Michael Hardner Posted April 13, 2015 Report Posted April 13, 2015 It never ceases to amuse and amaze me how some of those on the far left do their damnedest to utterly trivialize the brutal, vicious prejudices of certain foreign cultures. While you and others of your ideological persuasion would be aghast at any sign of local prejudice, you blithely dismiss the most cruel and heartless bigotry, racism, homophobia and misogyny on the part of 'foreigners' simply because you have this desperate, patternalistic need to be the apologist for anyone and any group you identify as a minority. I sometimes think that if some religious group (as long as it was non-Christian) adopted a creed which called for sacrificing and eating babies you'd still be tut-tutting anyone who dared to condemn them. No, Mikey, it's not about people not liking hockey. That's not why people condemn aspects of some foreign cultures. It has a lot more to do with them being so far over the line in terms of their prejudicial beliefs that they make the KKK and the Nazis seem like flaming liberals by comparison. How you got all of this from my refusal to accept somebody else's definition of Canadian culture.... I don't care why they do it, so much, but I don't want to be included in somebody else's definition of what I"m all about. Given you don't even believe Canada should exist I don't find it a surprise you dislike the idea we have a culture. Yes, ultimately I don't believe countries should exist as they do today. As I said I'm ok with the idea that we have a culture, as multifaceted and undefineable as it may be, but just not somebody telling me what "our" culture is. Do you like it when people tell you that Canada is a multicultural paradise ? I'll bet you don't. Unlike yourself, you see, I don't feel it's my assigned duty as a White man to be an apologist for the rest of the world. I guess I'm just not as noble as you. More shadowboxing. I'm not apologizing for the rest of the world... I don't want somebody to force Timbits down my throat is all. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
jacee Posted April 13, 2015 Report Posted April 13, 2015 It's nobody's business how women are treated as long as they're not white? Is that what you're saying? It's nobody's business how they choose to dress. In this thread we are discussing a woman who chose to go to court to defend her right to wear a niqab during the citizenship oath. . Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted April 13, 2015 Report Posted April 13, 2015 It's nobody's business how they choose to dress. In this thread we are discussing a woman who chose to go to court to defend her right to wear a niqab during the citizenship oath. . Yes it seems the thread has drifted quite a ways from time to time. Especially since if you support anything but pasty white faced WASP immigration you get to suffer a lengthy screed from Argus. Quote
Rue Posted April 13, 2015 Report Posted April 13, 2015 Michael Harder the whole point of the niqab issue is people having opinions as to what WE want as Canadian values. I can only express mine Your attempt to make me out to be a megalomaniac because I a clear to speak for myself is hilarious. See there is the difference between us on this thread. I am crystal clear I speak for myself and do not presume to speak for others and you try recharacterize that as megalomania. Its not. It would be only if I thought it is the ONLY opinion we all should have. I never asserted that. You try smeer my position as being megalomania because the idea I have an opinion, is what bugs you. Using your logic if anyone expresses an opinion its megalomania but wait, not if its an opinion acceptable to you. If its a woman expressing her right to cover her face, that's not an act of megalomania-on the other hand it I express disagreement with her choice, it is. That is illogical. You again just use another name calling device to try say if I express an opinion its inappropriate, but if a woman expresses one you agree with, its acceptable. Bull. I have the right as do all Canadians to openly discuss how I feel. I do not use we. I do not presume to talk for others. I speak for me. That's a sense of reality Michael H. not megalomania. I know my limits. I speak for me and I encourage others to reject the niqab as a fascist,sexist, inclusive, detructive,value we should reject but I state it as my opinion. I don't use the royal prerogative. Don't mistake me as some two faced phony playing at being sanctimonious. I never claimed to be sanctimonious. I find the niqb practice repulsive and I say so. It does not make me a megalomaniac anymore than I despise someone who wears a KKK hood. Nice try though. You just can't resist with the personal labeling and I unfortunately respond accordingly. How about I make it clear, to me the kind of thought process of covering a face because one thinks that face needs to be covered because its sexual is the kind of mentality and belief I do not want this country to accept the same reason I do not want it to except polygamy, beating of women, stoning, segregation of women at religious ceremonies. That doesn't make me a megalomaniac. It makes me a member of this forum expressing his opinions. Interesting how you find it unfair to prevent a woman from covering her face claiming its an unfair stereotype, but in her defence engage in unfair stereotyping to justify it. You can't make a coherent argument for why a face is sexually provocative and needs covering as your reason to support her but you can and will engage in this absurd argument that by tolerating her intolerance, it makes you more tolerant than I and the fact I don't support intolerance, a megalomaniac. Right now. I hate the KKK because I am a megalomaniac. I don't want naked people at the citizenship ceremonies because I am a megalomaniac. Lol. Got it Quote
