Ash74 Posted February 10, 2015 Report Posted February 10, 2015 The Liberal Energy plan has been a disaster for Ontario since it started It has done nothing for in environment and has hurt lower income families with the huge price hikes. http://business.financialpost.com/2013/05/01/ontarios-green-disaster/ Older article but it shows the issues Quote “Show me a young Conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains.”― Winston S. Churchill There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him. –Robert Heinlein
On Guard for Thee Posted February 11, 2015 Report Posted February 11, 2015 The Liberal Energy plan has been a disaster for Ontario since it started It has done nothing for in environment and has hurt lower income families with the huge price hikes. http://business.financialpost.com/2013/05/01/ontarios-green-disaster/ Older article but it shows the issues OK, go back to coal. But STFU when the air i TO starts to stink like HK. Quote
Ash74 Posted February 11, 2015 Author Report Posted February 11, 2015 OK, go back to coal. But STFU when the air i TO starts to stink like HK. Did you read the part where more gas plants have to be built as a back up? Gas plants......... Wind and solar did not replace the coal generators, that would be the gas plants. Oh and Toronto's air is caused by traffic. Not going to be saved by wind farms beside the Gardner Quote “Show me a young Conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains.”― Winston S. Churchill There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him. –Robert Heinlein
On Guard for Thee Posted February 11, 2015 Report Posted February 11, 2015 Did you read the part where more gas plants have to be built as a back up? Gas plants......... Wind and solar did not replace the coal generators, that would be the gas plants. Oh and Toronto's air is caused by traffic. Not going to be saved by wind farms beside the Gardner The last coal geerator was shut down some time ago actually. I think it was in Thunder Bay. Quote
Ash74 Posted February 11, 2015 Author Report Posted February 11, 2015 The last coal geerator was shut down some time ago actually. I think it was in Thunder Bay. Yeah......and? They were replaced with gas plants because wind does not produce power when it is needed the most. Hot summer days when it is not windy. Solar does not produce enough to make that much of a difference so gas plants had to be built....and you know..not built Quote “Show me a young Conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains.”― Winston S. Churchill There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him. –Robert Heinlein
On Guard for Thee Posted February 11, 2015 Report Posted February 11, 2015 Yeah......and? They were replaced with gas plants because wind does not produce power when it is needed the most. Hot summer days when it is not windy. Solar does not produce enough to make that much of a difference so gas plants had to be built....and you know..not built Gas is a far cry from coal with regard to air quality. We have to make progress but it doesnt happen overnight. Like I say. if you dont want cleaner air go sped a week in HK and get back to us. Quote
Ash74 Posted February 11, 2015 Author Report Posted February 11, 2015 Gas is a far cry from coal with regard to air quality. We have to make progress but it doesnt happen overnight. Like I say. if you dont want cleaner air go sped a week in HK and get back to us. You got me good.....if I was saying we need coal back. I am saying that we the people of Ontario have spent billions on wind turbines and gas plants. These did not replace coal. They just kicked up the nuclear generators. This Green energy has been a mistake from the very beginning and instead of stopping it or holding off on new projects the government is increasing it. http://www.windontario.ca/ Quote “Show me a young Conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains.”― Winston S. Churchill There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him. –Robert Heinlein
On Guard for Thee Posted February 11, 2015 Report Posted February 11, 2015 You got me good.....if I was saying we need coal back. I am saying that we the people of Ontario have spent billions on wind turbines and gas plants. These did not replace coal. They just kicked up the nuclear generators. This Green energy has been a mistake from the very beginning and instead of stopping it or holding off on new projects the government is increasing it. http://www.windontario.ca/ I dont find wind turbines quite as offensive as smoke stacks. Granted they affect the skyline. but they are much less likely to affect my health. And I dont mind nuclear nowadays as long as we dont do something stupid and plop a reactor on a fault line. I do enjoy breathing clean air. Quote
Bob Macadoo Posted February 11, 2015 Report Posted February 11, 2015 The more appropriate title to this thread is "Ontario's Green Jobs Plan is so far a bust" That Post article is a Fraser Institute echo chamber.....all factually incorrect. You know what replaces coal? Nothing, b/c we didn't need them anymore....thanks to $100+ barrel oil / Par US Dollar Green never was intended to replace coal.....green is not a peak load generator....neither is it a baseload to supplant nuclear/hydro. It's a market development experiment intended to create distribution/assembly jobs (like Car assembly) in ON and spur innovation so we can be an industry leader. Wan to know what really replaces coal? Expanded hydro in Niagara Falls and Ottawa valley, converting Thunder Bay from coal to wood pulp, energy trade agreements with QC. We sell cheap in winter and they sell cheap in summer. That's what's really happening....not this chicken little crap. Your bill isn't and will not be high b/c of green energy as the Feed in tariff fees are about to drop.....either the experiment worked and jobs are a comin' OR we did another industry bailout (well not bailout as that would mean there was success at some point) and got a bag of hockey pucks....let's see Quote
