Rex Murphy - What Does it Mean to be Canadian?

[jbg]

Link to story, excerpts below:

To the most enduring question of ours — what does it mean to be Canadian? — the passersby who tended the soldier, the Sergeant-at-Arms, the young solider at the tomb, and WO Vincent, the career military man going about his business in the uniform he earned the right to wear, gives us the answer we need.

It was a dark week, but one too that had more than its share of special light. We will remember our fallen, and the light that they shone.

I am not Canadian, but being a citizen of a country bound to yours by history, language and both action for and love of freedom, perhaps I can weigh in. We all witnessed the events described by Rex Murphy. I cannot improve on his writing, nor will I try to.

My stepfather, who fought for the U.S. in Normandy, often told me of Canada's heroism on Juno Beach. Before that, there was Vimy Ridge, which showed the world that while Canada does not look for a fight, it is a worthy adversary if handed one.

What sticks out most in my mind was Canada's rescue of American diplomats in Teheran in 1979-80, and the maintenance of their safety at great peril to that of their Canadian hosts over those long, dreary months. Canada, a land cold in climate, warm in contributions to humanity and the civilized world.

[Michael Hardner]

"What does it mean to be Canadian"....

I find these explorations to be about certain types of people wanting to pat themselves on the back. Certainly we have traits, some positive and some negative, but can we really expect accuracy or insight at such close proximity to ourselves ?

[jbg]

"What does it mean to be Canadian"....

I find these explorations to be about certain types of people wanting to pat themselves on the back. Certainly we have traits, some positive and some negative, but can we really expect accuracy or insight at such close proximity to ourselves ?

In this case yes. There are some matters that are black and white, good and evil. To quote Giuliani (link), talking about September 11, "we have met the worst of humanity with the best of humanity." Most of the time, Canada as a country epitomizes the former (typo edited, should be "latter".

Since Canadians like apologies, I'm sorry.

Edited October 27, 2014 by jbg

[Guest]

The latter?

[Michael Hardner]

Most of the time, Canada as a country epitomizes the former.

So... what does it mean to be Canadian ? A: Most of the time, Canada epitomizes "good" not "evil".

Not exactly a bold statement there, but at least you didn't mention hockey or Tim Horton's.

[jbg]

The latter?

Oops. Typo. I'll fix.

[cybercoma]

So... what does it mean to be Canadian ? A: Most of the time, Canada epitomizes "good" not "evil".

Not exactly a bold statement there, but at least you didn't mention hockey or Tim Horton's.

Why can't it be all of those things? Being Canadian is many things to many people, but as citizens of this country together we have a shared social, political, and cultural history. Even those not born here add to the story of what it means to be Canadian. I don't believe there is anything wrong with exploring and having dialogue about our culture and identity. We could be like other countries that completely lack reflexivity and a contextual understanding of their place in the world. Edited October 27, 2014 by cybercoma

[Michael Hardner]

So you're saying Canada is good, evil, hockey, and coffee.

I'm all for exploring but vapid boosterism, naval gazing.... boring and pointless...

Let's hear things about ourselves that we haven't heard before.

[Mighty AC]

So you're saying Canada is good, evil, hockey, and coffee.

I'm all for exploring but vapid boosterism, naval gazing.... boring and pointless...

Let's hear things about ourselves that we haven't heard before.

Indeed! I find discussing a caricature of what it is to be Canadian pointless and boring. However, we do often use that caricature for patriotic ends, which tends to be a maneuver used to control the masses. I think the idea of patriotism and national identity as instruments of control is worth talking aboot.

[Guest]

Canada is space and cold. I can put up with the cold if I have the space.

[jbg]

Why can't it be all of those things? Being Canadian is many things to many people, but as citizens of this country together we have a shared social, political, and cultural history.

Basically I agree. However, when it comes to such actions as the shootings, I think it important not to be lost in the mud of moral relativism. I also think that the Sergeant-at-Arms and numerous others acted in Canada's best tradition of bravery and defense of freedom.

Even those not born here add to the story of what it means to be Canadian. I don't believe there is anything wrong with exploring and having dialogue about our culture and identity. We could be like other countries that completely lack reflexivity and a contextual understanding of their place in the world.

I assume you meant "reflectiveness." One of the reasons I am on this Board is my interest in exploring the dynamic and enduring relationship of our two great countries, and furthering the dialog to which you refer.