Argus Posted April 13, 2015 Report Posted April 13, 2015 It's nobody's business how they choose to dress. In this thread we are discussing a woman who chose to go to court to defend her right to wear a niqab during the citizenship oath. . Only if you're short sighted enough to think her decision exists in a vacuum. She subscribes to a religious belief that women are inferior and are guilty of inflaming mens passions, and so must be shrouded to protect men, and beaten when she irritates them. Do you believe that is a belief which should be encouraged in Canada? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted April 13, 2015 Report Posted April 13, 2015 Yes it seems the thread has drifted quite a ways from time to time. Especially since if you support anything but pasty white faced WASP immigration you get to suffer a lengthy screed from Argus. The only racism I see here is coming from you and your ilk, with our paternalistic belief in the inferiority of these people and outrage and indignation that anyone tries to hold them up to the same standard as White people. Your bigotry is an enabler for all the worst aspects of these values. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted April 13, 2015 Report Posted April 13, 2015 How you got all of this from my refusal to accept somebody else's definition of Canadian culture.... Since I never attempted to define Canadian culture I got all that from your sneering rejoinder about hockey. Yes, ultimately I don't believe countries should exist as they do today. I wish people like you could be forced to spend some time living in places like Somalia, Afghanistan and Pakistan, and not as a pampered western tourist either. I bet you'd return, if you survived, with an appreciation for the culture and value system which makes this such a safe and prosperous country. More shadowboxing. I'm not apologizing for the rest of the world... I don't want somebody to force Timbits down my throat is all. And I don't want some pasty faced liberal to force honor killings, tribal violence, and backward religious beliefs down my throat just so he can wax prosaic about the latest 'delightful' ethnic restaurant he's been to at his next dinner party. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
cybercoma Posted April 13, 2015 Author Report Posted April 13, 2015 Yes it seems the thread has drifted quite a ways from time to time. Especially since if you support anything but pasty white faced WASP immigration you get to suffer a lengthy screed from Argus. Argus doesn't seem to understand the difference between personal freedom and being forced to comply with dress codes. As he sits here and supports the government's enforced dress code by taking it a step further and saying anyone who wears a niqab should be barred from entry, he hypocritically claims that people who oppose governments dictating dress are the ones who support the oppression of women. Anyone with an ounce of reason can see that the argument here is about governments stripping away people's individuality and identities versus governments allowing personal freedom and cultural diversity. Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted April 13, 2015 Report Posted April 13, 2015 The only racism I see here is coming from you and your ilk, with our paternalistic belief in the inferiority of these people and outrage and indignation that anyone tries to hold them up to the same standard as White people. Your bigotry is an enabler for all the worst aspects of these values. You can try running that one up the flagpole if you wish, but I doubt anyone will salute. Not quite sure how you are proposing to conflate inferiority with equality for starters, and I think you know very well where that bigot term tends to be directed on this thread. Quote
cybercoma Posted April 13, 2015 Author Report Posted April 13, 2015 (edited) Only if you're short sighted enough to think her decision exists in a vacuum. She subscribes to a religious belief that women are inferior and are guilty of inflaming mens passions, and so must be shrouded to protect men, and beaten when she irritates them. Do you believe that is a belief which should be encouraged in Canada? She belongs to a religion with a prophet whom had powerful women for wives, one of which was a wealthy business woman. A large portion of Canada subscribes to Catholicism which still bans women from positions of power and subordinates them in the church to wear shrouded gowns as a sign of their modesty, not unlike Muslim women do. Catholicism also follows a prophet who surrounded himself with 12 men and was unmarried. The most predominant women in his story was his mother who apparently was a virgin and the other a whore. You talk about vacuums, but that's exactly where your arguments exist on this matter. In a vacuum, containing only your blind bigotry to fuel completely biased opinions. You sit here and try to spin this as though anyone on this forum accepts violence against women in any part of the world, which patently absurd. People in this thread are defending a woman who went to court to fight for her right to identify with her religion and culture in the way that she chooses, which harms no one. You're here fighting to keep her out because you lump onto her a bunch of cockeyed BS that you think pertains to her due to your own personal biases and intellectual shortcomings. Edited April 13, 2015 by cybercoma Quote
Argus Posted April 13, 2015 Report Posted April 13, 2015 You can try running that one up the flagpole if you wish, but I doubt anyone will salute. Not quite sure how you are proposing to conflate inferiority with equality for starters, and I think you know very well where that bigot term tends to be directed on this thread. Yes, you liberal bigots tend to throw it around a lot because you can't understand how anyone would be so unfair as to try and hold non-White people and countries to the same standards as White people and countries. It outrages you that we must hate those poor, inferior non-Whites so much as to demand unfair standards of behaviour from them. If I need to explain it, it's because none of you even understand how deeply racist your paternalistic attitudes are. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
cybercoma Posted April 13, 2015 Author Report Posted April 13, 2015 Yes, you liberal bigots You got so tired of people pointing out your bigotry that you're just going to try to reflect it now, eh? Weak. Quote
