When oil falls below $70....

[Moonbox]

Plenty of competition to the Big 6 in Vancouver. Many of the old video store properties were taken over by expanding credit unions. I do some of my business with a credit union myself. Why don't you switch?

because the Credit Unions are so far behind in branch network that you don't save any money by banking with them. The biggest competitive disadvantage they have is that they don't have expansive ABM or service networks. To achieve the growth necessary to get there, they have to (at least for the time being) be very profitable. Their offerings, therefore, are only slightly more competitive. The amount of money you save dealing with a credit union is pretty much zero after you account for network withdrawal fees.

[Bonam]

I use a credit union and have never paid a penny of any kind of fee to them, ever.

[GostHacked]

Bank stocks are down right now so if you believe banks are going to be more profitable in the future, it is a good time to buy. While you are waiting for them to go up, they will pay you between 3.5 and 4% on your money to wait. You have to be prepared to wait though.

Banks are only profitable because the markets are rigged and heavily manipulated. How long should I wait for these awesome returns on my so called 'investment'.? I've waited this long, how much longer do I need to wait? The system is collapsing.

Royal Bank got a bail out a couple years back (the bail out that was not a bailout) and yet made record profits this last quarter of 6 billion.

I won't cry for these institutions when they have a little money problems that have been essentially ripping us all off for decades. I can't get a bailout, or pay myself a bonus because of it.

[Moonbox]

As an energy exporter, by definition we lose more from falling oil prices than we gain by cheaper energy. This is basic math. Importers gain more, exporters lose more. The only way you gain from this an an exporters, is if you are the reason prices are falling (ie you are increasing market share), such as the US in this case.

Basic math huh? While you're talking basic math, maybe look up basic economics and a basic understanding of who collects the royalties on oil extraction (it's not Ontario).

It's not just loss of oil-related tax revenue and oil-related the jobs. It's the beat-down the dollar takes which erodes all of our savings and our purchasing power.

Except we've seen very clearly that our stronger dollar has categorically not translated to higher purchasing power. The OECD concluded in 2011 that the Canadian dollar didn't buy anything more than it did in 2002 when the dollar bottomed out.

The fact that our banks are so heavily regulated is exactly why there is little competition in Canadian banking. It's directly related to the fees you pay. Heavily regulated industries are always more expensive to operate, and those costs get passed onto you.

No, these are not the costs of regulations being passed on to consumers. Regulation of the Canadian banking industry has decreased over the last thirty years. Fees and whatnot have increased dramatically. What we're actually seeing is the banks leveraging the benefits of past regulation (their prior monopoly on transaction banking) to squeeze out potential competition.

Furthermore, it's a free country. If you don't like banks, don't use them. Fill a sock with gold under your bed if you want to. Or just don't use banks that charge you fees. It's extremely easy to get a checking account that charges you no fees at almost any bank (or even places like superstore).

I was going to try to be civil but that's just an idiotic argument. Living today without a bank account is virtually impossible. The only banks that manage to offer no service-fee accounts are ones that don't provide any service. The people who use them generally leave the first time they need help with anything.

What you mean by the fees are too high, is that the fees for specific type of conveniences you want are too high, such as special types of accounts or pulling money from atm's that are not your banks. However it's your choice to undertake those activities. I have not paid a fee to my bank in years, except those that I specifically choose to pay due to my own choices of the type of account and cc I want. I don't have to choose those, just as you don't, there are other options that cost nothing.

I work for a bank genius, and I pay fewer fees than anyone. I also know exactly what the costs are of providing banking services and how the vast and overwhelming majority of them are almost literally pure profit. I also shake my head at how little my lower and front-level staff gets paid and wonder at the fact that the tellers at least haven't unionized.

Don't complain that you don't have 2-3K to buy bank stocks with. Stop smoking, cancel you cable, sell the car and take the bus, lose the cell phone and in a few months you'll have it. Or....just get a free basic bank account where you pay no fees, save the fees instead then buy the bank stock. We all make choices. You just don't like the results of yours.

5% of my income for the last 10 years has been invested in chartered bank stock and the company matched that as a benefit. Unless you're a giant millionaire I likely own more bank stock than you.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Moonbox

[Wilber]

Banks are only profitable because the markets are rigged and heavily manipulated. How long should I wait for these awesome returns on my so called 'investment'.? I've waited this long, how much longer do I need to wait? The system is collapsing.

Royal Bank got a bail out a couple years back (the bail out that was not a bailout) and yet made record profits this last quarter of 6 billion.

I won't cry for these institutions when they have a little money problems that have been essentially ripping us all off for decades. I can't get a bailout, or pay myself a bonus because of it.

You get returns right from the get go whether the stock value is increasing or not. They are called dividends and they are almost double what you can get in GIC's and taxed at about half the rate, but suit yourself.

[overthere]

A $3000 investment in a RBC GIC would earn about $45 per year right now, or <$4 per month.

Somebody point me to an account without a large minimum deposit that I can get for <$4/month.

[TimG]

A $3000 investment in a RBC GIC would earn about $45 per year right now, or <$4 per month.Somebody point me to an account without a large minimum deposit that I can get for <$4/month.