Keepitsimple Posted February 11, 2015 Report Posted February 11, 2015 The more appropriate title to this thread is "Ontario's Green Jobs Plan is so far a bust" That Post article is a Fraser Institute echo chamber.....all factually incorrect. You know what replaces coal? Nothing, b/c we didn't need them anymore....thanks to $100+ barrel oil / Par US Dollar Green never was intended to replace coal.....green is not a peak load generator....neither is it a baseload to supplant nuclear/hydro. It's a market development experiment intended to create distribution/assembly jobs (like Car assembly) in ON and spur innovation so we can be an industry leader. Pretty good assessment. The "coal" argument is a red herring....especially since they were almost 10 years late in doing so. Quote Back to Basics
Ash74 Posted February 12, 2015 Author Report Posted February 12, 2015 The more appropriate title to this thread is "Ontario's Green Jobs Plan is so far a bust" That Post article is a Fraser Institute echo chamber.....all factually incorrect. You know what replaces coal? Nothing, b/c we didn't need them anymore....thanks to $100+ barrel oil / Par US Dollar Green never was intended to replace coal.....green is not a peak load generator....neither is it a baseload to supplant nuclear/hydro. It's a market development experiment intended to create distribution/assembly jobs (like Car assembly) in ON and spur innovation so we can be an industry leader. Wan to know what really replaces coal? Expanded hydro in Niagara Falls and Ottawa valley, converting Thunder Bay from coal to wood pulp, energy trade agreements with QC. We sell cheap in winter and they sell cheap in summer. That's what's really happening....not this chicken little crap. Your bill isn't and will not be high b/c of green energy as the Feed in tariff fees are about to drop.....either the experiment worked and jobs are a comin' OR we did another industry bailout (well not bailout as that would mean there was success at some point) and got a bag of hockey pucks....let's see So your defense of this is "We will have to wait and see" Billions spent including cancelled gas plants on the hope that it will spark an industry while chasing away others. "So it was never meant to replace coal" "Smart meters was never about saving money" "It will create 500,000 jobs" If it was going so well than why did Ontario cut its plan the second it had the chance to? http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ontario-cuts-back-on-green-energy-deal/article12718627/ Niagara Falls which is really cheap and clean is the first that gets shut down when we don't need the power. Wind and solar are 11-14.7 cents per kwh water 7 cents How does this benefit the people of this province. This is just another George Smitherman special that we will be paying for the rest of our lives Quote “Show me a young Conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains.”― Winston S. Churchill There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him. –Robert Heinlein
Ash74 Posted February 12, 2015 Author Report Posted February 12, 2015 It took some digging but here is an article about saving money using smart meters by changing the time of use. http://www.electricityforum.com/news/apr04/smartmeter.html also http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/ontario-smart-meters-safe-no-firm-answers-yet-province-says-1.2730276 oops wrong one http://news.nationalpost.com/2015/01/14/kelly-mcparland-smart-meters-another-botched-program-on-ontarios-long-list-of-power-boondoggles/ Yes it is an editorial but it does show the facts of the terrible job the Ontario Liberals have done with hydro in this province Quote “Show me a young Conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains.”― Winston S. Churchill There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him. –Robert Heinlein
overthere Posted February 12, 2015 Report Posted February 12, 2015 Your bill isn't and will not be high b/c of green energy as the Feed in tariff fees are about to drop.... are they really? My friend in SW Ontario sold tens of millions of $ worth of small solar setups to people on the basis of big tariffs guaranteed for 20 years by Ontario Hydro. Are they reneging on their contracts? Quote Science too hard for you? Try religion!
Bob Macadoo Posted February 12, 2015 Report Posted February 12, 2015 are they really? My friend in SW Ontario sold tens of millions of $ worth of small solar setups to people on the basis of big tariffs guaranteed for 20 years by Ontario Hydro. Are they reneging on their contracts? This year's FIT solar rate is half of what it was in 2013 I think (need to check) b/c the cost of infrastructure has come down. Theoretically rates reduce until a cost minimum is achieved. Your buddy was bait and switching.....not the first.....look at gas/power contract brokers. Quote
overthere Posted February 12, 2015 Report Posted February 12, 2015 I read the contract, it was fixed rate as I recall for the term of the contract. Churches and businesses with a bit of spare land or unobstructed rooftop were big customers, about $50k in fitup costs and payback was about 7 years for the capital cost. Quote Science too hard for you? Try religion!
