Bonam Posted February 10, 2015 Report Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) And Israelis DO have the right to self determination, problem is they are trying to deny that right to millions of other people. No, the problem is those millions of other people are failing to exercise their right of self-determination in a constructive way. Israel pulled out of Gaza, giving it a chance at self-determination. What did Gaza self-determine to do? Launch rockets at Israel, which was forced to respond in various ways to limit their ability to continue launching rockets. The people of Gaza coulda done something useful... tried to build a functioning society. But nope, that's never been a priority to the Palestinian leadership, whether in Gaza or in the West Bank. Similarly, viable peace offers have been presented numerous times to Palestinian leaders... yes, they didn't offer them 100% of what they want, but they gave them the vast majority of the territory of the West Bank and Gaza. These offers were rejected every time. Why? Why not accept and have a viable start, and improve the lives of your people as much as you can? You can always negotiate (or fight) for more later. Yes, Israel hasn't handed the Palestinians everything they want on a silver platter, there's no denying that. But what the Palestinians could have had for the taking, they simply have always failed to take. The preference of the Palestinian leadership has always been for continued struggle, bloodshed, and misery (primarily for their own people), rather than for any kind of productive outcome. Edited February 10, 2015 by Bonam Quote
GostHacked Posted February 11, 2015 Report Posted February 11, 2015 Bonam, what about Israel expanding it's settlements (nice word) in the West Bank? Sure they pulled out of Gaza... What are the Palestinians to take when we see a systematic push out of the region by Israel under the claim of an ongoing existential threat? Quote
Rue Posted February 11, 2015 Author Report Posted February 11, 2015 (edited) Ghost you stated; "What are the Palestinians to take when we see a systematic push out of the region by Israel under the claim of an on-going xistential threat?" Who is we? Are you Palestinian now? Are you and Palestinians one and the same melded in one common psychic bond? Or do you speak on behalf of "everyone" like another poster on this board? What is it that people when expressing their subjective opinions on this board, need to describe themselves as "we"? Can you please speak for yourself your Majesty and avoid the Royal prerogative. Thank you. Clearly your perceptions are far different than a Palestinian's living on the West Bank. You don't live there. You make assumptions you understand what it is like to live there based on the internet. More to the point, your question leads the answer. You state the answer in your question so why bother to ask it, just state it. First off you interchange the word "Israel" with in fact Israeli state policies as to settlements on the West Bank. You show in doing that you can't differentiate between Israelis as people, and the policies of their government. In your world they all think the same. That is lazy, Stop referring to Israeli state policies as "Israel". Its not Israel. Israel is a nation. The state policies its government may produce are not the state. The state is not just the government of the day's policies and not necessarily the feelings of its people. You were the one who raised the feelings of Palestinians not me so when asking about feelings don't presume the feelings of Israelis and their government are identical just as you would bitch and complain if I said the feelings of Palestinians are exactly the same as Hamas' feelings. Secondly, obviously a Palestinian who is not Israeli probably does not want any Israelis on the West Bank. Then again there are Palestinians who were selling their land to Israelis and had no problem with that until the PA passed a law that said it would killl any Palestinian who sold their land to not just an Israeli, but a JEW, i.e., even the Jews of the West Bank who do not recognize Israel as a Jewish state and have lived there for thousands of years. So? The conflict is a complex matrix of religious, cultural, religious, political and legal issues and events-simply looking at one issue and posing it as justification to be angry, is exactly the kind of snap shot or selective process that you and so many others use to demonize Israel. You don't differentiate between its government policies of the day and its people, then you pose a basis to justify being angry at "Israel". Once again you trot out a narrow, rigid, justification to hate Israel. This board is flooded with this repetitive, narrow chant. Your question is also defective and inaccurate. If you actually bothered to read the Israeli government policies on the settlements, which you clearly have not, or read the Israeli Supreme court decisions on the settlements, which you clearly have not, you would know, that in fact Israeli state policy and legal