Je suis Omar Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 Ghomeshi was from Toronto was he not....that would explain a lot....no better enviroment than Toronto for any predator to thrive. Do you think Toronto is better than, say, Seattle, home to Ted Bundy and Gary Ridgway, or Chicago, home of John Wayne Gacy, or a Canadian military base? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 To clarify, its "sexual misconduct", which is inclusive of everything from foul language, rumor mongering/talking about another member in a sexual way or even having a Playboy pin-up displayed......and of course the actual report didn't suggest it to be a major problem, that was the CBC/Macleans hit-jobs prior to the reports release. Sounds like the same kind of sweeping crap under the rug type thinking that got Lawson, and the military this huge black eye they now suffer. I expect the private oversight body will have to flow from the serious nature of whats in the report. It seems the military cant take care of itself these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 To clarify, its "sexual misconduct", which is inclusive of everything from foul language, rumor mongering/talking about another member in a sexual way or even having a Playboy pin-up displayed......and of course the actual report didn't suggest it to be a major problem, that was the CBC/Macleans hit-jobs prior to the reports release. So the numbers are inflated to suggest there is a problem.....it looks like this is becoming a policitical football, to score some votes on the backs of our soldiers. And Canadians are looking at someone or something to piont fingers at, imagine our soldiers using foul language, nobody said anything when live combat footage was shown on the news or u tube.....imigine our soldiers turning their heads looking at any female and commenting nice ass...god forbid there is any pin ups in places like military vehicles, tents or trenches....because that would be just unCanadian .....and yet nobody is pointing out that the content on TV, cable shit look at the game of thrones, or Spartacus.....how many Canadains watch those shows.....how many Canadians are guilty of the above crimes .....we truly do have a problem.....perhaps our skins are not as thick as we thought ...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 Do you think Toronto is better than, say, Seattle, home to Ted Bundy and Gary Ridgway, or Chicago, home of John Wayne Gacy, or a Canadian military base? My post was directed at Black dog, I was responding to his baseless post, he happens to be from that area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 So the numbers are inflated to suggest there is a problem.....it looks like this is becoming a policitical football, to score some votes on the backs of our soldiers. To an extent, but what sells more papers? Much like the media depicting rampant racism throughout the Forces over Somalia... And Canadians are looking at someone or something to piont fingers at, imagine our soldiers using foul language, nobody said anything when live combat footage was shown on the news or u tube.....imigine our soldiers turning their heads looking at any female and commenting nice ass...god forbid there is any pin ups in places like military vehicles, tents or trenches....because that would be just unCanadian .....and yet nobody is pointing out that the content on TV, cable shit look at the game of thrones, or Spartacus.....how many Canadains watch those shows.....how many Canadians are guilty of the above crimes .....we truly do have a problem.....perhaps our skins are not as thick as we thought ...... I wouldn't paint all Canadians with the same brush, just certain elements, but as we've talked about before, support for the Forces is a mile wide, but an inch deep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 Rape in the Military. That was the headline on a Macleans cover in 1998one of four cover stories that year stemming from a nine-month investigation into disturbing behaviour in the Canadian Forces. Now, 16 years later, Macleans and its sister publication, Lactualité, have come together to publish another months-long investigation into the sexual violence that still plagues our military. Lactualité reporters Noémi Mercier and Alec Castonguay talked to dozens of victims, attended court martials, culled statistics and documents under Access to Information, and visited bases across the country and Afghanistan. This story is the result of their investigation: Lise Gauthier doesnt have enough fingers to count the number of times she was raped, assaulted or sexually harassed by fellow soldiers. The 51-year-old, from Sherbrooke, Que., spent half her life in the Canadian Forces. When she signed up at 18, she was young and idealistic, and couldnt wait to get her hands on the engine of a fighter plane. For the next 25 years, she wore the blue uniform of the Royal Canadian Air Force proudly, like it was a second skin, convinced she was serving a greater cause. Yet the whole time, she was actually waging a private war. And the battlefield was her own body. I think about the attacks all the time, 24 hours a day. Theres no escape. I wish no one had to go through what I did. I wouldnt wish it on my worst enemy. You stop living. Youre in survival mode. The best you can do is breathe, she says, rocking herself in the solarium of the house she shares with her partner, her eyes welling with tears. The first time it happened, Gauthier had been serving for barely a year. It was October 1982. A bus driver raped her in a bedroom on the Saint-Hubert military base. He grabbed her by the throat so hard it left fingerprints on her neck. She will never forget him whispering in her ear: If you talk to anyone about this, youre dead. http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/our-militarys-disgrace/ And while this story and those just like it are tragic, those Responsable should have been brought to justice, and I don't think you'll find anyone here that is defending those Responsable for those attacks. However measures are already in place , many different measure I should say, but they have to be used in order to work. One must trust the system to work. And it does work it has no other outcome, if there is no response from the chain of command then soldiers are free to