[cybercoma]

So you're saying Canada is good, evil, hockey, and coffee.

I'm all for exploring but vapid boosterism, naval gazing.... boring and pointless...

Let's hear things about ourselves that we haven't heard before.

I agree with what you're saying, but I guess I disagree that we should put brackets around how people define what it means to be Canadian. Everyone is going to have a different individual interpretation of what "being Canadian" means to me. Are we going to get into the business of what the "real" meaning is? Or just say that there are multiple experiences of being Canadian and everyone has their own individual perspective on our shared history, culture, and politics?

[cybercoma]

Basically I agree. However, when it comes to such actions as the shootings, I think it important not to be lost in the mud of moral relativism. I also think that the Sergeant-at-Arms and numerous others acted in Canada's best tradition of bravery and defense of freedom.

See, what MH means is exactly the kind of thing you're saying is a Canadian tradition. What country wouldn't say it has a tradition of "bravery and freedom"? These kinds of saying are self-congratulatory platitudes. I mean, especially freedom. These circumstances have next to nothing to do with freedom, save for the aftermath which will certainly limit freedoms. That's essentially the exact opposite of the lip-service paid to abstract self-congratulatory terms.

[jbg]

Indeed! I find discussing a caricature of what it is to be Canadian pointless and boring. However, we do often use that caricature for patriotic ends, which tends to be a maneuver used to control the masses. I think the idea of patriotism and national identity as instruments of control is worth talking aboot.

I am not Canadian. I find that your country has much to be proud of beyond the Mapleleafs. There is nothing pointless and/or boring about it. Cynicism helps no one.

[carepov]

Canada, a land cold in climate, warm in contributions to humanity and the civilized world.

For the most part yes, especially by modelling a society of tolerance and protection of minorities.

However, in 2014, the following stain our reputation:

-The abhorrent poverty faced by too many aboriginal children

-The export of weapons and small arms to questionable regimes

-The export of asbestos

-The relatively low levels of foreign aid

-The relatively low levels of refugee admittance

-Excessive waste of food, energy and other resources

-Fighting in hockey

-Excessive and arrogant patriotism

[jacee]

...while Canada does not look for a fight, it is a worthy adversary if handed one.

...

Canada, a land cold in climate, warm in contributions to humanity and the civilized world.

jbg, I like your wording a lot. Thx. ::

.

[jbg]

For the most part yes, especially by modelling a society of tolerance and protection of minorities.

However, in 2014, the following stain our reputation:

I never said Canada was perfect. Just very good.

-The abhorrent poverty faced by too many aboriginal children

Are there any countries without a significant underclass? Unless you count North Korea where rulers live like royalty and everyone else lives in squalor.

-The export of weapons and small arms to questionable regimes

The perfect cannot be the enemy of the good. In the parts of the world that are ablaze, in terms of countries, the choice in general is between bad and horrific. Israel is an exception.

-The export of asbestos

Asbestos still represents an improvement in life for countries that can't afford more modern fireproofing.

-The relatively low levels of foreign aid

Do you enjoy sending your tax money to kleptocrats?

-The relatively low levels of refugee admittance

How many more people that cannot really adapt to and contribute to Canadian life do you really want?

-Excessive waste of food, energy and other resources

Name a first world country that doesn't have some waste of those.

-Fighting in hockey

There are plenty of American v. American team games that have fights. And given the Mapleleafs' stellar record those fights accomplish something.

-Excessive and arrogant patriotism

If anything your country has too little of that. See one of my many earlier posts on this subject:

I am staying in Niagara Falls, and just finished an intelligent, though slightly liquor-stoked conversation with an Ontarian. He asked why Americans in general and Bush in particular doesn't show Canada and Canadians more respect.

I think these are entirely the wrong questions. I pointed out that I met a Peterborough, ON school teacher who did not know what happened at the Plains of Abraham and didn't know who Montcalm and Wolfe were. I also asked why, if Canadians are not proud of Vimy Ridge and Juno Beach (Normandy), why should Americans show more respect for Canada than it does for itself.

Thoughts?

[hitops]

For the most part yes, especially by modelling a society of tolerance and protection of minorities.