decisions have acknowledged that safe secure borders from terrorists, and the legal issues as to whether settlements are legal or not are not the same. So you are dead wrong again. The Israeli government does not say the settlements are required for security, in fact they have said the exact opposite. They have clearly stated, Israel's right to defend itself from terrorists with safe borders does not necessarily include many of the settlements within the West Bank. Just read the friggin policies and legal decisions instead of presuming you understand them. Next your perception of what goes on, in the West Bank, is not the same as a Palestinian's who lives there. Don't pose yourself as "we" You are not a Palestinian. Last time I looked you were a Canadian whose sole basis of knowledge comes from selective opinions you extract from the internet. You are no Palestinian. Or do you now claim to be one? Because if you do, then you would know, no Israeli who lives on the West Bank, and no Israeli in Israel believes Palestinians should feel any way but hostile towards their presence there. They would know far better than you that reality. They live with it daily unlike you. They don't need to have someone like you pose that as if its something they do not understand or as justification to snap shot and select only that one reactive issue and ignore all the other complex inter-related issues. What you have done is classic. You use an issue that calls for emotion, and generates anger, resentment. Then you take that emotion and use it for what? To justify terrorism? No not you. To justify not recognizing Israel as a Jewish state?No not you. To justify hating Israelis? No not you. Then what? To justify not achieving peace? No not you. Then what? What then? Why is this board flooded with these references to why you think Palestinians are angry? What does their anger if justified have to do with resolving peace? Do you even know? I contend you offer it as a rationalization for demonization of Israel, i.e., thinking negatively about Israel. You yourself can't even differentiate the people from its government as shown in your words. So I say again, of course settlements on the West Bank would be a very real irritant to Palestinians. And? Well? The fact Jews exist in Israel not just the West Bank is also an irritant. So? Do you think Hamas states in its constitution the only thing preventing it from peace with Israel are these settlements? Of course not. The Hamas constitution is at war and in a state of terrorism against Israel, for simply existing. This is not about just settlements its about taking back Israel from Jews. The PA? The so called moderate PA? Well? Do you think the only irritant to peace for them is these settlements? Can you get real. The PA has a constitution calling for a Sharia law state not just on the West Bank and in Gaza but in Israel. This is why it can not recognize Israel as a JEWISH state. The only way it can recognize Israel, is as it has said, with the express precondition, Israel take in ANY non Jew who claims to be Palestinian. There will be no test for who is Palestinian other than they claim to be and are not Jewish. This is just a couched reference to turning Israel back into a majority Muslim state so it can merge with the Palestinian state on the West Bank and in Gaza. The PA has stated time and time again in its assembly that al of Jordan and Israel as well as the West Bank and Gaza belong to the Palestinian MUSLIM state. The constitution calls for a MUSLIM state. That MUSLIM state based on sharia law means that no Jew can own land. Period. That's the reality. A PA with a constitution and repeated references in its assembly to taking back Israel.Its why Abbas stood up in his assembly giving a standing ovation to fellow PA members chanting death to Israel. What world are you in? You want to keep playing this ridiculous selective game that if it wasn't for settlements Hamas would suddenly magically rip up its constitution and turn into girl scouts and embrace Jews and the West? The PA too? Isn't that the point of your comment? To suggest if it wasn't for these settlements, there would be peace? No not you. Its not what you meant. I misquoted you. (psst you mean misunderstood you) Another day another rationalization for why Israel is to blame, Nothing else exists on this board to discuss but Israel's demon behaviour. Edited February 11, 2015 by Rue Quote
jacee Posted February 11, 2015 Report Posted February 11, 2015 Rue, It isn't up to us to decide who is responsible for Israeli government policies. The Israeli people are responsible, as in any democracy. It seems you are reduced to such petty and disingenuous arguments. Quote
GostHacked Posted February 11, 2015 Report Posted February 11, 2015 Who is we? Are you Palestinian now? Are you and Palestinians one and the same melded in one common psychic bond? Or do you speak on behalf of "everyone" like another poster on this board? What is it that people when expressing their subjective opinions on this board, need to describe themselves as "we"? Grow up Rue. Quote
