In defence of the 'F' word

[-1=e^ipi]

So you're just saying you don't agree with connecting masculinity and femininity with biological sex or genders then?

Yes.

[Michael Hardner]

On Katy Perry or Lady Gaga....why would anyone expect that any women who become well-payed "stars" would give a crap about the lives of other women? I am sort of more suspicious of the pop stars calling themselves feminists or doing the meaningless "girl power" crappola, like the Spice Girls were doing back when my daughter was still in her formative years. Whatever that was supposed to be about....aside from selling dolls and hawking related merchandise....I should point out I'm a cynic of all pop culture in general.

WIP - your cynicism is indeed warranted, however I think any such dialogue can be positive including the "girl power" thing. Certainly better than "never mind about that, here's something that men need" type of censorship.

I am also curious about the 'now more than ever' thread. Certainly, male power dominates finance and military power and has not changed at all but I want to hear what other issues men can think about, in terms of social change.

[WIP]

Well some feminists hate men.

"Some" feminists can hate whatever they like. How much power (either physical or economic) do they have to affect your life because of this hatred?

Feminism can mean anything from gender egalitarianism to misandric hate ideology. And the perception that myself and others have is that male gender issues are being ignored by society.

I guess it's been covered since I was here last, but if you're talking about issues that negatively impact some men....like sexual assault and rape, it's not women or feminists movements that are standing in the way of them getting help. From what I have heard lately from these Catholic priest scandals that keep falling out of the closet on a near-regular basis, predator priests depended on tactics like shaming, for appearing weak and 'unmanly' if they ever came forward to report sexual assaults later.....who's fault was that?

When it comes to issues like divorce.....I'm still on my first marriage....never been divorced...so I can't speak from firsthand experience, but I don't know of many couples...especially those with children, who are financially comfortable enough to divide up income and family assets in a way that can make both sides happy! Even the issues like discrimination against fathers.....I think that was more of a problem when I was young, and courts would just assume that young children should stay with their mother. On all of these 'men's rights' issues, I can't think of any where it's women...especially feminist women who are infringing on their rights!

The problem again, is that most 'men's rights activist' groups do nothing about helping men, but just want to attack women for a variety of motives.....many of them about turning back the clock to some magical wonderful time in the past, when women were not in public life and didn't say much. I recall part of that world....it's not my idea of paradise!

[WIP]

WIP - your cynicism is indeed warranted, however I think any such dialogue can be positive including the "girl power" thing. Certainly better than "never mind about that, here's something that men need" type of censorship.

Well, when my kids were young and all that "girl power" and Spice girls nonsense was in the spin cycle, I couldn't see any point to it beyond selling products, and I recall more than a few female cultural observers of the time, were not happy with the way they, and other female pop stars were just doing what every other female pop star before them did: look pretty, try to sing and dance a bit, make a few suggestive/but not too lurid poses (especially you - Posh!), and make sure you present the right image for your sponsors. Beyond that, their brand of pop feminism didn't actually say anything except spouting a few inane slogans, similar in my thinking to the way pop stars talking about global warming and environmental issues want to wear green/but don't have a clue about the underlying issues.

I am also curious about the 'now more than ever' thread. Certainly, male power dominates finance and military power and has not changed at all but I want to hear what other issues men can think about, in terms of social change.

Which one is that exactly? I notice there is a "men's rights" thread and even an "official" sex thread since I last dropped by, Is it one of them or a different thread that didn't come up when I searched for it?

[Michael Hardner]

look pretty, try to sing and dance a bit, make a few suggestive/but not too lurid poses (especially you - Posh!), and make sure you present the right image for your sponsors.

Too negative. I think they did popularize the idea that you can look pretty, that anybody can do it, and that you have control over that. Telling people how they can't dress isn't feminist, in my opinion. If somebody wants to wear miniskirts and makeup, they should be able to. If they want to be a nun, they should be able to.

Which one is that exactly? I notice there is a "men's rights" thread and even an "official" sex thread since I last dropped by, Is it one of them or a different thread that didn't come up when I searched for it?

No, I'm interested in what's discussed on this thread - women's liberation and how they want us to help.

[WIP]

Too negative. I think they did popularize the idea that you can look pretty, that anybody can do it, and that you have control over that. Telling people how they can't dress isn't feminist, in my opinion. If somebody wants to wear miniskirts and makeup, they should be able to. If they want to be a nun, they should be able to.

You're missing the point! My dislike of them and 99% of pop culture is that it is little more than a marketing tool/ not how they dress up when on stage. In music, most girls who can play guitar and learn how to write songs, get almost no traction and are ignored by conglomerate pop media. The declining health of Joni Mitchell in recent days, has got me thinking of how the pioneers among real female musicians have sort of come and gone, and the following generations of young women have even more problems getting recording contracts, or even finding a place in a band as a musician. Girls who form their own bands are immediately tagged with the dyke label and consigned to the margins.

Back almost 50 years ago now, when Joni first appeared on the scene, pop music just wanted girls to look pretty and sing.....and not much has changed since then, and the crap that has come and gone (like the Spice Girls) fit the same template of girl pop star, regardless of their "girl power" slogans...it was just a bunch of empty slogans that have come and gone along with them!

[cybercoma]

Yes.

Then we agree, but that doesn't mean you reject masculinity and femininity, you reject hegemonic masculinity. Edited April 4, 2015 by cybercoma

[WIP]

No, I'm interested in what's discussed on this thread - women's liberation and how they want us to help.

