How many Canadians think US election is rigged?

[maplesyrup]

This election smells.

Polls are still open while results in another part of the announced publically on TV.

People coming out the voting booths said Democratic but Republicans will election. How many ballot boxes were stuffed in Ohio?

International inspectors say something is rotten in the state of Denmark, er USA!

[Slavik44]

This election smells.

Polls are still open while results in another part of the announced publically on TV.

People coming out the voting booths said Democratic but Republicans will election. How many ballot boxes were stuffed in Ohio?

International inspectors say something is rotten in the state of Denmark, er USA!

and you berayted me when I said this election may be divise and create complaints, rather then solve such problems.

But woudl you care to back up your claims theat the ballot boxes in Ohio were stuffed?

[caesar]

Are you not posting this in the wrong section? This should be US/Canadian relations. I wouldn't doubt it. However, you may soon be able to call me anti American.

[Cartman]

I do not think it is rigged, but it is an antiquated system created in the 18th century that seems to be in need of change. I doubt that they would create such a system today. Imagine if each province had a winner take all formula? At least the EV went in the same direction as the total vote (even if I am not a Bush fan).

Two things do surprise me about this election though. I am surprised in this tech/communication era that it takes so long to properly count all the votes and that it is so difficult to create a more representative system of government (in the US and Canada).

[August1991]

I do not think it is rigged, but it is an antiquated system created in the 18th century that seems to be in need of change.

True. Gore should have won in 2000. Bush deserves to win this one.

It should be straight popular vote and then candidates would look for broad constituencies instead of individual states during the campaign.

[kimmy]

People coming out the voting booths said Democratic but Republicans will election. How many ballot boxes were stuffed in Ohio?

Exit polls are inherently unscientific. If you actually watched any of the coverage yesterday, you heard the commentators saying to not put much faith in the early exit polls.

1- exit polls are not a scientific sample. They don't have enough employees to put an interviewer at each polling station. They pick a few polling stations which they hope are representitive of the region as a whole.

2- exit polls are not a random sample. They reflect the prejudices of the interviewer. It's known, for instance, that interviewers would generally rather roll up on white women than black men.

3- exit polls are voluntary response. As you are leaving a polling station and somebody rolls up to ask who you voted for, you can (and should) tell them you voted for the My Foot Up Your Ass party. Many people decline to answer the questions. The people who do answer are the people who want to tell you who they prefer. This puts the whole exercise into the same world as internet polls.

4- time of day. The exit polls that showed Kerry having big leads were taken early on in the day. Who votes early in the day? Disproportionately it is stay-at-home moms, the unemployed, students. These demographics skew towards Kerry, so of course the early exit polls showed Kerry leading. If you were paying attention during the analysis, you would have heard numerous disclaimers that later exit polling would represent demographics that skew more towards Bush.

Exit polls are a joke, syrup. They give the talking heads something to blather about while they're waiting for real news to come in. Exit polls are done to find out what factors influenced voters during the final days of the election, so that the parties can better plan their campaigns next time. As a means of predicting the outcome of the election, they're worthless.

-kimmy

[ticker]

People coming out the voting booths said Democratic but Republicans will election. How many ballot boxes were stuffed in Ohio?

Exit polls are inherently unscientific. If you actually watched any of the coverage yesterday, you heard the commentators saying to not put much faith in the early exit polls.

1- exit polls are not a scientific sample. They don't have enough employees to put an interviewer at each polling station. They pick a few polling stations which they hope are representitive of the region as a whole.

2- exit polls are not a random sample. They reflect the prejudices of the interviewer. It's known, for instance, that interviewers would generally rather roll up on white women than black men.

3- exit polls are voluntary response. As you are leaving a polling station and somebody rolls up to ask who you voted for, you can (and should) tell them you voted for the My Foot Up Your Ass party. Many people decline to answer the questions. The people who do answer are the people who want to tell you who they prefer. This puts the whole exercise into the same world as internet polls.

4- time of day. The exit polls that showed Kerry having big leads were taken early on in the day. Who votes early in the day? Disproportionately it is stay-at-home moms, the unemployed, students. These demographics skew towards Kerry, so of course the early exit polls showed Kerry leading. If you were paying attention during the analysis, you would have heard numerous disclaimers that later exit polling would represent demographics that skew more towards Bush.

