Surplus God Replaces Deficit God

[maplesyrup]

Why worship the surplus god?

For years, the prime minister had a ready excuse whenever a voice would rise up from the citizenry and plaintively cry: "Please, sir, I want some more."

The obfuscation about the surplus is actually part of a larger obfuscation about the real possibilities before us.

Here's a simple test: Would Canadians like to have free day care, free dental care for their children, free university tuition, extended home care and parental leaves, retraining programs for the unemployed, five weeks paid vacation, with two weeks extra "holiday" pay?

My guess would be yes. But while we may want these things, we believe we can't possibly have them, that if we were to gain such benefits, we'd lose our ability to compete in the global economy. Which brings us to another bit of economic news.

Buried inside the business sections of our newspapers last week was the annual global competitiveness ranking by the Geneva-based World Economic Forum. One had to get all the way to page 22 of the Globe's business section to see that at the top of the chart, for the second year in a row, was Finland, a country that offers all the above-mentioned benefits.

In case that sounds like some sort of fluke, the chart also showed that three other Scandinavian countries — Norway, Sweden and Denmark, which all boast extensive social programs — also rank in the top six of global competitiveness. The United States ranks 2nd, Canada, 15th.

The simple truth is that countries can have extremely generous social programs and be extremely globally competitive.

But Canadians are unlikely to become aware of their true options as long as the Liberals keep up their surplus-hiding tricks and the stunning success of the Scandinavian countries is buried in the business section.

Such candour, after all, could be ruinous.

How refreshing to read something in our daily press that is not the same old, same old, tired worn out half-baked ideas that is the usual fare.

[Slavik44]

Why worship the surplus god?

For years, the prime minister had a ready excuse whenever a voice would rise up from the citizenry and plaintively cry: "Please, sir, I want some more."

The obfuscation about the surplus is actually part of a larger obfuscation about the real possibilities before us.

Here's a simple test: Would Canadians like to have free day care, free dental care for their children, free university tuition, extended home care and parental leaves, retraining programs for the unemployed, five weeks paid vacation, with two weeks extra "holiday" pay?

My guess would be yes. But while we may want these things, we believe we can't possibly have them, that if we were to gain such benefits, we'd lose our ability to compete in the global economy. Which brings us to another bit of economic news.

Buried inside the business sections of our newspapers last week was the annual global competitiveness ranking by the Geneva-based World Economic Forum. One had to get all the way to page 22 of the Globe's business section to see that at the top of the chart, for the second year in a row, was Finland, a country that offers all the above-mentioned benefits.

In case that sounds like some sort of fluke, the chart also showed that three other Scandinavian countries — Norway, Sweden and Denmark, which all boast extensive social programs — also rank in the top six of global competitiveness. The United States ranks 2nd, Canada, 15th.

The simple truth is that countries can have extremely generous social programs and be extremely globally competitive.

But Canadians are unlikely to become aware of their true options as long as the Liberals keep up their surplus-hiding tricks and the stunning success of the Scandinavian countries is buried in the business section.

Such candour, after all, could be ruinous.

How refreshing to read something in our daily press that is not the same old, same old, tired worn out half-baked ideas that is the usual fare.

Clearly it can work under the correct system, in the correct palce. But you cannot say that it is guranteed to work in Canada because it works in other places. You cannot also say that Finland is number 1 because of it's social programs it could very well be there inspite of its social programs. the question would then be could these social programs, improve Canada's competitiveness on the global market? Or worsen its struggling competitiveness? Until you can get a positive answer to this question it would be un-wise and pre-mature to make such statements with out such proof.

[playfullfellow]

Finland has a total (direct and indirect taxes) income tax rate of 58.2 percent. Sweden has a total income tax rate of 59.4. Norway has a total income tax rate of 53.6 percent. Denmark has a total income tax rate of 59.1 percent. The US has a total income tax rate of 33.4 percent.

I think a lot of the problem has to deal with how many other bs programs we have to pay for in a country. The Scandanavian countries do not have to deal with issues of seperation, land claims issues and a whole whack of petty little issues which we spend millions on each year. The Scandanavian countries also belong to one of the largest trading blocks in the world, the EU. The EU has certainly brought many benefits to smaller countries of Europe.

It seems we face one scandal after another in this country when it comes to government. Until we quit fighting over these pissy little issues and decide that Canada a great place to be, then we will never crack the top 10. We will focus on too many other trivial issues and not building a wonderful country that looks after all its citizens.

The US succeeds because they are proud and more or less united. Their companies also have tremedous power in government.

[caesar]

Here's a simple test: Would Canadians like to have free day care, free dental care for their children, free university tuition, extended home care and parental leaves, retraining programs for the unemployed, five weeks paid vacation, with two weeks extra "holiday" pay?

No, those are not any of my priorities. Why should I pay for other peoples children. Our country would be much better off if more parents were able to stay home and bond with and raise their own children.

Free dental for children would be fine. Free tuition for university; no, too many would go to play; help for those willing to work would be ok.