A $3000 investment in RBC stock would generate $90/year in dividends + capital appreciation + better tax rate on dividend income.

[GostHacked]

Is that enough to counter the rate of inflation? Not many have a few grand that is sitting around that they can play with. Not when they are in a lot of debt to the same banks via car loans and home mortgages and credit card affiliations.

[overthere]

A $3000 investment in RBC stock would generate $90/year in dividends + capital appreciation + better tax rate on dividend income.

That is a lot of assumptions on the increasing value of the stock.

[Wilber]

That is a lot of assumptions on the increasing value of the stock.

It's the stock market, there are no guarantees but the history of bank stocks in Canada indicates they will appreciate over time and Canadian banking regulations make them a pretty safe investment. People also underestimate the value of dividends and just look at the index.

I'll ask you a question. You buy a hundred shares of two different stocks, both valued at $100 and hold them for ten years. Stock A pays no dividend and stock B pays a 4% dividend. After ten years, stock A is worth $140 a share and stock B is still worth $100. Which was the better investment?

You could also put all your money into GIC's and not even keep up with inflation.

[peoples advocate]

Jacee - we've been through all this before. Refining all our crude means the production of jet fuels, diesel fuel, kerosene, motor oil, lubricating fluids. etc - most of them more dangerous to transport than oil itself......and all those products have to get to market - by rail, truck, and ships. Do you really think the eco-nuts would go for that? These retro-cavemen want to keep oil in the ground - period! That's why it makes sense to transport most of our oil through safe pipelines to other countries (in addition to our own) - like the US - where their refineries are already in place - and close to the huge markets they already serve.

As for diversification - that's not for government to do - it's for private enterprise - unless you're a fan of the USSR's central planning. If there's money in something, business will follow. Government can help through tax incentives and certain infrastructure but they can't "create" a market. You only have to look as far as Ontario's Green Energy fiasco to see how many billions can be squandered.

So Jacee - are you all right with the transport of all those flammable products by truck, rail and sea?

Ahhh how do you think they get to market now ?

[Keepitsimple]

Ahhh how do you think they get to market now ?

You missed the point. Some on this board think we shouldn't build pipelines to export oil to the US or China. They say - why not refine it here in Canada. All those refined products that I mentioned - most more flammable than oil itself, would have to be shipped by rail, truck, sea or air to the end users - the US, China, Europe. As I mentioned to Jacee, God love her.....unless she's willing to stop exporting oil-related products entirely, refining in Canada brings its own set of concerns - which to the eco-nuts - would be worse than pipelines. Which just emphasizes the intransigence of the eco-nuts - no solution will suffice - they want all fossil fuels to stay in the ground - period.

[hitops]

Basic math huh? While you're talking basic math, maybe look up basic economics and a basic understanding of who collects the royalties on oil extraction (it's not Ontario).

I'm not sure what you're responding to here. Seems to have no relevance to what you quoted.

Except we've seen very clearly that our stronger dollar has categorically not translated to higher purchasing power. The OECD concluded in 2011 that the Canadian dollar didn't buy anything more than it did in 2002 when the dollar bottomed out.

We've seen every clearly that it does. By definition, it does. Today if you want to buy a car from the US, it will cost you 13% more than a few years ago, due to nothing else but our dollar's falling value. Since the US is our largest trading partner, quite obviously we lose purchasing power when our dollar falls relative to theirs. This is 2014 not 1985, people buys tons of stuff online. All that stuff that we bought from the US in 2010 costs more today.

No, these are not the costs of regulations being passed on to consumers. Regulation of the Canadian banking industry has decreased over the last thirty years. Fees and whatnot have increased dramatically. What we're actually seeing is the banks leveraging the benefits of past regulation (their prior monopoly on transaction banking) to squeeze out potential competition.

I was going to try to be civil but that's just an idiotic argument. Living today without a bank account is virtually impossible. The only banks that manage to offer no service-fee accounts are ones that don't provide any service. The people who use them generally leave the first time they need help with anything.

Ah, the insults of a failing, angry argument. You are losing when you are insulting.

At my bank right now, every single account has fees waved if you maintain a minimum balance, some requiring that balance be as low as $1500. Some don't even require that, such as those for kids, student, old people, new immigrants etc. Every one of those groups has a no-cost option. The cost of course, is the fact that the bank pays less interest than the rate of inflation. This, again, if your own choice. Don't want to lose money to inflation? Then move it to investments.

I work for a bank genius, and I pay fewer fees than anyone. I also know exactly what the costs are of providing banking services and how the vast and overwhelming majority of them are almost literally pure profit. I also shake my head at how little my lower and front-level staff gets paid and wonder at the fact that the tellers at least haven't unionized.

Then I guess you just don't know how to look. I don't pay any fees and I have all the regular accounts and a small business one. Or maybe you're just too lazy to negotiate or shop around. The only fees I pay are percentages on investments. That's again, my choice. I don't have to have investments.

5% of my income for the last 10 years has been invested in chartered bank stock and the company matched that as a benefit. Unless you're a giant millionaire I likely own more bank stock than you.

Relevance?

Edited December 9, 2014 by hitops