marcus Posted February 11, 2015 Report Posted February 11, 2015 (edited) The program of ethnically cleansing Europe of its Jewish population has been so callously and opportunistically utilized to justify the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian nation, that it leaves me utterly unmoved. When a Zionist is out of arguments, those three magic words are invoked to shut down the conversation with an outraged, “are you saying Israel doesn’t have the right to exist??”Of course you can't challenge "Israel’s" right to exist – that's like saying you are negating a fundamental Jewish right to have…rights, with all manner of Holocaust guilt thrown in for effect. Except of course the Holocaust is not the fault of Palestinians or my fault or most people's fault. Edited February 11, 2015 by marcus Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
Rue Posted February 11, 2015 Author Report Posted February 11, 2015 Rue, It isn't up to us to decide who is responsible for Israeli government policies. The Israeli people are responsible, as in any democracy. It seems you are reduced to such petty and disingenuous arguments. Right. Your second sentence contradicted your first. More to the point considering you accused me of blaming Palestinians when I was criticizing their leaders and Hamas for you now to call it a petty and disingenous argument when you used it against me is also contradictory on your part. Quote
Rue Posted February 11, 2015 Author Report Posted February 11, 2015 (edited) The program of ethnically cleansing Europe of its Jewish population has been so callously and opportunistically utilized to justify the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian nation, that it leaves me utterly unmoved. When a Zionist is out of arguments, those three magic words are invoked to shut down the conversation with an outraged, “are you saying Israel doesn’t have the right to exist??” Of course you can't challenge "Israel’s" right to exist – that's like saying you are negating a fundamental Jewish right to have…rights, with all manner of Holocaust guilt thrown in for effect. Except of course the Holocaust is not the fault of Palestinians or my fault or most people's fault. You might want to go to the right thread for this anti Zionist tirade. Next, please refer to the "Zionists and their passages that and I quote " so callously and opportunistcally uitilized" the holocaust to justify the ethnic cleansing of Palestine. Please provide the passages and Zionists or once again you will simply prove you yet again throw out allegations with no source or basis. Secondly what Palestine nation? Do you mean the PA? Do you mean Hamas or again is this another one of your fabrications? At this point in time there is no Palestinian nation. There is a PA proposing a Palestinian nation but there is none. Is this part of the fiction that takes the geographic name that referred to the home of the Philistines and pretends its an existing nation? Next, which Jew blamed Palestinians for the holocaust? Do you have a name or names you would care to share plus their passages that stated this or is this yet again another one of your allegations with zero basis you that you throw out demonizing Israeis and holocaust suvivors who chose to move to Israel? Marcus the more you respond, the more you make it clear, you are hear to name call, slur people for being Jews and wanting to live as Jews, slur holocaust survivors who choose to live in Israel and of course offer absolutely nothing to discuss how to achieve peace/ Bad holocaust Jews. bad bad bad. Edited February 11, 2015 by Rue Quote
dre Posted February 11, 2015 Report Posted February 11, 2015 No, the problem is those millions of other people are failing to exercise their right of self-determination in a constructive way. Israel pulled out of Gaza, giving it a chance at self-determination. What did Gaza self-determine to do? Launch rockets at Israel, which was forced to respond in various ways to limit their ability to continue launching rockets. The people of Gaza coulda done something useful... tried to build a functioning society. But nope, that's never been a priority to the Palestinian leadership, whether in Gaza or in the West Bank. Similarly, viable peace offers have been presented numerous times to Palestinian leaders... yes, they didn't offer them 100% of what they want, but they gave them the vast majority of the territory of the West Bank and Gaza. These offers were rejected every time. Why? Why not accept and have a viable start, and improve the lives of your people as much as you can? You can always negotiate (or fight) for more later. Yes, Israel hasn't handed the Palestinians everything they want on a silver platter, there's no denying that. But what the Palestinians could have had for the taking, they simply have always failed to take. The preference of the Palestinian leadership has always been for continued struggle, bloodshed, and misery (primarily for their own people), rather than for any kind of productive outcome. Oh yes I know! Israel is just a victim of those diabolical palestinians! Forcing them to build settlements... forcing them to take the majority of water and other resources for themselves! Oh god, the humanity! Poor poor Israel! Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Rue Posted February 11, 2015 Author Report Posted February 11, 2015 Oh god, the humanity! Poor poor Israel! Say now there is insightful dialogue on how to achieve peace. Should I finish this with a ! Quote