How about we get with the truth; we do not have any "surplus" to spend on frivolous programs until we pay off the deficit. Let's get the country out of debt before we dream of any of this wild spending; Don't forget all those poor countries that always have their hands out for help. Do we ignore them and take 5 week paid holidays. How about cutting taxes and let each individual spend their own money on what they need.

How about letting seniors enjoy their retirement with the money they saved for that purpose without taking away benefits that we prepaid for. Fix our health care so that we can get treatment (young and old) in a reasonable time.

[August1991]

Has anyone posting here ever been to Finland? Does anyone here know what kind of city Helsinki is? Ever heard of Stockmann's

First, you might as well say that Gimli is a great place and so, let's apply the municipal policies of Gimli to New York City. (That'll solve all of New York City's problems.)

Second, if Finland is the NDP's solution, then we might as well all commit suicide now. I mean no harm to Finns and their way of life (putting saunas in Tim Horton's sounds interesting), but I frankly prefer the chaos of downtown Montreal. IMV, true life depends on it.

Thirdly, Estonians know that they understand life better than any Finn. Tallinn is a Quebec City to a Helsinki Winnipeg. No contest.

[Guest eureka]

Competitiveness has long been linked to control of the economy. There is nothing new about these rankings. Canada's problem is still, primarily, the result of the "Branch plant" mentality and the "Branch Plant" reality. We produce a great deal of those things that we do not develop or research: we assemble to the specifications researched south of the border..

Competitiveness in Canada may be improved when we revisit the Free Trade agreements and make the Freedom come in goods that bore tariffs. The Free Trade agreements were all about fredom of the US to operate in Canada in non-tariff facets of ouur existence: about the ability of Americans to freely operate in Canada and to obtain greater control of the economy and in cultural affairs. There were few tariff barriers before and those that existed were small.

Of course we should have all those things that more progressive European countries have. What possible argument could there be against any of them? Is not economic growth supposed to be all in aid of the betterment of the human condition. Canada and America are far behind the EU in that.

Surplus, Deficit, and Debt are strawmen in their political usage as political slogans. None of these have any meaning unless they are related to the economy in their use.

The National debt in Canada has never been out of control and debt can be a good thing, as I have said in another discussion. The surplus should be used to correct the Social Deficit that we do suffer from and the political games played in its name should be abandoned.

Debt and Surplus may be Gods in the proselytizing but they are false Gods and the priests of the sects are false prophets.

[caesar]

Debt is not good. Why should we be constantly paying interest on that debt. Debt for a country is not ideal any more so than one being personally in debt.

[Guest eureka]

As I have said before, much of the debt is owed to ourselves. Much of that part is in the form of Bonds. Those bonds are interest bearing investments that are a vital part of the investment portfolio of many who require safe instruments.

The absence of deby could lead to inflationary pressures on equities or other speculative investments. It could lead to money chasing scarce opportunities. That could be economically disastrous.

The important thing about debt is the reason for which it is incurred. It can be productive and a stabilising factor in the economy.

[playfullfellow]

Eureka, have you ever been to any of these European countries for any extended period of time? Do you know any people that live in any of these countries? I guess August has been there from his posts. Anyways, a lot of people in these countries have grown tired of the high taxes, expensive goods and regulations coming out of the ying yang. Denmark has currently enacted a new law stopping all future tax income tax increases as people are growing tired of being over taxed. Living conditions are by no means any better over there and the unemployment rates remain fairly high to our standards due to the fact many people chose not to work because welfare is easier. Denmark has chosen to have user fees on non-emergency medical visits, this greatly reduced people running to the doctor everytime they got a fart stuck. Canada is not perfect but it is a pretty damn good place to live. Our government is pretty screwed up at times and needs a major overhaul but we could be much worse off. As some say "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence". Realistically, what level of tax do you think is fair to pay for these benefits?

[Guest eureka]

The answer is yes and I know people from all of them. My son works in an international setting with people from many advanced nations. My nephew and his wife, now in the US, both were researchers in Copenhagen for a few years.

Growing tired of being overtaxed is relative. It may also indicate that the "right wing" disease is spreading> Life was better here twenty years ago, too until we grew "tired of being overtaxed" and decided to concentrate wealth and higher living standards to the higher echelons.

The changes to healthcare systems are not any reflection of dysfunction. They need tuning from time to time. That is what we should be doing instead of trying to destroy and reverse civilized advances.

It is moot whether unemployment rates in Europe ahe really higher than in North America, We do not calculate rates accurately since only those "actively" looking for work are counted. Then, do you call it work for people who have "jobs" but do not earn enough to feed themselves? Do you call it work when people must keep families by taking the jobs that used to be for teenagers pocket money?

What is a proper level of taxation, I could not guess. It is beyond my resources to calculate and, I suggest, beyond any resources. That is a trial and error thing. But user fees and other segues from taxation should only be for discretionary matters. Taxation should cover everything that is essential.

