while I'm discussing the actual facts.

2008–09 Canadian parliamentary dispute

Broadbeck has his timeline just as mixed up as you do: Dion, not Ignatieff, was designated to take over as PM if the GG were to accept the coalition:

Opposition agrees to coalition with Dion as PM

Yeah you just forgot to take your facts forward enough. After Harper prorogued, Dion was ousted, Ignatieff took his place, ad he agreed to vote for the budget with an accommodation of regular accountability reports. So it was implemented, and the deficits began, for nearly a decade so far.

[Bryan]

Yeah, LATER, after the coalition rejected the austerity budget, and got the increased spending they demanded (while still crying that it wasn't enough), THEN they replaced Dion, and Ignatieff voted in favor of the budget that Dion had negotiated with Harper.

[On Guard for Thee]

Yeah, LATER, after the coalition rejected the austerity budget, and got the increased spending they demanded (while still crying that it wasn't enough), THEN they replaced Dion, and Ignatieff voted in favor of the budget that Dion had negotiated with Harper.

Nope.Harper prorogued before the budget. After parliament resumed, Layton and Duceppe still wanted either a change in the budget or a no confidence vote, but by then Ignatieff was running the Liberals and agreed to vote for the budget, with the aforementioned updates. The budget passed. The major deficits began when Harper decided to knock 2 cents off the hst.

[Bryan]

Nope.Harper prorogued before the budget. After parliament resumed, Layton and Duceppe still wanted either a change in the budget or a no confidence vote, but by then Ignatieff was running the Liberals and agreed to vote for the budget, with the aforementioned updates. The budget passed. The major deficits began when Harper decided to knock 2 cents off the hst.

Dion negotiated the stimulus details of the new budget, and Ignatieff voted for it.

-- the timeline of when Dion stepped down (which wasn't until december 2008), is irrelevant to the main point anyway: the opposition in a minority parliament got the spending that they demanded.

Edited June 19, 2015 by Bryan

[WWWTT]

Sounds like this would be damaging to the country.

Actually Canada's economy is now the #16 in the world!

How far down before do we slide before Canadians "get it"?

WWWTT

[eyeball]

The fisheries were taken over by Chinese buyers in 90's helped by the provincial BC NDP. Allowing licenses to be sold to foreign entities was a provincial decision not federal as evidenced by New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and others refusing to allow license holders to be outside of Canada - in fact you couldn't have a commercial license there if you were even out of province in those other areas.

What? Do you have any sort of link at all, to what ever source you're getting this from?

[Topaz]

One thing Canadians must remember, WE really don't know how good or bad Financial situation is. The Tories say they have a balanced the deficit but I think that doesn't happen to next year and we don't know how much the war is costing, the US has spent over 2 Billion with bombing. I think its really unfair for the two opposition parties to say what they are going to do, when they don't know the whole financial picture, which I think the books should be open before the campaigning starts and that would help voters. The opposition has said many times that the Tories have raised taxes but are hidden in cost of items. Whatever the Tories promised to do, the other two parties can do also, if they wish. The money for Toronto transportation, will take years to get and only small amounts at a time, so its not really all at. Tories NEED Toronto , so Harper will promise anything to get it and after elected will say, sorry the global economy doesn't allow me too. They are also starting to build the 3 BIL bridge between Windsor and Detroit, and Canadians tax payer are paying for ALL of it until its built and then tolls will come back to the feds.....how long will it take to recoup the Billions??

[eyeball]

I didn't disposes you. All those people with pension money tied up in the stock market didn't disposes you either. All; those people who would lose their jobs if investment money stops coming into Canada didn't disposes you. And if you're angry and bitter at us all that would seem to mark you as a failure who's just lashing out.

Yes you did dispossess us when you kept electing and defending the same style of governance that's demolished thriving fishing communities and industries on both coasts.

Maybe you thought it was someone else's problem or that fishing communities had it coming or something. Maybe you just didn't give a shit.