However, in 2014, the following stain our reputation:

-The abhorrent poverty faced by too many aboriginal children

-The export of weapons and small arms to questionable regimes

-The export of asbestos

-The relatively low levels of foreign aid

-The relatively low levels of refugee admittance

-Excessive waste of food, energy and other resources

-Fighting in hockey

-Excessive and arrogant patriotism

The foreign aid one always makes me smile. There is not a shred of evidence that foreign aid makes any difference at all, and it might actually be harmful. After many hundreds of billions spent, the effect is approximately zero according to those who have studied it.

Hiring people from other countries, who then send money home, transfers approximately 40x-100x more money to poor people than all foreign aid combined.

[carepov]

The foreign aid one always makes me smile. There is not a shred of evidence that foreign aid makes any difference at all, and it might actually be harmful. After many hundreds of billions spent, the effect is approximately zero according to those who have studied it.

Foreign aid to Rwanda in the last 20 years has been very effective.

[jbg]

jbg, I like your wording a lot. Thx. : :

.

You're welcome.

[jacee]

The foreign aid one always makes me smile. There is not a shred of evidence that foreign aid makes any difference at all, and it might actually be harmful. After many hundreds of billions spent, the effect is approximately zero according to those who have studied it.

Link?

Hiring people from other countries, who then send money home, transfers approximately 40x-100x more money to poor people than all foreign aid combined.

They paid taxes on it here.

How/where we spend/send our money is nobody's business.

.

Edited October 27, 2014 by jacee

[carepov]

I never said Canada was perfect. Just very good.

We both agree that Canada is very good and not perfect. Therefore there is room for improvement.

Are there any countries without a significant underclass? Unless you count North Korea where rulers live like royalty and everyone else lives in squalor.

Perhaps the Scandinavian countries and places like Holland would be something to aspire to?

The perfect cannot be the enemy of the good. In the parts of the world that are ablaze, in terms of countries, the choice in general is between bad and horrific. Israel is an exception.

Canada should sign the UN Arms Trade Treaty (ATT).

Asbestos still represents an improvement in life for countries that can't afford more modern fireproofing.

People are needlessly dying because of our policy.

Do you enjoy sending your tax money to kleptocrats?

No. But Rwanda (1994-2014) is a huge foreign aid success that can be used as a model for other countries.

How many more people that cannot really adapt to and contribute to Canadian life do you really want?

None. Canada is lagging behind other countries in helping Syrian refugees and it is lagging behind our own historical performance. On the bright side, (contrary to your claim) Canada's sucess in welcoming and integrating refugees is something to be very proud of!

Name a first world country that doesn't have some waste of those.

I did not say zero-waste. Japan and EU countries waste much less than we do.

There are plenty of American v. American team games that have fights. And given the Mapleleafs' stellar record those fights accomplish something.

Knowing what we know in 2014, allowing or even encouraging bare-knuckled blows to the head is uncivilized.

[jbg]

The foreign aid one always makes me smile. There is not a shred of evidence that foreign aid makes any difference at all, and it might actually be harmful. After many hundreds of billions spent, the effect is approximately zero according to those who have studied it.

Link?

At this moment I can't find a supporting link for hitops' post. The concern though touches several areas. First, a lot of foreign aid does wind up in Swiss bank accounts. Yasir Arafat's wife couldn't even access the money that Yasir had stolen, mostly from aid, for her own purposes. And that is but one example. The other concern is that to the extent it is used for its intended purposes the moneys are used to subsidize low food prices in urban areas. This destroys the countries' farming economies by lowering prices and sucks people into cities where employment opportunities are not great. Thus lots of damage is done.

[On Guard for Thee]

I have certainly come to appreciate the part where it doesn't seem to matter where you go in the world, when you slap that Canadian passport down, ZIP, you're on your way to the baggage carousel. Hopefully last weeks nastiness won't have too much of an effect on that.

[hitops]

At this moment I can't find a supporting link for hitops' post. The concern though touches several areas. First, a lot of foreign aid does wind up in Swiss bank accounts. Yasir Arafat's wife couldn't even access the money that Yasir had stolen, mostly from aid, for her own purposes. And that is but one example. The other concern is that to the extent it is used for its intended purposes the moneys are used to subsidize low food prices in urban areas. This destroys the countries' farming economies by lowering prices and sucks people into cities where employment opportunities are not great. Thus lots of damage is done.

It would be tough to design a system to help people less efficiently than foreign aid, which as you point out, is routinely counter-productive. If you need a source, try here:

http://www.aabri.com/manuscripts/09359.pdf

or here:

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/ForeignAid.html

Edited October 28, 2014 by hitops