Exit polls are a joke, syrup. They give the talking heads something to blather about while they're waiting for real news to come in. Exit polls are done to find out what factors influenced voters during the final days of the election, so that the parties can better plan their campaigns next time. As a means of predicting the outcome of the election, they're worthless.

-kimmy

So MS says the boxes were stuffed because the democrats are loosing to the republicans. I don't recall MS saying Canadian ballot boxes were stuffed when the liberals got more votes then the pollsters were saying.

There would be no complaint from MS if republicans got less votes then exit poll surveys were sugesting.

[maplesyrup]

Regardless of whether the election was rigged or not, there is a very fundamental reason why the Democrats lost. Their right wing policies are almost identical to the Republicians. And Kerry was a nitemare as leader of the Democrats.

Hillary will now become the defacto opposition in the US and will run in 2008 as the Dem nominee.

But the Dems do not have a chance in 2008 unless they become a populist party and get involved in representing the ordinary people in the US backed by big labour.

Ralph Nader was correct all along.

[maplesyrup]

United States and Bush are tragedies:

Article

[ticker]

there is a very fundamental reason why the Democrats lost. Their right wing policies are almost identical to the Republicians.

that describes joe clark and the old conseravitives.

they were just a different name for liberal.

[maplesyrup]

Why do I feel like I want to puke this morning:

Article

Because this is a friggin' nitemare, that's why.

Thank goodness i live in Canada, and I really feel sorry for my US cousins.

Will the US now impose a military draft?

[Cartman]

there is a very fundamental reason why the Democrats lost. Their right wing policies are almost identical to the Republicians. And Kerry was a nitemare as leader of the Democrats.

I agree. I did not know who would win, but I did think that in order to request votes, you need to give people a reason to do so. Kerry is too similar to Bush.

Cartman Posted: Sep 29 2004, 01:25 PM

Dean was the only decent candidate they had. Not very articulate I think, but at least he had an alternative point of view.

I would agree with Bush on his views of Kerry and I would go even further. I would say that the Democrats were very opportunistic when they elected Kerry. IMO, the ONLY reason he won was because of polls indicating he could challenge Bush. They are gonna pay for it now because it is better to go with the devil you know than...

[Slavik44]

Regardless of whether the election was rigged or not, there is a very fundamental reason why the Democrats lost. Their right wing policies are almost identical to the Republicians. And Kerry was a nitemare as leader of the Democrats.

Hillary will now become the defacto opposition in the US and will run in 2008 as the Dem nominee.

But the Dems do not have a chance in 2008 unless they become a populist party and get involved in representing the ordinary people in the US backed by big labour.

Ralph Nader was correct all along.

Maple could you tell me where you stand because I am kinda confused with your position here,

What a friggin' disaster of a candidate Kerry has turned out to be. Why can't someone light a fire under his ass so he comes out swinging in the upcoming debates? I mean folks, what does this clown got to lose?

That's why I always thought all that talk about Nader's candidacy damaging the Democrats is absolute BS.

The Democrats have destroyed themselves by choosing such a dickhead to carry their colours into the arena. Kerry acts like he is in love with Bush. 

At least Dean was a bloddy contrast to Bush:

I am surprised at the left wing folks who thought Ralph Nader was part of the problem in helping to get rid of Bush.

Ralph Nader is the beginning of the solution, and Kerry and the Democrats are part of the problem.

so that lines up with what your saying today

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Well we won't have to be worrying about the effects of a Kerry White House - it isn't going to happen, as I think Bush has a lock on the presidency for a second term.

Not getting the attention but probably more interesting is what is happening in the Congresssional races. It looks like the Democrats are about to retake control of the Senate. 

I am actually not sure where this one fits in, sort of a bit of both

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Democrat uses TV debates and anger at Iraq to eat into Bush's lead in polls 

Ha! Ha! Ha!

I can't belive my eyes, less than a month to go before the US election, and do my eyes deceive me, or are Americans finally coming to their senses, and are going to reject giving Big Oil Cheney's puppet Bush, a second term?

Only in America! Truly amazin' 

now unless you thought Ralph Nader was going to win, this doesn't line up with what your saying today.

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The trouble with you guys is you don't change with the times. Now that it's obvious Americans are too stupid to vote for Nader, Kerry actually does have a chance after all. The folks that live in the past, and don't change their ways, die of remorse.

So now from supporting Nader to hating Nader and hating Kerry to supportign kerry.

