ReeferMadness Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 But you sneer at Evangelical Christians and call them dangerous, yet you defend fundamentalist Muslims who have far more regressive social views. Hypocritical, much?Thanks for the ad hominem comment. They're only dangerous if they happen to have the levers of government - particularly, if they are an autocratic leader like Harper. If a fundamentalist Muslim were in a similar position, I would be similarly concerned. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
Argus Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 He has blown it out of all proportion for cheap political gain. Oh? How has he done that? Ninety nine percent of the hot air I've seen on this subject have come from the media and opposition politicians. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 Thanks for the ad hominem comment. They're only dangerous if they happen to have the levers of government - particularly, if they are an autocratic leader like Harper. If a fundamentalist Muslim were in a similar position, I would be similarly concerned. And yet, you want there to be more fundamentalist Muslims in Canada, and cheer them voting... Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
poochy Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 (edited) Do you know anything about Muslim beliefs? 1. Abortion: Ok until the 4th month, when its believed fetus' become a living soul. That's nearly identical to what 'progressives' think, eh? 2. Homosexuality: wrong, though penalties differ among the various sects from no penalty to death. 3. Death penalty: Supported for serious crime, such as murder, treason, apostasy, rape, adultery, homosexuality; dependent also on what particular sect is Let's compare Christian beliefs: 1. Abortion: Wrong under any circumstances 2. Homosexuality: Wrong under any circumstances 3. Death penalty: Generally yes for serious crimes, but also dependent on individual church teachings as well as individual beliefs I wonder what runs through someones head when they take the time to write something so obviously ridiculous, those guys don't like you, but only some of them might kill you, those other guys....o yea, they don't like you all of the time, not like those other guys who sometime kill you for it, when they aren't killing you, they clearly like you....right, it's wonderland Alice. Edited October 9, 2015 by poochy Quote
ReeferMadness Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 I agree with Argus, for once. There is wide support about this... including women who don't want other women who happen to be Muslim to be under their spouse's authoritarian rule. So to call it "the bigoted base" is really ignoring the facts... The facts? Have you listened to this woman explain why she chooses to wear the niqab (even though her family advised her not to)? Honestly, the ignorance on this particular issue is astounding. And who are you to decide whether a woman is wearing a niqab because she is oppressed vs because she wants to? If you force her to take it off, how are you any better than her husband who forces her to wear it? Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ReeferMadness Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 And yet, you want there to be more fundamentalist Muslims in Canada, and cheer them voting... And now you are calling this woman a fundamentalist, though you clearly know nothing about her. Rule by ignorant stereotype - that's what you seem to favor. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
Argus Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 And now you are calling this woman a fundamentalist, though you clearly know nothing about her. Rule by ignorant stereotype - that's what you seem to favor. Oh wake up. Even the Muslims call them fundamentalists. Tarek Fatah said on CTV today that 90% of Muslims wouldn't even speak to anyone wearing one of those things. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Icebound Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 What is the Christian equivalent of the Taliban or ISIS? Oh, how about Alberta's Aryan Guard. It just happens that they haven't got a hold of the firepower yet. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/calgarys-in-your-face-neo-nazis-take-to-the-streets/article573162/?page=all On an international scale.... here are SIX more, right here: http://www.salon.com/2015/04/07/6_modern_day_christian_terrorist_groups_our_media_conveniently_ignores_partner/ Quote
ReeferMadness Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 Oh wake up. Even the Muslims call them fundamentalists. Tarek Fatah said on CTV today that 90% of Muslims wouldn't even speak to anyone wearing one of those things. And because some people who want to deny her individual rights are Muslim, that makes it OK? You guys who want smaller government are kind of particular about what kind of smaller government you want. Regardless, I still haven't seen you present any evidence that she is a fundamentalist. Either present some or we can conclude you are just working off of a negative stereotype. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ReeferMadness Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 And again, her views alone don't make her an extremist. If she goes out killing infidels, gays and apostates, then we'll chat. I sure hope they get that barbaric cultural practices hot line going before she does. Otherwise, people might not know who to call. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
Argus Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 Regardless, I still haven't seen you present any evidence that she is a fundamentalist. The niqab is basically the uniform of a fundamentalist. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
ReeferMadness Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 I'm glad to see she got her citizenship in time so she can vote. Hopefully now Harper will back off and deal with some real issues. Good luck with that. As long as Lynton Crosby is giving Harper instructions, you can expect more race baiting. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ReeferMadness Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 The niqab is basically the uniform of a fundamentalist. And negative stereotypes are a sign of bigotry. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