take it to the next level, all the way to the CDS if need be.....and trust me if the CDS knows then he minister knows.....action will be taken, and while some of your existing chain of command may not like you for it DND tough shit.,when the Chain takes action it must be followed to the tee, no questions. But like I said it needs to be used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted May 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 Chain of command works when orders given are followed without argument. Unfortunately it also works when those in power over others begin to use that power for personal gain. I believe that rape or demeaning of women is not a result of arousal but of forced power over others. "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" was the conclusion of Lord Acton. He was right in part. I agree more with George Bernard Shaw; "Power does not corrupt men; fools, however, if they get into a position of power, corrupt power." In the rank system every rank has power over those below him. That is not to be questioned or challenged - a command structure cannot work any other way. That system is ripe for abuse and unfortunately is abused at times. As I have stated before, those in the military have nothing to apologize for. The system will evolve and adapt as long as those in leadership accept the reality of the problems with sexual misconduct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 To an extent, but what sells more papers? Much like the media depicting rampant racism throughout the Forces over Somalia... I wouldn't paint all Canadians with the same brush, just certain elements, but as we've talked about before, support for the Forces is a mile wide, but an inch deep. I guess I should of explained it in detail , your right I did paint all Canadians with the same brush, not my intention I should have said there is a lot of Canadians that believe everything that is printed or spews out of the media and take it as fact, without putting it all into context and hearing both sides of the story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 Chain of command works when orders given are followed without argument. Unfortunately it also works when those in power over others begin to use that power for personal gain. I believe that rape or demeaning of women is not a result of arousal but of forced power over others. "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" was the conclusion of Lord Acton. He was right in part. I agree more with George Bernard Shaw; "Power does not corrupt men; fools, however, if they get into a position of power, corrupt power." In the rank system every rank has power over those below him. That is not to be questioned or challenged - a command structure cannot work any other way. That system is ripe for abuse and unfortunately is abused at times. As I have stated before, those in the military have nothing to apologize for. The system will evolve and adapt as long as those in leadership accept the reality of the problems with sexual misconduct. What you are forgetting is that there is room for questioning orders, soldiers are not robots, but men and women, there is a built safety factor that any order must be legal in every sense of the law. Personal gain is unlawful, and all that needs to be done is for someone to report it. Which is half the problem, for ever reason, but for things to change or those guilty of abusing the system to be removed or stopped, it needs to be reported. Not just a problem with the CF but throughout our nation, where any form of chain of command is present. Don"t get me wrong there is a lot of examples that a soldier can not question orders, providing those orders are legal to start with. A good leader will ensure that those guide lines are followed before issuing orders, if they are not legal then it is every soldiers responsabilty to question them, and disobey and report them ASAP. A major sticking piont in the war crimes trails in nurnburg, soldiers are held responsible for all their actions and can not use the excuse that they were just obeying orders. And that is part of the problem I am having , the definition of sexual assault, it does not just encompass actual sexual assault in the physical terms, but also includes colourful language, inappropriate remarks , and lude pictures that some may find offensive. And this is just my opinion, that these should be in a category all by themselfs, and should be able to fix them , not in court, but rather as adults or through some sort of mediation. I don't think it is a fair report these lesser charges that are added to boast the actual physical sexual assault case numbers, I think it is unfair to the victims as well, not to mention the instutions involved. Maybe I am out of the times on this issue, but is there a comparison to say sex assault the physical type and the other lesser crimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted May 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 (edited) As to "soft" sexual misconduct, I believe the new standard is what is acceptable in the public sector. When inappropriate pictures, profanity, sexual innuendo etc. takes place then those offended go to their supervisor and human resources people. It may still be considered an insignificant issue by the military but certainly not insignificant in the public workplace. I believe that the report indicated that these "soft" examples, when reported to the chain of command are written off as insignificant - as they have been in the past. I get the feeling from some of Derek 2.0 responses that he too feels that these are minor and not worth processing. I remember a time when I would have agreed with him but things have changed drastically. I believe that the military is now considered a "workplace" and all the recent changes to acceptable behaviour in the workplace should also be applied to the military. I am of two minds on this. I know that in the public, in some social activities, especially where alcohol is involved, the language is often blue - instigated by females. I would assume that similar conditions could exist on bases. I am also not sure that an atmosphere of camaraderie - so essential to a good working troop - can be attained when the males do not know what is acceptable banter and what is not. I think