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KERRY FINDS COMFORT IN FIRST BATCH OF EXIT POLLS;

Let's hope these initial results carry through, and rid us of tis US nightmare we have experiencing since Clinton left office. 

last nights opinion not lining up with this mornings opinion

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Bush is going to be re-elected.

I am surprised at the left wing folks who thought Ralph Nader was part of the problem in helping to get rid of Bush.

Ralph Nader is the beginning of the solution, and Kerry and the Democrats are part of the problem.

What a friggin' disaster this is for our planet!

Oh well, Hillary & Bill will be rubbing their hands with glee over this one.

Thankfull this mornigns opinion lines up with, well this mornings opinion.

Now just to keep me from confusion which opinion do you actually hold?

[maplesyrup]

I saw on Drudge yesterday that ballot boxes in Philadelphia had ballots in them before the start of voting. I can believe it, just like I can believe there were some shenanigans going on with the balloting in Ohio. Both major parties might be involved, but I will never be able to prove it, so I may as well move on from belabouring the point.

PM Martin is probably delighted now, as I have heard that the Liberal hierarchy has to:

SPEAK TO THE WOMEN IN THE LIBERAL PARTY

to make sure they are onside for the missile defence or star wars contracts. Just follow thev money folks.

Always knew we could count on Paul Martin to kiss the US ass whenever there are defence contracts at stake. Does CSL have a missle defence contract division yet?

[maplesyrup]

Slavik44....why don't you focus on putting your own opimnions out there, if you have any.

[Guest eureka]

The election should not have been in doubt. Big Brother won with the cult of fear. Kerry could have won it had he been able to swallow his conscience and throw as big a scare into the American people and bluster like Bush.

This result is a body blow to democracy ( always a bit of a joke in the USA) and a tribute to ignorance and disinformation. The American people are a thoroughly frightened population and nobody told them the truth until it was too late. The media began to question the Republican administration only in the last weeks of the campaign

[maplesyrup]

The US media apart from PBS, NPR, and a few publications like the NYT, are in bed with the US government and administration, and have been for a long long time.

One of the major reasons that the US is in the mess it is in as dissent is no tolerated, no longer mainstream, if it every was. A very sick society that is on the way out.

I wonder what Canada can do to protect itself from the growing emergence of China.

[Slavik44]

Slavik44....why don't you focus on putting your own opimnions out there, if you have any.

I certianly do put my opinions out there. My problem is that you put out to many opinions that conflict wiht each other. i normally do give my opinions however sometimes I like to stop and figure out what the heck you are argueing for, at one point you argue one thing and another point you argue a different thing. It is disrepsectful to say in one thread the democrat's are the problem Nader is the solution. Then say Nader and Bush are the problem the democrats are the path to a better America, then turn around and say that the democrats are the problem and are just another Republican party. All I am asking is for you to do what other members on this board do and take an opinion and atleast somewhat stick to it, or atleast not swich it 4 to 5 times a month.

you know my opinion on this, the ballot boxes were not stuffed, Bush won with a plurality, and deserved to win. I don't know wether Bush or Kerry was the better Candidate they both have dark sides but I don;t know the extent of Kerry's. But I slightly support Bush, because I bleive his Dark Side is limited due to the tie up in Iraq. I think the electoral college, while some would say slighlty un-democratic, is an excellent system for electing a president as it keeps some focus on smaller states that would normally be ignored by top leaders. However it seems to create a two party state and maybe looking into electoral reforms in the U.S would help democracy. I don't belive exit polls are an indicator of an election out come but can be used to anylise how groups of voters voted. It is a way to break down the vote, but is not an indicator of how elections will turn out, especially exit polls that only sampled voters during a certain time period.

Of course you already knew this because I had written these opinions before and after a while repeating myself word for word is pointless. In such I simply sumarise what I am thinking, give you the Idea, and if soemone has a problem with it, then I will go into more depth. that is why I asked the question of you above, because I never know what you are thinking because time and time again you post conflicting opinions. You also have not backed up your claim that the ballot boxes in Ohio were stuffed.

[caesar]

I wonder what Canada can do to protect itself from the growing emergence of China.

Be grateful. We may need the new markets that are opening up there. Plus we need a big power to counterbalnce the USA . We need another cold war to keep things under control. The world was a safer place when leaders thought before acting.

[maplesyrup]

Ohio, and only Ohio is where the action was.

