Truth and Reconciliation... Legitimacy

[eyeball]

No, and why would you settle for any less?

[Accountability Now]

No, and why would you settle for any less?

Perhaps I wasn't clear. They can have their own autonomy as in their own countries if they want to separate....just like Quebec could do the same. But when it comes down to it they won't separate because that would mean giving up a heck of a lot.

But I'm guessing that's not what you mean by saying "settle for any less"....or is it?

[Argus]

Perhaps, but the loss of native culture(s) would have been even worse.

I can't imagine an America without the original people and their belief systems.

Why can't you imagine it? The original people and their belief systems are virtually absent from American society and life. Most Americans know little or nothing about them nor ever encounter them.

[Argus]

I agree. They need jurisdiction autonomy and nationhood poured into their system. Money without power is just money.

He who pays the piper calls the tune. It was ever thus. No nation can exist which can't support itself.

[eyeball]

Perhaps I wasn't clear. They can have their own autonomy as in their own countries if they want to separate....just like Quebec could do the same. But when it comes down to it they won't separate because that would mean giving up a heck of a lot.

But I'm guessing that's not what you mean by saying "settle for any less"....or is it?

I suspect we're the one's who'll refuse to separate. I would expect they'll ask that title over crown lands be returned, privately held property notwithstanding until such time as it's bought back and repatriated so to speak through that process.

[eyeball]

He who pays the piper calls the tune. It was ever thus. No nation can exist which can't support itself.

Which is why they want their country back.

[Accountability Now]

I suspect we're the one's who'll refuse to separate. I would expect they'll ask that title over crown lands be returned, privately held property notwithstanding until such time as it's bought back and repatriated so to speak through that process.

So what you're saying is they would want back 90% of Canada. Good luck with that. The reality is the only way this would ever work is if all 630 First Nations agreed on what land including their reserves was actually used and work out some agreement based on that. With that said, the vast majority of these First Nations would be completely bordered by Canada and therefore would be subject to high duties for any exports leaving. As such there really is no way for this to work which is something they already know.

[Je suis Omar]

So what you're saying is they would want back 90% of Canada. Good luck with that. The reality is the only way this would ever work is if all 630 First Nations agreed on what land including their reserves was actually used and work out some agreement based on that. With that said, the vast majority of these First Nations would be completely bordered by Canada and therefore would be subject to high duties for any exports leaving. As such there really is no way for this to work which is something they already know.

What you are trying to say is that the only way this would ever work is if First Nations somehow acquired the power to forcibly take the land and commit genocide like the white folks did.

Where is that right wing meme about personal responsibility, how crucial it is for people to be held accountable for their actions. In addition to the TRC, and in keeping with those high principles, rule of law and accountability, an independent prosecutor should be set up to charge all those still living with the obvious crimes against humanity, the genocidal crimes committed by government and, god almighty, the major churches.

[Je suis Omar]

With that said, the vast majority of these First Nations would be completely bordered by Canada and therefore would be subject to high duties for any exports leaving. As such there really is no way for this to work which is something they already know.

Then after this theoretical event takes place, and justice has been served, "Canada" wouldn't want to abide by the principles of free enterprise, another big right wing meme of convenience.

Conservative white man speak with forked tongue.

[jbg]

jbg and bush_Cheney ... Are you familiar with the Indian boarding schools in the US?

Perhaps you could inform us, for comparison?

.

I'm assuming they are similarly atrocious.

[Je suis Omar]

I'm assuming they are similarly atrocious.

Instead of always assuming, have you ever considered something really crazy, like maybe researching?

[Accountability Now]

What you are trying to say is that the only way this would ever work is if First Nations somehow acquired the power to forcibly take the land and commit genocide like the white folks did.

Nope...not trying to say that at all. Would you like another turn?

