US Citizens Are Coming, US Citizens Are Coming

[maplesyrup]

Parrish: U.S. voters 'out of step'

Canada needs to make sure its doors are wide open for US citizens who feel they can no longer tolerate living in their country.

We have lots of room up here, eh!

[maplesyrup]

Website propositions disappointed Democrats

This has the potential to become a huge issue. When I googled it this morning I received about 150 hits of different newpaper articles about it.

[Shakeyhands]

Thats funny.. not sure why they would go for any of the people in Alberta though.. thats just right wing Bushland North isn't it?

[daniel]

Q: What do Americans have that Canadians don't?

A: A place to escape to.

[Black Dog]

If disgruntled progressive Americans want to come to Canada to escape the clutches of the Republitalibans, I have just one thng to say:

"Bring 'em on."

[Newfie Canadian]

I'll start with Parrish.

She should keep her mouth in check unless or until she arrives in a position to be representing the government or people of Canada.

I didn't appreciate that nut Buchannan mouthing off about Canada (Soviet Canuckistan et al), and I'm sure Americans don't appreciate her crap. It's their country, let them vote for who they want, without prejudice. As a Canadian, I could say the same for the electorate of Mississauga--Erindale returning that nut job, but I respect their right to vote for who they want.

Everyone has a right to their opinion, but when you're in public office and microphones are almost always present, you have an obligation to consider the good of the country.

EDIT- Martin said in a scrum

She speaks neither for the government, nor does she speak for the caucus

Good for him.

I would support anyone who wanted to come to Canada to try to legitimately better their lives, but I have some doubts and issues with people who would abandon their country because they don't like their democratically elected government. Do what everyone else does and wait to vote in the next election. If they feel that the government of the US is going where they don't want it to go and it would be the same if Kerry had won, come on up.

What happens to all these people if a Democrat is elected in 2008? Do they go home? Do they stay?

Wouldn't it be a hoot if they came here and a few months later we elected a Conservative government?

Edited November 4, 2004 by Newfie Canadian

[Black Dog]

I would support anyone who wanted to come to Canada to try to legitimately better their lives, but I have some doubts and issues with people who would abandon their country because they don't like their democratically elected government. Do what everyone else does and wait to vote in the next election. If they feel that the government of the US is going where they don't want it to go and it would be the same if Kerry had won, come on up.

Why? Aespite the blather about Bush receiving a "clear mandate" from the people, the fact is nearly 50 per cent of Americans did not vote for the man. So those individuals, who have already endured four years of a regime they disagree with simply have to suck it up for another four? I can certainly see why someone in that situation would choose flight.

It seems the U.S. is swimming against the tide of modernity. While the rest of the world's democracies move toward the centre-left to embrace progressive values and cast aside religion, the U.S. is heading the other way, embracing reactionary social policies in the guise of "traditional values", xenophobia masquerading as patriotism and large-scale corruption stemming from the ongoing merger of state and corporate interests. It seems pretty hopeless.

Finally, canada has a long history of providing refuge to Americans fleeing oppression, from the Loyalists to the underground railroad to Vietnam war resisters. It's a tradition we should continue to embrace.

Wouldn't it be a hoot if they came here and a few months later we elected a Conservative government?

As much as I dislike the CPC, I'll take our brand of regressive conservatives over the Republican protofascists.

[maplesyrup]

Finally, canada has a long history of providing refuge to Americans fleeing oppression, from the Loyalists to the underground railroad to Vietnam war resisters. It's a tradition we should continue to embrace.

And we will.

Plans are already being discussed how we can be of assistance.

[Newfie Canadian]

So, do we agree on Parrish?

As much as I dislike the CPC, I'll take our brand of regressive conservatives over the Republican protofascists.

I can't argue that. The current incarnation of the Republic party is severely right, making our CPC look left. It's funny, one of the knocks against them (as put forth by the Liberals) in the last election was that they were too much like Bush.

Finally, canada has a long history of providing refuge to Americans fleeing oppression

Oppression, BD? That seems a bit strong for what has been suggested. It's not like the Bush administration is sending out death squads and rounding up the citizenry and throwing them all in jail for no reason..

It seems the U.S. is swimming against the tide of modernity

I agree with this.

If they want to come to Canada because they value the Canadian way of life, they are willing to embrace what Canada stands for, and they want to try to live here and make themselves better, groovy.

But if they want a surrogate home until a Democrat takes the White House or the Congress, they should stay where they are, IMHO.

[Guest eureka]

You cannot just say that it is their country, let them vote as they like.Whoever they vote for affects the world now and they run on a policy of interfering with the world. Therefere, the world has every right to be heard in America.

Bin Laden would agree with that, I am sure. He helped get Bush reelected and is rubbing his hands now as the ranks of the terorists grow with every day in the Bushes.