Bob Macadoo Posted February 13, 2015 Report Posted February 13, 2015 I read the contract, it was fixed rate as I recall for the term of the contract. Churches and businesses with a bit of spare land or unobstructed rooftop were big customers, about $50k in fitup costs and payback was about 7 years for the capital cost.MicroFIT (Solar)2009 - 80 cents/kWh 2012 - 55 cents/kWh 2015 - 35 cents/kWh Quote
Ash74 Posted February 15, 2015 Author Report Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) MicroFIT (Solar) 2009 - 80 cents/kWh 2012 - 55 cents/kWh 2015 - 35 cents/kWh The 35 cents/kWh is still 5 times what it costs for gas,nuclear or water. Even at its best it is still a rip off Edited February 15, 2015 by Ash74 Quote “Show me a young Conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains.”― Winston S. Churchill There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him. –Robert Heinlein
Bob Macadoo Posted February 16, 2015 Report Posted February 16, 2015 The 35 cents/kWh is still 5 times what it costs for gas,nuclear or water. Even at its best it is still a rip off1) I was asked to show it's coming down.2) Your supposition hangs on the fact that it replaces nuclear/hydro....it does not. 3) The price is based on marketshare....as it goes up.....how much share do you think it has now considering its for rooftoppers? 4) Did you think creating a job market was going to be free? If you disagree with the policy (ie. Renewable energy as a part of our mix) that's fine but the economics on how its being done (ie. Paying a premium to develop the market then dropping to operating costs +ROR) IMO is the only way. Did you think the cheap nuclear/hydro market got or would be developed by the "free market"? Quote
Ash74 Posted February 16, 2015 Author Report Posted February 16, 2015 1) I was asked to show it's coming down. 2) Your supposition hangs on the fact that it replaces nuclear/hydro....it does not. 3) The price is based on marketshare....as it goes up.....how much share do you think it has now considering its for rooftoppers? 4) Did you think creating a job market was going to be free? If you disagree with the policy (ie. Renewable energy as a part of our mix) that's fine but the economics on how its being done (ie. Paying a premium to develop the market then dropping to operating costs +ROR) IMO is the only way. Did you think the cheap nuclear/hydro market got or would be developed by the "free market"? But this is not the free market. The government signed a contract forcing this on the people of Ontario. They have ignored their own environmental laws to allow wind mills to be built. If this was a private project it would have gone been shut down by the government. http://www.cela.ca/newsevents/fiche-d%E2%80%99information/overview-ontarios-green-energy-act Yes the contracts may have gotten cheaper but we are still selling the surplus at major loss. How is that good business? This "creating a job market" has helped chase more jobs, permanent jobs out of this province than create temporary jobs. The numbers were always as questionable as Hudak's million job plan. http://business.financialpost.com/2011/05/16/ontarios-power-trip-the-failure-of-the-green-energy-act/ Quote “Show me a young Conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains.”― Winston S. Churchill There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him. –Robert Heinlein
Bob Macadoo Posted February 18, 2015 Report Posted February 18, 2015 (edited) But this is not the free market. The government signed a contract forcing this on the people of Ontario. They have ignored their own environmental laws to allow wind mills to be built. If this was a private project it would have gone been shut down by the government. No free market would fund a nuclear plant either. I suspect no dam would be built either. How many have poopoo'd Darlington economics over the years yet the long view has shown it to be right. Yes the contracts may have gotten cheaper but we are still selling the surplus at major loss. How is that good business?Unfortunately when we may need capacity we wouldn't have it.....would you rather be selling at a slight loss or buying at a huge cost? Have you thought about what will happen when Pickering shutsdown? Edited February 18, 2015 by Bob Macadoo Quote
Ash74 Posted February 18, 2015 Author Report Posted February 18, 2015 http://ottawawindconcerns.com/2015/01/21/ontarios-rollback-surplus-power-sale-4b-in-3-years/ Now here you have a few billion Gas plants to back up the wind turbines Gas plants to not build to pay for Liberal seats Smart meters to get us to conserve energy so we can sell more at a loss. Oh the smart meters were an extra 600 million according to an auditor general report. You know.... the ones that didn't have to be replaced because they start fires. So please tell me how this has been done well. If this is how you judge success than I would really hate a failure. Quote “Show me a young Conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains.”― Winston S. Churchill There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him. –Robert Heinlein
Bob Macadoo Posted February 18, 2015 Report Posted February 18, 2015 Now here you have a few billion Gas plants to back up the wind turbines Gas plants to not build to pay for Liberal seats Smart meters to get us to conserve energy so we can sell more at a loss. Oh the smart meters were an extra 600 million according to an auditor general report. You know.... the ones that didn't have to be replaced because they start fires. So please tell me how this has been done well. If this is how you judge success than I would really hate a failure. I'm not the Liberal cheer squad. Your distraction discussions although correct have no bearing on the original topic.....the methodology of adding renewable power to the grid. Quote
Ash74 Posted February 18, 2015 Author Report Posted February 18, 2015 Has the Act not been one screw up after another? Every report paints a worse picture than the last. I am not against renewable energy. I am not from Texas with a gun rack in my pickup truck with a confederate flag in the window. I am saying this has been one disaster after another. This has been a mess and has done terrible damage to lower middle class and lower income families. Not to mention businesses. Quote “Show me a young Conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains.”― Winston S. Churchill There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him. –Robert Heinlein
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 18, 2015 Report Posted February 18, 2015 ...I am not against renewable energy. I am not from Texas with a gun rack in my pickup truck with a confederate flag in the window. Texas has more than four times the wind power as the failed projects in Ontario. It is also the home for hosting this forum. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
On Guard for Thee Posted February 18, 2015 Report Posted February 18, 2015 Texas has more than four times the wind power as the failed projects in Ontario. It is also the home for hosting this forum. And more than 4 times the gun racks and confederate flags, and a fair amount of .......wind. Quote
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