Where is that right wing meme about personal responsibility, how crucial it is for people to be held accountable for their actions. In addition to the TRC, and in keeping with those high principles, rule of law and accountability, an independent prosecutor should be set up to charge all those still living with the obvious crimes against humanity, the genocidal crimes committed by government and, god almighty, the major churches.

I have already answered you on this but apparently you didn't get it or didn't like my answer. The Government has apologized and paid out compensation in the amount of billions (and there may be more to come). The government only played a part with the major part being carried out by the Churches. If you want to sue them then go for it and let the courts handle it. I really don't care. These are the same people that verbally abused my mom and her family for not speaking English and tortured my friends relatives because they tried using their left hand to write. The bottom line is that many people were abused by the same system. I'm not saying to the same level....but the system was the way it was.

Of course, you can't confuse the effects of residential schools versus natives giving up the land as those were two separate things. One can't romanticize about what the outcome 'would' have been for the natives if treaties weren't made and the land wasn't ceded. I'm not saying that the British would have taken over all the land on their own but you certainly have to take into account the Americans were coming on in full force and the Spanish were still pushing on the West Coast. At the end of the day, it is fairly certain to say that this land would still be dominated by Europeans. That was going to happen no matter what...but the residential schools may have had a different outcome if say the Americans were in power.

Then after this theoretical event takes place, and justice has been served, "Canada" wouldn't want to abide by the principles of free enterprise, another big right wing meme of convenience.

Canada would work with these countries like it works with any other country. Establish trade agreements, border control, and extradition agreements. These new countries would also have to set up protocol for national defense, human rights, policing and other self government items that would bury them in costs. Shipping these products across another country will incur further expense and duties which companies looking to invest may consider to be too much compared to other options.

Ultimately there is lot to consider by going that route which I believe they already have. Look at the 1995 referendum in Quebec, 96% of the First Nations decided to stay in Canada. I guess they realize how good they have it.

Conservative white man speak with forked tongue.

Come on...you can throw a better personal insult than that.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Accountability Now

[Je suis Omar]

The Government has apologized and paid out compensation in the amount of billions (and there may be more to come). The government only played a part with the major part being carried out by the Churches.

Purveyors of genocide don't get off by simply apologizing. How you can advance such a ludicrous idea, twice, is breathtaking. The purveyors of genocide get way with crimes against humanity using other peoples's money! How conservative is that?

How you can advance the equally ludicrous notion that the Canadian government was an innocent bystander in all this is illustrative of your breathtaking ignorance, non pejorative sense, of course.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Je suis Omar

[Accountability Now]

Purveyors of genocide don't get off by simply apologizing. How you can advance such a ludicrous idea, twice, is breathtaking. The purveyors of genocide get way with crimes against humanity using other peoples's money! How conservative is that?

Its not genocide....no matter how many times you say it is. But go ahead....say it once more.

How you can advance the equally ludicrous notion that the Canadian government was an innocent bystander in all this is illustrative of your breathtaking ignorance, non pejorative sense, of course.

Please for the love of everything holy.....try to read and comprehend what I wrote. I did not say they were an "innocent bystander", rather I said they played a part but not as big of a part as the Churches. Would you like me to spell this out in larger font or a different color so that you can understand it?

[Accountability Now]

I'm curious Omar....I saw you posted something about how I should be ashamed of myself because my family and relatives were also abused by the Church in a similar fashion.....yet you quickly deleted it.

Why should I be ashamed?

[jacee]

Its not genocide....no matter how many times you say it is. But go ahead....say it once more.

"With intent to destroy in whole or in part, a people ..."

Forcibly removing children into another culture ...

Please for the love of everything holy.....try to read and comprehend what I wrote. I did not say they were an "innocent bystander", rather I said they played a part but not as big of a part as the Churches. Would you like me to spell this out in larger font or a different color so that you can understand it?

No I get that too.

The churches sent money, got it back, and used it for healing Aboriginal members of their congregations.

The Anglican church reported enrolment of 100,000.

The United and Catholic churches didn't report enrolment.