Too, American governments are not democratically elected - least of all this one. For democracy to happen, it is essential to have an informed public and there is no more ignorant public than that in America. They are lied to daily and always have been. This administration has raised deception to an art form. Bush did it again today when he saif in his own inarticulate way, that he invaded Iraq to make America secure.

Why should freedom minded Americans not emigrate to Canada - or to Europe? Even is they should survive the next four years and bring about a Democratic victory there will be little improvement in the American social climate for a generation or more. Did a lot of our immigrants come gere for similar reasons, and many for less cause.. Freedom and democracy will not be available in the USA for a long time. It is a pariah state now for good reason. I would be repearing Black Dog to write of the corruption and social ills and its international errors so I will leave them.

I think that if I knew more about the Internet, I would start a site entitled something like:

Promote Freedom and Democracy: Impeach Bush.

[Newfie Canadian]

the world has every right to be heard in America.

I disagree. The world has a vested interest surely, but I don't think we have the right to interfere with an election and then chide or berate the American electorate for making a choice that they think is in their best interest. Do we vote for who we think is going to be the best for the rest of the world? Of course not, we vote for who we think will do the best for us, and I'd be insulted if someone from another country told me I made the wrong choice for them.

For democracy to happen, it is essential to have an informed public

If that is the case, I would argue there isn't a democracy on the face of the Earth. The public never knows the whole truth about anything. And I would also argue that that is universal.

there will be little improvement in the American social climate for a generation or more

Maybe, and if that is the case, some people may feel comfortable in moving, and if it is the best choice for them, so be it.

[Hugo]

The public never knows the whole truth about anything. And I would also argue that that is universal.

Perhaps, but the general public is also incredibly cunning, more so than most realise. They may not figure out the intricacies of every system, but the citizenry will always figure out how to work within and how to cheat that system.

For an example, consider the American democratic system. It was designed with checks and balances, but the founding fathers grossly underestimated the cunning of people within that system, who learnt that they could skew the political machine all over the place with lobbying and special interest groups as early as George Washington's heyday, who learnt that they could work around the limits on government power within the Constitution and wrangle all sorts of statist machinations unthought of by the founding fathers, and so forth.

For another, think about inflation. Central banks this century have consistently created inflation by increasing the credit supply, knowing that this alleviates unemployment only by lowering real wages and hoping that the masses would never notice that their real wages had been lowered. And, of course, they did, with the result that everything under the sun is index-linked.

Plans are already being discussed how we can be of assistance.

I had heard that Immigration Canada advised that American immigrants will be treated like any others. As an immigrant, let me tell you that the immigration process is very long, very expensive and frequently infuriating.

I can't see a great exodus of Americans any time soon. Alec Baldwin vowed to leave and didn't, and he has wealth, which makes everything easier. Imagine being a working-class guy with a job, a wife with a job, a mortgage, three kids in school, friends, a church, a big-screen TV on finance, two cars on lease... is he really going to give all that up and move to the Great White North just because Bush won the election, especially considering that an America under Kerry would be practically indistinguishable from one under Bush?

The only people likely to flee are people who would be better off in Canada, those without medical coverage, on low incomes or unemployed, low-skilled and so forth, and I'm not sure how the Canadian economy will cope with a sudden influx of needy and largely unproductive people. And as I said, America under Kerry wouldn't look any different, so I can't see the numbers of those kinds of immigrants increasing at any huge rate.

The only other group I can see coming in large numbers will be draft-dodgers after Selective Service starts coming into its own (and the Democrats favour it too, so that can hardly be laid at Bush's door exclusively), and if an American draft-dodger turned up at my door I'd take him in. I'll try my best to help anyone who asks me to help them flee slavery.

As to the rest, I'm in favour of open borders and no immigration controls, so let them all come. But before we open the borders, we have to abolish welfare and all the other stuff I usually complain about. You fellows all know my score by now.

[Guest eureka]

I would agre that there is not a democracy on the face of the earth. At least that there is none that I know of. There are, however, many nations that are closer to democracy than is the USA. Canada is one and Britain another.

The nations that I think of as somewhat democratic are all of those where we see a free and uncontrolled press - or media. It is not for nothing that the Press is called the Fourth Estate. That "estate is very much controlled in the US.

Am I to understand that you believe that we should not "interfere" in US elections but that it is reasonable for the US to interfere in the elections in other countries? It has been doing that for a long, long time. Not only has it interfered, it has imposed political regimes and picked candidates for some countries.The difference now is that it is overt.

Now, the USA is imposing "regime change" by force or threat. It is imposing its idea of the form of government other nations should have and it is handpicking the leadership. It so graciously and generously allows voting for candidates who are propped up by American power. In a couple of cases that we know of, but I am sure that few of the American public are, these are candidates who have been on the American payroll for years. In one case, a former CIA operative.

Freedom and Democracy are alien concepts to Bush et al or they would begin at home.