To be honest, the term "women's liberation movement" seemed to vanish as the term "feminist movement" supplanted it a few decades ago. The feminists who took the women's liberation handle, tended to see women's issues as part of a wider array of liberation movements that were mostly on the left of the political spectrum. Feminism narrowed the approach to strictly women's issues...often ignoring many of the economic issues entirely. This, I'm told is one of the reasons why...in the U.S., black women didn't join in with feminist causes...."breaking the glass ceiling" and the "right to work outside the home" back in the early days, had nothing to say to most black women who had no choice other than working...whether they had children or not, and had to work at the most menial jobs with no opportunities of advancement.

So, 'how we help them' is going to depend in large part on where individual feminists are coming from. If it's just about a few social issues, we can help make the world and workplaces safer and friendlier environments for women, stomp down guys making excuses for other guys who engage in sexual assault and even rape, and I'm sure many other issues. But, like I mentioned, I would rather feminists seen their issues as part of a larger framework than just problems women have to deal with today.

[cybercoma]

Women's liberation is second wave feminism. Discussion these days is around intersectional feminism.

[Big Guy]

I recall my father telling me stories about the "Roaring Twenties" and the reaction of outrage that the "flappers" were able to create. I suggest that these were the original feminists, drinking, dancing, wearing makeup and voting. They were the in-your-face advocates who started the women's liberation movement with a bang!

Some call this a rebellion instead of liberation but they sure got people to think differently - and then the men came back from war. Lots did not and this imbalance ... well, that is for another day.

[Big Guy]

Just saw a report where a Canadian woman just won the NCAA 3 point basketball competition which was co-ed. She beat all the men!

[WestCoastRunner]

We can help move women forward in the labour sector by having men take women under their wing and mentor and groom them just as much as they do with men. It just doesn't happen enough with women. It's easier for a man to groom a man apparently.

I will start another thread on women in politics so that can be discussed. It is just as equally important to increase the number of women in politics.

Edited April 4, 2015 by WestCoastRunner

[WestCoastRunner]

Just saw a report where a Canadian woman just won the NCAA 3 point basketball competition which was co-ed. She beat all the men!

It's always great to hear these!! Well done for Canada and women!

[-1=e^ipi]

Just saw a report where a Canadian woman just won the NCAA 3 point basketball competition which was co-ed. She beat all the men!

And here I thought basketball was a team game.

[WestCoastRunner]

And here I thought basketball was a team game.

Is that your dig to take glory away from a woman? Would you have said that if a man had won the honour?

[-1=e^ipi]

I was responding to the claim 'she beat all the men'. I would have responded the same were someone claiming 'he beat all the men'. Obviously, since basketball is a team game, and her team contained men, she did not beat all the men.

[Big Guy]

I should have been more accurate in my post. It was an individual competition.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/sports/canadian-woman-wins-ncaa-three-point-contest-against-men-1.2311860

[Bryan]

I should have been more accurate in my post. It was an individual competition.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/sports/canadian-woman-wins-ncaa-three-point-contest-against-men-1.2311860

She also did not beat (or even compete against) "all the men", just one. That one man who got a higher scores in all three rounds of the men's championship. Pangos' score one-on-one against Brown was his lowest of the competition.

Brown is very, very good. But it does no one any good to exaggerate her achievements to make it appear that she did more than she really did. What she actually has accomplished is remarkable enough on its own.

[WestCoastRunner]

Well, when my kids were young and all that "girl power" and Spice girls nonsense was in the spin cycle, I couldn't see any point to it beyond selling products, and I recall more than a few female cultural observers of the time, were not happy with the way they, and other female pop stars were just doing what every other female pop star before them did: look pretty, try to sing and dance a bit, make a few suggestive/but not too lurid poses (especially you - Posh!), and make sure you present the right image for your sponsors.

You are right to be cynical about 'girl power' and all that it entailed with celebs, but we do have a new movement growing with current celebs continuing the push for equal rights for women.

"Emma Watson made that September speech to the United Nations about feminism and has been watched millions of times. The hack of emails at Sony Pictures revealed pervasive Hollywood gender wage gaps. And then there was Patricia Arquette's recent Oscar acceptance speech for her role as a struggling single mom in "Boyhood." She took to the podium, calling out for equal pay and rights for women in the United States, and inspired a social media frenzy -- not to mention enthusiastic cheers from Meryl Streep. In a backstage interview, Arquette specifically raised the need for the constitutional amendment."

[WestCoastRunner]

I am also curious about the 'now more than ever' thread.

Why 'now more than ever'? Here are a few more reasons:

The recent flood of U.S. state legislation meant to chip away at reproductive rights. See how religious freedoms trumped women's rights when the Supreme Court allowed Hobby Lobby to refuse comprehensive birth control coverage. Peek into corporate boardrooms and notice the dearth of female CEOs.

A lifetime of wage discrimination means women and their families also pay a price later when it comes to Social Security benefits.

It's 2014 and old white men are still trying to write laws to control women's bodies!

[Guest]

It's 2015.

(And old white men are still trying to tell you what year it is)

Edited April 5, 2015 by bcsapper

[Big Guy]

What about all the feminist pro-life organizations? I do not believe that being pro-life discounts someone from being a feminist - unless there is some disagreement of how being a feminist is defined.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Big Guy

[Michael Hardner]

Why 'now more than ever'? Here are a few more reasons:

Ok. Those are good examples. But more than 1950 ?

[WestCoastRunner]

Ok. Those are good examples. But more than 1950 ?

1950?

[Michael Hardner]

1950?

Yes, now more than ever ... does that mean more than 1950 or 1963 when The Feminine Mystique was published for example ?