The churches have the enrolment/death records.

The TRC has some now.

The Missing children project is just beginning, to inform families of the fates of missing children.

What are their names?

Where are they buried?

How did they die?

.

[Je suis Omar]

Its not genocide

What does your ungrammatical <Its> refer to?

[Je suis Omar]

Please for the love of everything holy.....

You should be ashamed of that too.

try to read and comprehend what I wrote. I did not say they were an "innocent bystander", rather I said they played a part but not as big of a part as the Churches. Would you like me to spell this out in larger font or a different color so that you can understand it?

And you don't even comprehend how vacuous your statement is. That's like saying the death camp guards were mostly responsible for the Hitler/Nazi planned Final Solution.

[Je suis Omar]

I'm curious Omar....I saw you posted something about how I should be ashamed of myself because my family and relatives were also abused by the Church in a similar fashion.....yet you quickly deleted it.

Why should I be ashamed?

I most certainly did not intentionally delete it.

You should be ashamed of trying to equate your family's rather insignificant suffering with that of a planned genocide.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Je suis Omar

[Accountability Now]

What does your ungrammatical <Its> refer to?

That's the extent of your argument now? Going after grammatical mistakes....yup...you clearly have nothing.

That's like saying the death camp guards were mostly responsible for the Hitler/Nazi planned Final Solution.

That's not at all alike....no matter how much you try to twist it. But keep trying.

I most certainly did not intentionally delete it.

Hey...just step up and own your statements. It was there and then gone. I get it...you said and then realized the trash coming from your mouth was just pure idiocy. Hence the deletion.

You should be ashamed of trying to equate your family's rather insignificant suffering with that of a planned genocide.

Again you failed to comprehend the English language. Here....I'll highlight what I said showing that I am not 'equating' the two. Or would you prefer that I provide you a definition for equate?

The bottom line is that many people were abused by the same system. I'm not saying to the same level....but the system was the way it was.

The people of the Church were mean, strict and hell bent on enforcing what they thought was the only right way. With that said, I would be curious to see the stats (if they are available) on how many of these residential school deaths resulted from murder versus extenuating circumstances (ie being exposed to diseases like TB).

As many times as you want to say it....aggressive assimilation is not genocide.

[Accountability Now]

"With intent to destroy in whole or in part, a people ..."

Forcibly removing children into another culture ...

Did the parents of these children oblige with the mandatory rule that all children must attend?

[jacee]

I most certainly did not intentionally delete it.

You should be ashamed of trying to equate your family's rather insignificant suffering with that of a planned genocide.

Gonna disagree.

Church institutions have carried out atrocities to subjugate many people to their purposes.

It's all valid.

.

[jacee]

Did the parents of these children oblige with the mandatory rule that all children must attend?

You can look up people's accounts on the TRC website perhaps?

Either we take your kid, or you resist and you go to jail and we take your kid ... ?

.

Edited June 1, 2015 by jacee

[Je suis Omar]

Gonna disagree.

Church institutions have carried out atrocities to subjugate many people to their purposes.

It's all valid.

.

And I fully support your right to disagree, Jacee.

However, these "atrocities", below, don't come anywhere close to being called atrocities. "verbal abuse", undefined "torture", do not come anywhere close to genocide, which, you must note, AN, unbelievably, continues to deny that it existed.

AN: These are the same people that verbally abused my mom and her family for not speaking English and tortured my friends relatives because they tried using their left hand to write. The bottom line is that many people were abused by the same system. I'm not saying to the same level....but the system was the way it was.

[Accountability Now]

You can look up people's accounts on the TRC website perhaps?

Either we take your kid, or you resist and you go to jail and we take your kid ... ?

.

The only mandatory thing in place was that First Nations kids had to attend school (day, industrial or residential). The problem is that in some areas the only thing offered were residential. Not sure if there was an option to move to an area with the other options. It's estimated that 30% of First Nations children went to residential schools with the other 70% going to the others