it will take time as long as it is addressed. Edited May 6, 2015 by Big Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 When you read the report what were your first impressions? Did you think it clearly identified the entire issue so that at first glance you understood it entirely? The reason I ask is because I did'nt, it failed to give the proper definition of sexual assault, and all that it included, it failed to give or make it's piont by listing the numbers of each catagory within the definition, such as physical sexual assault, inappropriate language etc...it also failed to mention what cases DND has taken action on and the results of those actions.....in othe words it failed to put everything into context. What it did do was have the public gasp in horror, eroding the trust of the entire dept and classifying most that serve within it as a bunch of over charged sexual idiots out of control... And yet there are a lot of cases that DND has taken action, the largest being Col Russels case, charged with murder and rape he is immediately released form the forces and handed over to the federal courts. This case shows a few things, one that the Chain of Command is not impervious to the law as had been suggested, that the old boys club was no where to be found in this case as also suggested. The major in CFB Wainwright, charged with inappropriate touching , was charged, and demoted to Capt...for the accusation of grabbing another women's breast. I bring this up because he was only a major but he was still a commander of a unit, part of the boys club, and well up the chain of command, it shows that if these i incidents are reported they actioned ..... There are other cases as well , such as the Cpl in Petawawa who is still under investigation by the OPP, plus others that the media is not aware of,. The report also fails to mention that this whole report was asked for by the CDS, the report and media keep repeating that this is a coverup attempt by DND to down play all these events, and yet it was started by the Military itself, who does that ask for an inquiry only to implicate itself come on..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 So other industries are going to follow suit , construction sites will dismiss workers for whistling at girls, gawking at pretty girls , or rating them on a scale of one to 10. What about other industries the oil patch, or lumber camps, mining operations, all of these industries are already following good work place practices. I bring these up not to cause deflection but to state a fact things are not as perfect as the other work places wish they were . Which brings me back to my original piont, this is not just a military problem, but rather a national one... My oldest daughter is in university, before she left I gave her a can of mace and showed her some self defence techniques. My other daughter joined the military, I never thought twice about that decision, infact I was relieved about her career choice. Am sure Derek feels the same way. Some people seem to think that the military is a breeding ground for bad behaviour, and while the military complex is not perfect part of being a professional soldier is to up hold higher standards when ever possible, and if the nation wants its military to be kinder and gentler, with perfect manners and perfect English that is what it will get. But at the end of the day will it truly change Canadian citizens minds about their military, I think not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Je suis Omar Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Army Guy: part of being a professional soldier is to up hold higher standards when ever possible How many military people are you aware of who refused to aid and support the illegal invasion of Afghanistan, Army Guy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Ghomeshi was from Toronto was he not....that would explain a lot....no better enviroment than Toronto for any predator to thrive. Seriously? You are comparing Toronto to the Dnd for predators? Do you have cites to back this up? I suppose you would apply this to any large city in Canada. Do you not see how absurd this is? I would feel far more safe walking in the streets of Vancouver, Montreal or Toronto than being stationed in a base of the Dnd. Of course I am speaking from a female perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Je suis Omar Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 (edited) Army Guy: So other industries are going to follow suit , construction sites will dismiss workers for whistling at girls, gawking at pretty girls , or rating them on a scale of one to 10. What about other industries the oil patch, or lumber camps, mining operations, all of these industries are already following good work place practices. I bring these up not to cause deflection but to state a fact things are not as perfect as the other work places wish they were . Which brings me back to my original piont, this is not just a military problem, but rather a national one... I appreciate your point and of course you are right. I know where you are coming from, I grew up in a time where society was not as careful as it is today. Many probably think we've gone too far, we're too sissified. But would you like to have grown up female, having that constant fear that you could be raped, sexually assaulted, even just verbally sexually assaulted. How will you feel if your university bound daughter one day says to you, "Dad, I wish you had given the mace and talk to my little sister." It's happening in the military, and yes, for sure, it can happen anywhere. I, for one, hope that neither of your daughters ever has to suffer even the slightest, the tiniest sexual indignity to their bodies or their minds. Edited May 8, 2015 by Je suis Omar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 Seriously? You are comparing Toronto to the Dnd for predators? Do you have cites to back this up? I suppose you would apply this to any large city in Canada. Do you not see how absurd this is? I would feel far more safe walking in the streets of Vancouver, Montreal or Toronto than being stationed in a base of the Dnd. Of course I am speaking from a female perspective. I suspect that traits similar to Jians are what led to the events upon which this recent report is based. The power