[Vancouver King]

One thing Canadians must remember, WE really don't know how good or bad Financial situation is. The Tories say they have a balanced the deficit but I think that doesn't happen to next year and we don't know how much the war is costing, the US has spent over 2 Billion with bombing. I think its really unfair for the two opposition parties to say what they are going to do, when they don't know the whole financial picture, which I think the books should be open before the campaigning starts and that would help voters. The opposition has said many times that the Tories have raised taxes but are hidden in cost of items. Whatever the Tories promised to do, the other two parties can do also, if they wish. The money for Toronto transportation, will take years to get and only small amounts at a time, so its not really all at. Tories NEED Toronto , so Harper will promise anything to get it and after elected will say, sorry the global economy doesn't allow me too. They are also starting to build the 3 BIL bridge between Windsor and Detroit, and Canadians tax payer are paying for ALL of it until its built and then tolls will come back to the feds.....how long will it take to recoup the Billions??

You can wager Conservatives will open the money spigots wide, bribing us with our own tax money in a desperate effort to avoid defeat.

[Topaz]

Yes, I agree with you, that's why Harper was in Toronto, but if Canadians want to collect their CPP, OAS at 65, they have to rid of the Tories and Harper is also making big chances to the health care, reducing is by 36 Billion, I believe and Ontario, can't have that or have seniors go on welfare as Harper has said until they turn 67!

[cybercoma]

It's what happened. The CPC introduced a far different (much smaller) budget, and the opposition, who had more seats, rejected it and demanded more spending.

It's a called reality, you really should visit sometime.

The CPC never introduced smaller anything. That's the BS they feed you and you gobble down asking for seconds. If the Conservatives were actually interested in smaller government, then why the hell do they have the largest executive in the history of the country? You know cabinet ministers and parliamentary secretaries are paid more too, right? The Harper Government isn't interested in balancing books and they sure as hell aren't interested in smaller governments. If they were actually competent fiscal managers, they would have found a sustainable way to balance the books instead of raiding working people's insurance fund and selling off stocks and other government investments. Keep touting that Conservative fiscal competence. What they do paints a far different picture from what they say.

[cybercoma]

The reality is Harper cut tax, mostly the hst but also corporate, and into deficit we went for all of his reign so far. Now of course no one likes paying taxes, but services, if we wat them, have to be paid for somehow. Harpers stewardship over the economy speaks for itself, all you have to do is look at the real numbers.

How short people's memories are that they forget Harper is the one who set the fire by destroying federal revenue. He not only blew through a surplus that was handed to him, but also went into deficit. He set the fire and now people want to give him credit for putting it out by raiding billions from EI and selling off GM stock.

[eyeball]

You can wager Conservatives will open the money spigots wide, bribing us with our own tax money in a desperate effort to avoid defeat.

I rather see the parties open up the power spigots instead. I mean I'd only believe it after the fact, but sure, bring it on.

[Evening Star]

If he is in indeed talking provincially then I would like to see a citation backing that up. I have only ever heard of NDP running various provinces into the ground, however I have never seen stats on it.

Here's one fwiw: http://www.progressive-economics.ca/2011/04/29/fiscal-record-of-canadian-political-parties/. (I feel that it would be much stronger if the author gave a chart that looked at provincial governments only. Still, NDP governments in SK and MB have been widely known to have regularly turned balanced budgets.)

[Argus]

The reality is Harper cut tax, mostly the hst but also corporate, and into deficit we went for all of his reign so far. Now of course no one likes paying taxes, but services, if we wat them, have to be paid for somehow. Harpers stewardship over the economy speaks for itself, all you have to do is look at the real numbers.

From what I have been reading from economists, and my own memory of economics courses at college, corporate taxes are a very bad way, perhaps the worst way of supporting the government. Instead you should tax consumption. Because everyone has to either spend or invest that money, and you want to encourage investment. Same goes for companies. They either invest it or spend it ,and you want to encourage investment. In that light, Harpe's cuts to the GST were a bad idea but I've never said he was always right, and never defended them at the time. Cutting the GST was for political purposes, not economics.

Nevertheless, Harper's stewardship has been fairly decent, though not exemplary. And the claim the deficit was forced on him can't honestly be denied given he world recession was not his fault nor foreseeable, and given the response of the opposition parties at the time.

[Argus]

Thats a re write of history. Ignatieff had just taken his place and was not about to for a coalition to take down the government. Harper wet on a spending spree as a result, and the rest is history.

This is absolute nonsense. How is it you people can whine about him subverting democracy by proroguing parliament, and complain about how he labelled the NDP/Liberal move to form a collation as wrong, and at the same time pretend it all never happened?