dialamah Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 What is the Christian equivalent of the Taliban or ISIS? Republican Tea-Party. More seriously, in the countries that the US and her allies have engaged in war, we are the "terrorists" in the view of many of the people over there. We are the ones who go in there and kill innocent people. We are the ones who provide weaponry to enemies, we impose sanctions that hurt them, we pick and choose who shall be 'approved' and who shall not. For many people in the Middle East, we are the bad guys. You can argue that we're in there 'stabilizing' or we were 'invited', but for a people living in bombed out cities and towns, and who fear on a daily basis for their life, they may not see it the same. In order to ensure we in the west know clearly who the "bad guys" are, we're told about Malala who was shot in the head by the Taliban for trying to get an education; she's invited to the States to talk, she's honored with a Nobel Peace prize. She's called a hero and becomes a spokesperson for victims of terrorism everywhere. We aren't told about Nabila, a young girl who saw her grandmother killed and siblings injured by a drone strike while they worked in their field. There was no terrorist hiding there, just a family trying to survive. The young girl, same age as Malala, presented testimony in front of the US Congress, and five reps showed up. Just five. This is a tiny story, so few people ever hear of it - why is that? Of course, the problem here is that it's an American weapon that is killing people, and not a Taliban weapon. This is not something that fits into their narrative that it's "those guys" who are doing all the maiming and killing. So they ignore it, and all we hear about are the Malala's of the world, not the Nabilas. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/29/pakistan-family-drone-victim-testimony-congress https://www.rt.com/usa/rehman-drone-grayson-hearing-924/ http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/11/malala-nabila-worlds-apart-201311193857549913.html http://mic.com/articles/71393/what-it-s-like-to-live-with-drone-strikes-in-victims-own-words I don't agree with what ISIS or the Taliban does, or what they stand for. But I also know that we over here aren't so lily-white. So, in my opinion, the answer to "What is the Christian equivalent of ISIS or the Taliban", I have to say it's us. We are the ones killing innocents, while pretending we don't. We're imposing our rules on them, because we can, because we're the richest and we have the biggest guns. Quote
poochy Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 Republican Tea-Party. Can you explain to us why you think a religion that dislikes homosexuals enough that it somtimes kills them is no different than a religion that dislikes homosexuals and doesn't kill them? it's hard for a rational person to take anything seriously from someone who could hold such a illogical position, so maybe you can clarify it. Quote
The_Squid Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 (edited) The facts? Have you listened to this woman explain why she chooses to wear the niqab (even though her family advised her not to)? Honestly, the ignorance on this particular issue is astounding.I think you're assuming that because there is this woman who has a choice, that must mean that they all choose this. I disagree completely that this is the case and that the opposite is actually true. Most people who wear this don't do so because they choose to. They do it because they have no choice.And who are you to decide whether a woman is wearing a niqab because she is oppressed vs because she wants to? If you force her to take it off, how are you any better than her husband who forces her to wear it?We, as a society, make all sorts of laws like this. I have to wear underpants or I will be arrested... We restrict what we can say.... Punishable by law if you say the wrong thing. Of course we can tell oppressive religions that they can't dress women head to toe in sheets. M these women aren't a functional part of Canadian society when they are dressed like this. So, clearly this was not the "bigoted base" like you claim it is, unless you are calling me (who've never voted PC, Reform or CPC ever) Harper's "base". And BC_chick too? Come on now... That comment was off-base! Edited October 9, 2015 by The_Squid Quote
ReeferMadness Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 Abortion is illegal in much of the Muslim world, particularly the middle east. As for progressives, as far as most of them are concerned anyone who questions the right to an abortion up to the 9th month is basically Adolph Hitler reincarnated - well, unless they're Muslim, of course. Which Muslim countries allow homosexuality? Death for wanting to leave Islam. Nice. And yet abortion is legal in pretty much all western countries, all of whom are Christian. And yet no Christian church in the west supports gays being imprisoned, much less executed. Most Christian organizations are against the death penalty, including the Catholic church. If you're blind, deaf dumb and stupid, I suppose. Most of us who have our judgements based on more reality feel the differences between them are vast. Brain dead arguments. You're comparing theocracies against secular governments. A fairer comparison would be to Turkey. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
The_Squid Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 Saying the niqab is part of a moderate religious view is, frankly, totally absurd. It's an oppressive cultural practice that even most Muslims think is not right. Quote
dialamah Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 I wonder what runs through someones head when they take the time to write something so obviously ridiculous, those guys don't like you, but only some of them might kill you, those other guys....o yea, they don't like you all of the time, not like those other guys who sometime kill you for it, when they aren't killing you, they clearly like you....right, it's wonderland Alice. Why is it that when presented with facts, conservative types can't do any better than respond with insults? Most Christians disapprove of abortion. Most Christians DO NOT bomb abortion clinics or shoot staff members who work there. Does the fact that SOME do mean I should declare all Christians murderers, fanatics and extremists? There are 1.6 Billion Muslims in the world and it's estimated that there are about 106,000 extremists; that's .00006625% of all Muslims. But people such as yourself, unable to count or employ any logic whatsoever, simply assume Muslim=Terrorists. What a maroon. If you decide to reply, try and employ some thought, maybe some facts, maybe some intelligence. Otherwise, don't bother. You aren't worth my time. Quote