Bonam Posted February 11, 2015 Report Posted February 11, 2015 Oh yes I know! Israel is just a victim of those diabolical palestinians! Forcing them to build settlements... forcing them to take the majority of water and other resources for themselves! Oh god, the humanity! Poor poor Israel! Not sure how you got that out of my post. I recommend you re-read the post you quoted. I've seen you discuss this topic more reasonably in the past; this level of reply ought to be beneath you. Quote
jbg Posted February 12, 2015 Report Posted February 12, 2015 The program of ethnically cleansing Europe of its Jewish population has been so callously and opportunistically utilized to justify the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian nation, that it leaves me utterly unmoved.Do you really think that if these mythical "Palestinians" had done anything at all with the land on which the State of Israel sits, the Jews would have been able to return? The fact is that it laid fallow as deserts, swamps and battlegrounds/killing fields. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Bob Macadoo Posted February 12, 2015 Report Posted February 12, 2015 Do you really think that if these mythical "Palestinians" had done anything at all with the land on which the State of Israel sits, the Jews would have been able to return? The fact is that it laid fallow as deserts, swamps and battlegrounds/killing fields.Ahhhh the time honoured international edicts; You snooze, you lose. and Might makes right. I can't wait for He who smelt (sic) it, dealt it. Quote
jbg Posted February 12, 2015 Report Posted February 12, 2015 Ahhhh the time honoured international edicts; You snooze, you lose. and Might makes right. I can't wait for He who smelt (sic) it, dealt it. Might seems to make right for just about every other situation. Where are your posts berating the Chinese for their brazen takeover of Tibet? Or the Russians of the Kurile Islands, Crimea and now eastern portions of Ukraine? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jbg Posted February 12, 2015 Report Posted February 12, 2015 Maybe if youre going to point out my spelling mistakes you shouldnt post "were a district people". What the f*&%^ does that even mean?You got me on that typo. Should have been "distinct." I don't know if you knew how to spell "mewling." As for some of the other things I pointed out maybe Canadian is your first language. That would be fine. And Israelis DO have the right to self determination, problem is they are trying to deny that right to millions of other people. Go ahead and determine the hell out of yourself! That has nothing to do with the whining and mewling about other people announcing their recognition of the fact you believe in some retarded fantasy.You still haven't explained why Abraham is a "despicable maggot." As far as Israel's alleged desire to deprive the self-determination "right to millions of other people" you have failed to explain whether Israel has the right to respond to terror tunnels or rocket attacks. Last checked those were causes of war, which do give the right to occupy land. Aside from the beautiful but impractical Geneva Conventions victors in war sometimes expel the local populations. There are consequences to losing wars. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Bob Macadoo Posted February 12, 2015 Report Posted February 12, 2015 Might seems to make right for just about every other situation. Where are your posts berating the Chinese for their brazen takeover of Tibet? Or the Russians of the Kurile Islands, Crimea and now eastern portions of Ukraine? Hey I don't care.....the world has been formed by one empire absorbing another and the resulting split creating new empires. All I ask is for honesty in the endevours. I might have been satirizing your response but Israel should just say "Hey! They got what we want and they won't leave us alone too. Tell me you wouldn't do the same. Step up or step off." Quote
jacee Posted February 12, 2015 Report Posted February 12, 2015 Right. Your second sentence contradicted your first. More to the point considering you accused me of blaming Palestinians when I was criticizing their leaders and Hamas for you now to call it a petty and disingenous argument when you used it against me is also contradictory on your part. I'm beginning to understand why you throw so much crap into your rambling and incomprehensible posts: You misrepresent the portion of your post that my comment related to. Disingenuous, petty and non constructive. No interest in real discussion, you claim to speak for Israel but if so you certainly show its worst face. . Quote