he seemed to wield due to his celebrity status could well equal that within the military that thrives due to outdated attitudes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 How many military people are you aware of who refused to aid and support the illegal invasion of Afghanistan, Army Guy? None, our military is so small it would be impossible not to aid or support the Afganistan mission in one way or the other, was there soldiers who refused to take part in the direct operations in Afghanistan due to moral obligations yes. But those numbers were very small. Does this reflect on our how professional our military members are, please explain. The whole debate on wether this conflict is illegal or not is still ongoing, there are plenty of online sites authored by some legal begals that say yes it was. They quote that art 5 does not cover the U.S. invasion, because the terrorist " bin ladies groups " were not considered a state actor, but rather a group within the state. And yet there is plenty of info out there that says other wise, That Bin ladins group of thugs were in fact part of the the talibans military force, used to fight and keep the peace within the country, taking out policitical opposition,and solving other policitical problems for the Taliban through the use of force. There is also the UN portion of this mess, the UN did not issue a condemnation of this mission, in fact they became part of it directly after the invasion by setting up a UN sponsored coalition cantered in Kabul, which was to start setting up the next government, it would be here that Canada would begin it' s second part of the Afghanistan mission under the UN mission. During the initial phases of the war it was very popular , not only in Canada but through out the western world, I can remember boarding the aircraft to leave on my first tour and there was thousands of Canadains lining the fences to show us off, and cheer .....once we returned it was the same 3 am we began our long bus journey back to Pet, and the streets were lined with thousands carrying banners welcoming us home, the media coverage was always positive, it was well supported in Canada. So, why would our soldiers even consider that this conflict was illegal, it was approved by DND and it's legal staff, the government, even the UN was getting in on the action, top all that off with the backing of the people and that was enough for Canada's soldiers to start volunteering to fight, by the thousands.....if that makes us unprofessional then I think I would disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 Seriously? You are comparing Toronto to the Dnd for predators? Do you have cites to back this up? I suppose you would apply this to any large city in Canada. Do you not see how absurd this is? I would feel far more safe walking in the streets of Vancouver, Montreal or Toronto than being stationed in a base of the Dnd. Of course I am speaking from a female perspective. Seriously.......unfortuntily yes, as serious as a heart attack. Toronto has had 729 police reported sexual assualt cases in 2014. It should be noted that these numbers do not include any cases of colourful remarks,pin up pictures, as were included in DND's numbers which reported only 5 physical sexual assualt cases for the same time. The link for this is on Toronto police services There has been 7979 report sexual cases in Ontario Link ...Ont women's directorate....women.on.ca Across the nation there has been 472 000 sexual assualt cases that have been reported The link for this . Women against violence against women WAVAW.ca National post did an article called never reported....it also quotes 472 000 cases of sexual assualt in Canada. BC has the safest place according to stats can, and BC justice system where it says 1 out of every 17 women will be raped or sexually assaulted in BC every year. Is it absurd now, . What I find disturbing is that you as a women are not aware of these stats, and the threat you face. I' d be curious to know what you've based your low opinion of our nations military. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Je suis Omar Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 None, our military is so small it would be impossible not to aid or support the Afganistan mission in one way or the other, was there soldiers who refused to ... . To help reduce thread drift, this has been moved to a new thread, http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/24481-war-crimes-afghanistan/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted May 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2015 I watched Question Period today. Looks like Defense Minister Kenny is going to give Lawson a rap on the knuckles. Kenny has guaranteed an impartial (out of chain of command) and independent process to deal with accusations of sexual misconduct in the military. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted July 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2015 Looks like this new commander is serious about his mandate on sexual harassment; http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/canadian-armed-forces-member-charged-with-sex-related-offences-1.2491271 Seems about time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted July 28, 2015 Report Share Posted July 28, 2015 Looks like this new commander is serious about his mandate on sexual harassment; http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/canadian-armed-forces-member-charged-with-sex-related-offences-1.2491271 Seems about time. What makes you say that? As your link states, the investigation started in April of this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted July 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2015 Many investigations take place. Some result in charges, others do not. It may just be a coincidence that the results of an investigation from April result in an announced prosecution of charges a few days after a new commander is in pace - one who has stated that sexual harassment will be his first priority. I do not believe in coincidences. For many years, I have been suspect of the way the military handles internal problems. I am glad to see that the process is changing for the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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