cybercoma Posted April 13, 2015 Author Report Posted April 13, 2015 And nobody's talking about holding OTHER countries to any particular standards. This thread is about THIS country and a woman who fought for her right to identify with her culture and religion. Stop conflating issues. Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted April 13, 2015 Report Posted April 13, 2015 Yes, you liberal bigots tend to throw it around a lot because you can't understand how anyone would be so unfair as to try and hold non-White people and countries to the same standards as White people and countries. It outrages you that we must hate those poor, inferior non-Whites so much as to demand unfair standards of behaviour from them. If I need to explain it, it's because none of you even understand how deeply racist your paternalistic attitudes are. Apparently you are throwing around a number of words you obviously have no understanding of. Not my job to be your educator, there are online dictionaries for that. But I will say, I am one of those white persons from a white country who supports and holds dear the kind of standards we have in this white country that allows other people, white or not, the same freedoms for all. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted April 13, 2015 Report Posted April 13, 2015 I have the right as do all Canadians to openly discuss how I feel. I do not use we. I do not presume to talk for others. I speak for me. I decided to stop this discussion when you started telling people to "shut up". I'm not sure how you resolve that, but perhaps you can PM me to discuss it moving forward. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted April 13, 2015 Report Posted April 13, 2015 Since I never attempted to define Canadian culture I got all that from your sneering rejoinder about hockey. It wasn't you, but your "ilk" who tried to box me into their idea of culture. I wish people like you could be forced to spend some time living in places like Somalia, Afghanistan and Pakistan, Ah.... the lighthearted wishes and hopes we express when spring bursts borth... an appreciation for the culture and value system which makes this such a safe and prosperous country. I do appreciate it. And I don't want some pasty faced liberal to force honor killings, tribal violence, and backward religious beliefs down my throat just so he can wax prosaic about the latest 'delightful' ethnic restaurant he's been to at his next dinner party. Excellent. Then we agree, there is no "our" culture. I can't force you to delight in honour (Canadian spelling btw) killings with my dinner party friends, and you can't force me to gorge on Timbits in the stands of the next Junior "C" hockey game... Problem solved. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
LemonPureLeaf Posted April 13, 2015 Report Posted April 13, 2015 I think its funny that the same people defending this non white persons mysogyny would be up in arms if a white person held similar views about women in society. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted April 13, 2015 Report Posted April 13, 2015 I think its funny that the same people defending this non white persons mysogyny would be up in arms if a white person held similar views about women in society. So you think something you have imagined is funny ? Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
LemonPureLeaf Posted April 13, 2015 Report Posted April 13, 2015 So you think something you have imagined is funny ? its about what the niqab represents not the hood itself. It represents the same thing to every Muslim. Why is this hard¿? Quote
Michael Hardner Posted April 13, 2015 Report Posted April 13, 2015 its about what the niqab represents not the hood itself. It represents the same thing to every Muslim. Why is this hard¿? You tell me, it's in your mind not mine. I honestly don't know how to respond when you make up a strawman then ask others to comment... Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
LemonPureLeaf Posted April 13, 2015 Report Posted April 13, 2015 You tell me, it's in your mind not mine. I honestly don't know how to respond when you make up a strawman then ask others to comment... Everyone in favor of the Niqab is looking at it as a hood only and ignoring what it actually represents to every muslim on the planet. Its not the hood itself but what it represents that people have a problem with. Are you saying your ignorant as to the niqabs meaning to Muslims? I would think it a better idea to educate yourselves before announcing Support for a niqab. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted April 13, 2015 Report Posted April 13, 2015 Are you saying your ignorant as to the niqabs meaning to Muslims? I don't know anything about religious garb, nor do I care what it 'represents'. I don't feel that the state needs to engage in thought control over religious people. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
carepov Posted April 13, 2015 Report Posted April 13, 2015 Paradoxically, I think that in Canada, some women that choose to wear the niqab are doing so as an act of rebellion - not an act of submission. Perhaps they want to be the "center of attention" (again a paradox). I base this opinion on an interview with three niquab-wearing women on The Current, all three had males family members that were strongly dissuading them from wearing the niquab, they didn't say it but my take was the niquab was their way of giving these men the finger. http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-march-19-2015-1.3001074/2-niqabs-and-a-hijab-3-muslim-women-talk-about-the-face-covering-1.3001080 If the goal is to give the finger to society and stir up emotions, it looks like these niquab-wearing Canadians are very successful. niquab is the new punk Quote
cybercoma Posted April 13, 2015 Author Report Posted April 13, 2015 Yes, because if women don't just do what men tell them, then they're just being rebellious and being s*** disturbers. They should just shut up and be subservient to the men in their lives and dress how they're told. Nevermind that the judicial cast that is the topic of this thread had a woman who expressed her desire to wear the niqab was to express her cultural and religious identity. Forget her. She's just being rebellious and giving the middle finger to society. It's just like those barbaric indians who wear their feathers and bang on drums, shouting at the top of their lungs. When will they become more....well, civilized? Quote
Argus Posted April 13, 2015 Report Posted April 13, 2015 You tell me, it's in your mind not mine. I honestly don't know how to respond when you make up a strawman then ask others to comment... You think it's a strawman that the niquab is representative of misogyny? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
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