eyeball Posted February 12, 2015 Report Posted February 12, 2015 Might seems to make right for just about every other situation. Where are your posts berating the Chinese for their brazen takeover of Tibet? Or the Russians of the Kurile Islands, Crimea and now eastern portions of Ukraine?Where are your economic sanctions and diplomatic isolation of China, I acknowledge Russia has finally had it's bum spanked a little...China on the other hand seems to get feted at trade deal signings and largely ignored and given a free pass for virtually everything it commits on the side. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Rue Posted February 12, 2015 Author Report Posted February 12, 2015 Jacee you once again demonstrate in your response the very exercise you claim to attack me for engaging in. It also does not detract from the fact that you nothing substantial to offer in terms of resolving the Middle East conflict. Quote
Rue Posted February 12, 2015 Author Report Posted February 12, 2015 Its interesting. The Jews in Palestine offer to take less than 6% of land that was allotted to them for a Jewish state originally, are attacked by the Arab League of Nations which vastly outnumbered them in arms and soldiers with the express intent to slaughter them all for even wanting 6% of the land, and "might is right" comes out of Bob M's mouth? Might was wrong. Israel's creation showed that. Its very creation came about precisely because might was not right and the Arab world could not carry out its might is right manifesto. Today, in this time in history, Israel's decision to place settlements on the West Bank exasperates relations between Palestinians and Israelis and the PA and Israel. However to depict the PA and Hamas as victims of might is ridiculous. They bully their people, hold them captive with brute force and terrorism and choose violence (might) and unilateral dictation to Israel of grounds for co-existence (might) as their m.o. Their position is they will only recognize a non Jewish Israel and to even do that Israel must agree to take back an unlimited number of Arabs (they can not be Jews) who self identity as Palestinian with no test for that other than their subjective self identification which is nothing more than a formula to turn Israel into a majority Muslim state (majority Muslim=might). The PA's constitution calls for a MUSLIM state in Israel, the West Bank and Jordan as does Hamas's constitution. Hamas's constitution calls for terror and war against Jews world wide (might). However in Bob M's world, its simply Israel flexing its muscle. Not anyone else. Israel operates in a vacuum-its military actions are simply might-lets just give them another simple black and white label and instead of calling them brutal, or evil, or bad or poopoo we will call them unfairly being mighty. Yah got it. Another day, another black and white label. The actual reality of the Middle East conflict is that Hamas is mighty enough and so is the PA. The so called power Israel has is restrained. Had it wanted to use its full might, it would have wiped out the Gaza and the West Bank. Quote
jacee Posted February 12, 2015 Report Posted February 12, 2015 Palestine is pursuing a two state solution. The one state solution you describe is off the table now. Try to keep up. . Quote
dre Posted February 12, 2015 Report Posted February 12, 2015 You still haven't explained why Abraham is a "despicable maggot." Im pretty sure that If I not only planned to burn my son alive, but forced him to carry the firewood I was going to cook him with... based on imaginary voices in my head that I attribute to a magical man in the sky that does not exist, that wouldnt think that highly of me. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Rue Posted February 12, 2015 Author Report Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) Palestine is pursuing a two state solution. The one state solution you describe is off the table now. Try to keep up. . Yes a two state solution where both states must be Muslim. I think its you who needs to keep up. Edited February 12, 2015 by Rue Quote
Rue Posted February 12, 2015 Author Report Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) Im pretty sure that If I not only planned to burn my son alive, but forced him to carry the firewood I was going to cook him with... based on imaginary voices in my head that I attribute to a magical man in the sky that does not exist, that wouldnt think that highly of me. Im pretty sure since your clearly can not fathom the story you repeat was not meant to be read literally is precisely the reason why no one should take what you say seriously but could assume if you really believe it was meant to be read literally that perhaps you could be thought of as being high, not highly. Now you are an expert on the Bible. The Messiah come to preach I suppose. Edited February 12, 2015 by Rue Quote
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