[caesar]

The only people likely to flee are people who would be better off in Canada, those without medical coverage, on low incomes or unemployed, low-skilled and so forth, and I'm not sure how the Canadian economy will cope with a sudden influx of needy and largely unproductive people. And as I said, America under Kerry wouldn't look any different, so I can't see the numbers of those kinds of immigrants increasing at any huge rate.

Don't count on it. A friend and customer of mine A duel citizen had over a 100 emails today from American friends seeking advice on coming to Canada and even a few enquiries from strangers about working here. He owns a company that does work for out courts. big buck jobs.

[kimmy]

Why? Aespite the blather about Bush receiving a "clear mandate" from the people, the fact is nearly 50 per cent of Americans did not vote for the man. So those individuals, who have already endured four years of a regime they disagree with simply have to suck it up for another four? I can certainly see why someone in that situation would choose flight.

If these Americans don't feel democracy was done when Bush was elected with 51% of the vote, how happy are they going to be in Canada? This is a country where El Presidente Chretien was given near-autocratic power 3 times over 11 years without once getting over 41% of votes.

Surely there's not much more hypocritical than Canadians questioning the legitimacy of Bush's mandate.

-kimmy

[August1991]

I wanted to avoid this thread.

The American Left is flaky. I learned this in Amsterdam, many years ago, talking to a NYC Marxist who had gone to Soviet Russia, toughed out several months, and then decided Pravda was not the truth.

On one side, we have flaky Americans. On the other side, we have inferior-complexed Canadians. The two produce a Tijuana marriage made in heaven. It'll last several weeks.

End of story.

[Guest eureka]

Actually, Kimmy, that is not a very reflective look at Canada's preferences. There are multiple parties in Canada and it is a known that the Liberals are the second choice of many who vote for other parties.

In this, they have far more than 50% support.

What might be of concern is that, if the Conservatives had received a plurality and formed a government this time, they would have come to power witha decided minority of support from anywhere.

I believe that would have been a first in Canada.

[caesar]

Oppression, BD? That seems a bit strong for what has been suggested. It's not like the Bush administration is sending out death squads and rounding up the citizenry and throwing them all in jail for no reason..

No but he is killing thousands of Iraqis without just cause and sending young Americans to die or be maimed for something that does not protect America from terroristic attacks; in fact it has made that more likely. IMHO and in many experts opinions. He has allowed the torture of prisoners of war and ignored the rights of those prisoners under Geneva conventions

To keep our criticisms of Bush to ourselves and not make waves to avoid retaliatory trade relations is a big mistake. That is how the world reacted to Hitler for a long time until things became unbearable

[maplesyrup]

I wanted to avoid this thread.

The American Left is flaky. I learned this in Amsterdam, many years ago, talking to a NYC Marxist who had gone to Soviet Russia, toughed out several months, and then decided Pravda was not the truth.

On one side, we have flaky Americans. On the other side, we have inferior-complexed Canadians. The two produce a Tijuana marriage made in heaven. It'll last several weeks.

End of story.

August1991 has been into the sauce again. You can always tell.

[maplesyrup]

Did anyone else watch Question Period today?

Two people stood up for Canada

Not Harper who went to the US and wrote articles in the Wall Street Journal attacking Canada.

Not Martin who blustered publically about Parrish's comments knowing full well she has him by the short and curlies - Parrish is untouchable.

Parrish stood up for Canada today thank goodness.

And Jack Layton stood up for Canada today attacking Canada's involvement in this insane US Star Wars plan.

I would hazzard a guess that these two people, Parrish and Layton, represent a good percentage of the Canadian population.

Outspoken Parrish doesn't seek approval

[August1991]

Parrish stood up for Canada today thank goodness.

Maple Syrup is being clueless again, you can always tell.

[Newfie Canadian]

Am I to understand that you believe that we should not "interfere" in US elections but that it is reasonable for the US to interfere in the elections in other countries?

That's not what I said, eureka.

We should not interfere in US elections, and I agree that they should not interfere either. Lowering us to that level by interfering with their free elections does not make us any better than them.

They should keep their noses out of other countries business if it doesn't concern. And so should we. And if we have to be the bigger man to do it, good for us.

[maplesyrup]

Most Canadians Oppose Missle Defence

PM Martin better remeber he has a minority government and start listening to the wishes of the Canadian people. It seems that there is more support for Parrish than the media, with their attempt to discredit her, lets on.

Keep it up Carolyn, you have a lot more backing than you perhaps realize.

[Hugo]

A friend and customer of mine A duel citizen had over a 100 emails today from American friends seeking advice on coming to Canada and even a few enquiries from strangers about working here.

Emails nothing. Until they actually make a move, it doesn't count for anything. Ask a car salesman how many people he talks to in the course of the day who don't end up buying a car, and yet they still came down to the showroom. Then ask yourself how much greater an investment of time, money, emotions and material resources it is to emigrate to a foreign land rather than to buy a new car.

[kimmy]

I'm puzzled. How do Carolyn Parrish's comments qualify as "standing up for Canada"?

-kimmy