Catholics Embrace Evolution?

[Michael Hardner]

... it is hard not to question and mock how the same authority granting passages now command the opposite position.

That's understandable. But you can surely understand that many good people do believe it, as is their right. And since there is this thing called religion that exists in our midst, and won't go away soon, we can concede that we agree with certain steps they may take.

[overthere]

What could they do that would be admirable to you ?

Change the methods of indoctrination of children to remove the destructive and lifetime motive of guilt.

Help the poor with their vast resources.

Stop raping children.

And so on.

But you can surely understand that many good people do believe it, as is their right. And since there is this thing called religion that exists in our midst, and won't go away soon, we can concede that we agree with certain steps they may take.

I look for motive, and it is is not founded in faith or fact- but in pragmatism.

Understanding that is not the same as conceding anything, just an acknowledgement.

There seems to be a belief- faith if you will- that the Catholic and other churches are benign entities. I don't see it that way. Their history is filled with unspeakable acts intended to gain and maintain control of peoples hearts, minds and resources. The New World was conquered, raped and slaughtered by Spanish warriors on a mission with Gods consent, a mission of control and subjugation. Everybody got their cut. I don't see that the mission has changed, though the tactics certainly have. It is no Inquisition today, but only because it would not be effective.

[Mighty AC]

Interesting how ? As proof that science holds domain over our real understanding of the universe ?

It's one of those look how far we've come stories. We have now landed a spacecraft on an object that various religions would have explained by referring to the gods.

I don't see how. Quality engagement is ensured by the robustness of our open system of governance and of socialization. The separation of church and state and the pursuit of happiness were a couple of tenets of that system. Religion is less powerful today (fewer people consider themselves religious than a few generations ago) and engagement is also at a low ebb, so it doesn't seem to me that religion has as much impact as that.

No, I'm saying that engaged citizens with firm beliefs based in fantasy are more dangerous than the disengaged. For example we have some very engaged Christians fighting tooth and nail against equal rights and climate change based on their mythologies. Edited November 20, 2014 by Mighty AC

[Mighty AC]

That's understandable. But you can surely understand that many good people do believe it, as is their right. And since there is this thing called religion that exists in our midst, and won't go away soon, we can concede that we agree with certain steps they may take.

Yes, I applaud any step a religion takes in the direction of morality and reality. However, like a flip flopping politician, I can't help but point out the ridiculousness of their position. If we lift the cultural cocoon we grant to religious ideas and are openly critical about taking anything on faith, religion in Canada can be made irrelevant in a generation or two.

[Michael Hardner]

Change the methods of indoctrination of children to remove the destructive and lifetime motive of guilt.

Help the poor with their vast resources.

Stop raping children.

#2 and #3 are ongoing...

You have to accept that the people who adhere to it believe it's a good thing, and if you can do that then you'll see that #1 is unrealistic.

I look for motive,

That's your first mistake then.

[Michael Hardner]

Yes, I applaud any step a religion takes in the direction of morality and reality.

Ok.

However, like a flip flopping politician, I can't help but point out the ridiculousness of their position.

Ok.

...religion in Canada can be made irrelevant in a generation or two.

It's hardly relevant now, so why do we care ?

It's one of those look how far we've come stories. We have now landed a spacecraft on an object that various religions would have explained by referring to the gods.

...in the middle ages.

For example we have some very engaged Christians fighting tooth and nail against equal rights and climate change based on their mythologies.

Don't blame the religion for its crazy adherents. Nobody blamed talking dogs for Son of Sam.

Really ? Fighting climate change based on the bible ? That's pretty out there.

[Mighty AC]

Don't blame the religion for its crazy adherents. Nobody blamed talking dogs for Son of Sam.

Really ? Fighting climate change based on the bible ? That's pretty out there.

Religious leaders preach some of the craziness, so it's hard not to blame the religion. Yeah, the climate change argument seems out there but it has been used by more than one mega church pastors with mass followings and echoed by US congressmen.

[Bonam]

Michael, come out of your bubble. Religion is doing plenty of real harm in the world today. Whether it's Christian fundamentalists who foment the denial of science, push mythology into science classes, or oppose equal rights for all members of society, or the Islamic fundamentalists who murder thousands in the name of their religion, these things are very much a current phenomenon. It's not just the "middle ages", it's today.

[Michael Hardner]

Michael, come out of your bubble. Religion is doing plenty of real harm in the world today.

"Religion" represents a spectrum of philosophical viewpoints on moral matters, some of which you agree with and some of which you disagree with. And, yes, some of those viewpoints go against our common morality.

That's how I interpret your statement and I agree with it.

Whether it's Christian fundamentalists who foment the denial of science, push mythology into science classes, or oppose equal rights for all members of society, or the Islamic fundamentalists who murder thousands in the name of their religion, these things are very much a current phenomenon. It's not just the "middle ages", it's today.

But our common morality evolved from it, including this very discussion of morality we're having here.

[eyeball]

It merely evolved alongside our morality, albeit at a much slower pace more reminiscent of it's ability to absorb physical facts.

[dre]

Some things could be: touchpoints of tribalism, ritual and the attendant comforts... something answering the deeper questions for the fearful...

Actually this has been written about quite a bit. One would think that evolution would have weeded out religion over time... after all evolution punishes wasteful behavior, and if people are spending their time praying to an entity that doesnt exist when they could be gathering food, then you would think religious cultures would have dissapeared.

But religions are social clubs... The theory is that they helped promote the social integration of communities and that religious activities gave the community a chance to gather and get to know each other. When they went to war against other tribes that sense of community and the fact they knew each other may have helped them prevail.

[overthere]

I look for motive,

That's your first mistake then.

Yes, I understand that The Church must deter any questions about their motives. The truth is not something that would further the business.

The motive is control, always has been. The Reformation was a near thing for the Church, a massive challenge to their complete control of kings and countries. All of a sudden people are asking questions, not obeying priests, reading books, studying science and many other things that reduce the iron fist. But they survived and found a way to remain very profitable. The Catholic Church is undoubtedly the greatest success story in social engineering in the short and violent history of our species.