dialamah Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 I agree with Argus, for once. There is wide support about this... including women who don't want other women who happen to be Muslim to be under their spouse's authoritarian rule. So to call it "the bigoted base" is really ignoring the facts... Since when has 'wide support' equalled 'being right'? Quote
The_Squid Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 Here is some interesting reading if you want to know who the people are that have women dress like this... http://farzanahassan.com/Articals/FH0012.htm Whose rights need protection? The rights of Muslim women who are forced to wear a burqa because the law of the land allows it? The rights of children who are forced to wear this cumbersome attire to school? The rights of bank tellers and store clerks to know who or what they are dealing with? The rights of the general public, who are alarmed by allegations of bomb plots right here in Toronto? We must all be ready to answer these questions. Whether the Burak is or isn’t a symbol of oppression for some can be debated endless by religious people but the fact that it most certainly has that potential is undeniable. Has the seven-year-old Pakistani girl stumbling to school in a white shroud exercised free choice? The woman who is abused or browbeaten by male relatives, how can she exercise her right to choose? Women who are surrounded by extremist ideology that is financed by Saudi Arabia, are their choices really free? -------------------------- Farzana Hassan is the president of the Muslim Canadian Congress and author of Islam, Women and the Challenges of Today. Quote
Icebound Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 (edited) The polls are consistent, across all party lines and all demographics. Canadians don't like the niqab or those who wear them. Heck, I caught the tail end of an interview on CTV news this afternoon with Tarek Fatah, who was angry at the way he thinks Muslims are being portrayed. The last words he spoke were "Ninety percent of Muslims would never even talk to someone in a niqab!" So maybe a lot of Muslims don't like them either. So Canadians don't like the niqab, and maybe many or even most Muslims don't like the niqab. Guess what? I bet the same is true of Black Leather Jackets with certain club logos.... or maybe being served by somebody with noserings and eybrow piercings.... or pink "mohawk-style" haircuts with green streaks... etc. etc. etc. There is lots of stuff about OTHER people that we "don't like", but none of them need be election issues, because in the grand scheme of things, ... THEY .... DON'T .... MATTER. This particular person happens to be very adapted to Canadian life.... nobody in her family wears the niqab... sisters, mother. Her family advises against it, including her husband. She chose it for herself at about age 15 in spite of their protestations.... hey, maybe a normal teen-age backlash against authority, eh? .... Her personal conviction is that it is a religious thing, but she fully understands that many Muslim clerics say that it is not. Having listened to her speak about her convictions and how it came to be, I am somewhat convinced that .... had this issue been left alone.... then in 5 years she would have tired of it all and given it up, nobody would have cared, and nobody would have followed her. But NOW, that we have turned it into such such a "big deal", you will see all kinds of people coming out of the woodwork using her as an "example to follow". Harper's Conservatives, and the people who agree with them, .... by going to such great lengths to ban a piece of irrelevant clothing....are actually INCREASING the probability that there will be more niqab-wearers in the future, not reducing it. Edited October 9, 2015 by Icebound Quote
ReeferMadness Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 I think you're assuming that because there is this woman who has a choice, that must mean that they all choose this. I'm assuming nothing of the sort. I disagree completely that this is the case and that the opposite is actually true. Most people who wear this don't do so because they choose to. They do it because they have no choice. This is a negative stereotype. Like most stereotypes, there may be truth to it but limiting individual choice based on a group stereotype is discriminatory. I'm amazed that I have to explain this to people in 2015!! We, as a society, make all sorts of laws like this. I have to wear underpants or I will be arrested... We restrict what we can say.... Punishable by law if you say the wrong thing. Of course we can tell oppressive religions that they can't dress women head to toe in sheets. M these women aren't a functional part of Canadian society when they are dressed like this. who are you to say she can't be a functional part of Canadian society? The arrogance! Would you ban the kilt? Lederhosen? The kippah? We live in a pluralistic society and that means we tolerate and embrace differences. So, clearly this was not the "bigoted base" like you claim it is, unless you are calling me (who've never voted PC, Reform or CPC ever) Harper's "base". And BC_chick too? Come on now... That comment was off-base! You don't have the right to decide whether anyone else is being oppressed. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
The_Squid Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 Since when has 'wide support' equalled 'being right'? I never said he was right because there's wide support. I said Reefer was wrong to say that this is only the CPC "bigoted base" that supports restrictions on wearing the niqab. The "rightness" of it is based on being against the religious/cultural oppression of women, not because it's a popular viewpoint. Quote
WestCoastRunner Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 [quote name="dialamah" post="1102254" timestamp= What a maroon. . I think you mean moron, not maroon. Sorry. I'm a freelance writer. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
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