There is also the question of whether these countries really pay higher taxes than North Americans, particularly Americans. There are tables you could find that indicate that we pay as much or more in direct and indirect taxation and, paying the government to provide healthcare rather tha paying directly for that is an efficiency and a cheaper way. That is well proven.

[stamps]

Split the surplus up between Alberta and Ontario, it's all our money anyway, maybe by treating our surpluses in this manner it will give the provinces that are'nt producing some incentive to pull up their socks and start producing....

[August1991]

Denmark has chosen to have user fees on non-emergency medical visits, this greatly reduced people running to the doctor everytime they got a fart stuck.

Playfull, that one is not only correct, but hilarious. Never heard it before. I'm still laughing.

First, on taxes/deficit/surplus/debt. They are irrelevant. It makes no difference whether we tax now or tax later. (Or rather, the differences between taxing now and taxing later have nothing to do with the discussion in this thread.)

Second, the key question are what should the government do and how should it do it?

Third, a deductible (small user fee) for health insurance makes eminent sense. The premiums for any insurance scheme with no or low deductibles are exorbitant. That is part of what we have been discovering with health care in Canada over the past 20 years or so.

"....fart stuck." *giggle*

[Slavik44]

Split the surplus up between Alberta and Ontario, it's all our money anyway, maybe by treating our surpluses in this manner it will give the provinces that are'nt producing some incentive to pull up their socks and start producing....

in your self rightesnous have you ever considered that maybe they can't? your statements are like saying we should cut welfare spending and give the extra money to <insert buisness men here> and that will encourage more of those bums to be like him.

[caesar]

Third, a deductible (small user fee) for health insurance makes eminent sense. The premiums for any insurance scheme with no or low deductibles are exorbitant. That is part of what we have been discovering with health care in Canada over the past 20 years or so.

We are already paying a recently increased Medical premium to the provinces with no improvements.

Split the surplus up between Alberta and Ontario, it's all our money anyway, maybe by treating our surpluses in this manner it will give the provinces that are'nt producing some incentive to pull up their socks and start producing....

It is not by hard work that Alberta has wealth; it is merely their luck that they have good resources that produces the cash; OIL. No by working hard just luck.

[playfullfellow]

Caesar, you have obviously never worked in the oil patch by the ill conceived tone of your post. It is also clear you do not know anyone that works in the oil patch. Oil patch work is extremely hard work right from the time that seismic work is done until the hole is punched in the ground. Yeah, Alberta is lucky to have oil in the ground but we work extremely hard to get it out. I am sure you appreciate that the next time you hop into your SUV and fill it up. But I guess we are just as bad as those nasty yanks in your mind.

[Stoker]

Don't forget to add dangerous work also!!!

[caesar]

There are many dangerous occupations; including logging or truck driving. Government regulations need to be tightened up to ensure their safety. However, I would bet that the big American oil companies that are reaping the profits from the oil workers prefer to save money and consider them acceptable collateral damage.

[playfullfellow]

ummmmmmm, Alberta has loggin, truck driving, you forgot minning, construction, agriculture, heck we even have commercial fishing in Alberta too. This province revolves around a lot more than just the energy sector. As I recall BC used to revolve around more just than enviromentalism and growing marijuana.

[caesar]

We work just as hard as Albertans. Now with a right winged government the money guys get the money and the people who do the dangerous jobs get shafted. I am not a environmentalist nut but I do think we need to pay attention and make a better effort at protecting the environment. We need to consider future generations, too. Our fishing industries don't get bailed out like the east coast; we were hit by SARS which we controlled (prior to Campbell replacing all our healthcare hospital workers with the cheapest alternative); we still din't get baled out by the feds. In BC we just get back to work without the unending whining. It is a waste of time and energy. On the west coast; we may often get the short end of the stick but we are still better being part of a larger entity such as Canada than we would be as a small country such as BC alone.

[Remus]

On the west coast; we may often get the short end of the stick but we are still better being part of a larger entity such as Canada than we would be as a small country such as BC alone.

Small countries tend to be the richest.

[Remus]

On the west coast; we may often get the short end of the stick but we are still better being part of a larger entity such as Canada than we would be as a small country such as BC alone.

Small countries tend to be the richest.

[August1991]

Now with a right winged government the money guys get the money and the people who do the dangerous jobs get shafted.

Is that your explanation of salary differences in the world? Is this why salaries in Canada are higher than salaries in, say, China?

[caesar]

No it is why the working man gets shafted so the rich man get richer. It has nothing to do with China or any other country.

[caesar]

Small countries tend to be the richest.

Where did you get that pearl of wisdom. Canada ia too small to get good trade deals now. The USA m,ust be an exception.

[playfullfellow]

I think you need to talk to the business men out there in BC. Here in Alberta you tend to get paid rather well for doing dangerous work. Heck, a person make over 13 bucks an hour making heart attack burgers up in Fort Mac. Until you have lived here for a while caesar, give it a break on knocking Alberta for a while.