And I suggest to you that slowly but surely we will discover the dirty tricks the GOP used to once again steal an election.

US democracy my ass!

[maplesyrup]

I this this is what is disturbing people more than anything else in the aftermath of Bush's re-election:

The Loonies Have Taken Control

"We had a good conversation," the senator said. "And we talked about the danger of division in our country and the need, the desperate need, for unity, for finding the common ground, coming together. Today I hope that we can begin the healing."

    Democrat: Heal thyself.

    W. doesn't see division as a danger. He sees it as a wingman.

    The president got re-elected by dividing the country along fault lines of fear, intolerance, ignorance and religious rule. He doesn't want to heal rifts; he wants to bring any riffraff who disagree to heel.

    W. ran a jihad in America so he can fight one in Iraq - drawing a devoted flock of evangelicals, or "values voters," as they call themselves, to the polls by opposing abortion, suffocating stem cell research and supporting a constitutional amendment against gay marriage.

    Mr. Bush, whose administration drummed up fake evidence to trick us into war with Iraq, sticking our troops in an immoral position with no exit strategy, won on "moral issues."

    The president says he's "humbled" and wants to reach out to the whole country. What humbug. The Bushes are always gracious until they don't get their way. If W. didn't reach out after the last election, which he barely grabbed, why would he reach out now that he has what Dick Cheney calls a "broad, nationwide victory"?

    While Mr. Bush was making his little speech about reaching out, Republicans said they had "the green light" to pursue their conservative agenda, like drilling in Alaska's wilderness and rewriting the tax code.

[kimmy]

Ohio, and only Ohio is where the action was.

And I suggest to you that slowly but surely we will discover the dirty tricks the GOP used to once again steal an election.

US democracy my ass!

Bush received 3,500,000 votes more than Kerry. Surely there can't be any doubt this time who Americans prefered.

In Ohio, they kept polling stations open for hours after closing times so that everybody who was in line would have a chance to cast their votes. Both parties had observers on hand to prevent dishonesty.

Bush won Ohio by 147,000 votes, or 2% of the votes cast. That's close, but not close enough to make a recount worthwhile. The absentee ballots haven't been counted, but the large majority of absentee ballots are cast by military personnel serving overseas, and it's known that military voters go Republican by more than 2:1.

Kerry did the right thing by acknowledging defeat. Recounts and legal proceedings would have upheld the Bush victory and worsened the divisions between people in the process.

The results in Ohio and nationwide support what the major polls had been saying all along: Bush was ahead... a slight lead, but enough to win. The only thing making people question the result is those wildly inaccurate exit polls, and their disappointment that their guy didn't win.

-kimmy

[Big Blue Machine]

Bush got the most votes in the right places. Gore had more votes than Bush in 2000, but he got in the wrong places. Like super-majorities in New York.

[CdnRepublican]

Yes and Andrew Coyne in today's NP makes a good analysis of Bush's vote. Bush won because he has substance, is a leader, has clear plans and acts. He is not a Chretien-Martin-Kerry liberal - who talks and does nothing. Regarding Bush voters Coyne states:

-45 % are Liberal or Moderate

-Bush polled below 40 % in only 3 Liberal states [Vmt; Mass, Del]

-Kerry polled below 40 % in 15 states

-Bush took 45 % of the Hispanic vote in many states

-Bush increased the Reps share of the Black Vote

-Married women preferred Bush to Kerry [The security moms]

Even with Lying exit polls the media could not swing this election to Kerry. Bush's support is broad, covers most of the country with the exception of the 3 Liberal states mentioned above and Calif/Oregon and Chicago-Pitts-Philly.

54 % is a justifiable mandate. It was not nearly as close as the media made it out to be.

Canada and Cdns are too left wing to notice, but a Bush election win is good news for Canada. Trade issues should be resolved, lower taxes in the US will spur lower taxes here [if Canada wants to remain competitive], and Cdns are dealing with a well organised mature White House unlike during the Clinton years when the Frat boys were in charge. The world needs a strong right of centre America.

[caesar]

A Bush election is not good news for anyone. It has nothing to do with right or left wing or trade issues. He has made this world a more unstable and dangerous place to live. Invading Iraq while it was cooperating with the UN weapons inspectors; killing thousands or innocent Iraqis; costing the lives of young American soldiers and allowing others to be permanently maimed when Iraq was NOT a danger to the USA and was NOT involved in the terrorism. The terrorists came to Iraq