Social Justice Rap and Public Education

[On Guard for Thee]

That is a silly breakdown and assumes that Johnny only sees teacher X all day. Here for instance is a more realistic sked. It's the one I grew up with. School started at 9 and let out at 3:30. I had an hour travel time each way with about a half hour am and pm in the schoolyard either waiting for the bell to ring or the bus to arrive. After supper it was play time with the local kids and then bedtime. During that regular school week I spent quite a bit more time being influenced by teachers than by parents. I learned my 3 r's but I am quite happy to recall there was much more to it. And so there should be.

[Big Guy]

Just so we're clear, you want me to respond to your exercise in make-believe numbers?

Why would you ask my permission to respond to anything?

[Big Guy]

That is a silly breakdown and assumes that Johnny only sees teacher X all day. Here for instance is a more realistic sked. It's the one I grew up with. School started at 9 and let out at 3:30. I had an hour travel time each way with about a half hour am and pm in the schoolyard either waiting for the bell to ring or the bus to arrive. After supper it was play time with the local kids and then bedtime. During that regular school week I spent quite a bit more time being influenced by teachers than by parents. I learned my 3 r's but I am quite happy to recall there was much more to it. And so there should be.

I am sorry if you find it silly. I have no doubt that you had contact with teachers - how many teachers? What did you do during the summer? How would you compare the influence on your life by your parents, your teacher, your siblings, your friends, your clergyman, your grandparents and uncles and aunts?

Do you really feel that your teachers had a greater influence on your sense of values, morality et al than your parents?

[Big Guy]

For those who appear to be outraged by my numbers.

Lets say that Johnny is in a class of one. He is the only kid to take Ms X's Social Studies class for 60 minutes a day. That would allow Ms X to deal with Johnny one-on-one for 190 hrs a year. Johnny's parents deal with him for 1400 hrs a year.

The parents who already know this child, deal with him for at least 1400 hrs (about 75 times more interaction time with their child than teacher X), have rights of parental discipline, should now leave the instilling of values to teacher X?

[On Guard for Thee]

Your summary is quite unrealistic. In my case during public school I had the same teacher all day. There were 3 other teachers each teaching 2 grades in the same room. High school changed in that there was a different teacher for each different subject and you ran from room to room between periods. The overall hours were pretty much the same. Of course my parents/family had an influence, but my teacher X had a lot more time with me than 6 hours/year.

[On Guard for Thee]

For those who appear to be outraged by my numbers.

Lets say that Johnny is in a class of one. He is the only kid to take Ms X's Social Studies class for 60 minutes a day. That would allow Ms X to deal with Johnny one-on-one for 190 hrs a year. Johnny's parents deal with him for 1400 hrs a year.

The parents who already know this child, deal with him for at least 1400 hrs (about 75 times more interaction time with their child than teacher X), have rights of parental discipline, should now leave the instilling of values to teacher X?

For dog's sake man, kids go to school more than 60 minutes/day.

[Michael Hardner]

Just so we're clear, you want me to respond to your exercise in make-believe numbers?

I guess you'd be free to make up numbers of your own in response.

"Is our children learning ?" continues...

[Hal 9000]

Your summary is quite unrealistic. In my case during public school I had the same teacher all day. There were 3 other teachers each teaching 2 grades in the same room. High school changed in that there was a different teacher for each different subject and you ran from room to room between periods. The overall hours were pretty much the same. Of course my parents/family had an influence, but my teacher X had a lot more time with me than 6 hours/year.

So, your Ok with some girl that you don't even know teaching your child to be a good little socialist from kindergarten right on up? It's bad enough now without someone actually mandating it! It would be a hell storm to mandate religion, but they want to mandate socialism now.

FFS, it's madness!

[On Guard for Thee]

So, your Ok with some girl that you don't even know teaching your child to be a good little socialist from kindergarten right on up? It's bad enough now without someone actually mandating it! It would be a hell storm to mandate religion, but they want to mandate socialism now.

FFS, it's madness!

No idea what you're getting at.

[Hal 9000]

No idea what you're getting at.

Well, maybe I shouldn't have quoted your post, it was a more general rant about the situation, and how fucked up people are to actually think this is a good thing.

[Big Guy]

For dog's sake man, kids go to school more than 60 minutes/day.

A typical Middle School and/or High School consists of a school day separated by different subjects taught by different teachers. The individual period is anywhere from 40 to 60 minutes. Therefore the student attends the classes of at least 5 different teachers – each an individual with his/her own norms, dress code, financial background and perhaps even different culture.

If you look at a school as a collective mind thinking the same and teaching the same then you are mistaken.

The issue we were currently discussing was the ability of any one teacher to teach, instil, reflect, exhibit or ... in a better manner than a parent.

My point is that the parent has far, far more influence on developing the character of a youngster. To expect any different is to excuse the major function of the parent – parenting.

[On Guard for Thee]

Yep, I know how schools work. Kids spend a lot of time with teachers. Inevitably they are going to learn more than just math or english etc. from those teachers. Teaching is teaching and parenting is parenting but to assume that those paths won't and don't cross in about as naive as it gets.

[Michael Hardner]

The issue we were currently discussing was the ability of any one teacher to teach, instil, reflect, exhibit or ... in a better manner than a parent.

I don't think you're questioning the ability, as much as what they're teaching - are you ?

[Big Guy]

Complete social engineering is what it is. I don't need or want somebody who hasn't seen the outside of a school teaching my kids social justice. Sorry, in the real world people work past 3pm, generally 12 months a year and can actually get fired.

What do these people know about the social world? They go out for sushi with other teachers on friday night...great!

What do they know about justice? Have they even seen it from their (mwahaha! I can't be fired job)?

Sorry, I'll teach my kid when and whom to share with and I'll teach them when to take what is theirs. Just teach my kid math and english, thank you! Leave the politics to me and keep your indoctrination to yourselves.

I have much experience in education systems and I agree fully with Hal 9000.

Young teachers coming out of University have been taught the methods of transferring information, some motivational tools, the special information and data required to teach a specific subject. Too often they somehow feel that they are now social engineers whose role is not only to disseminate information but to help change the world to their own vision.

Young teachers soon sense the power and control they have over impressionable minds that allowed to them by their young charges. Too often this power goes to their heads and they start to believe that they have all the answers. Suddenly they are "experts" not only of numbers but also what causes poverty, what people should be doing for others, interpersonal relationships, psychology, et al.

I have had to talk to educators and warn them when they decide to be more "creative" in their approaches, to instil moral consciences and to question authority and societal structure. But I do not blame just the teachers. It seems every year there are new "discoveries" about teaching, learning and methodology. All of a sudden there is "Guidance across the curriculum", "Peer co-operative learning", "Values across the curriculum", "Bullying and behaviour modification", "Right brain learning", "Left brain learning", yada, yada yada.

Teacher - Hello - You are an expert in one or maybe two subject areas. You have no business in trying to change the world or try to get into the heads of your students. Stick to your areas of expertise, make sure my kids gets home in at least the same physical condition as when I sent him to you and let me parent my children as to the values, morals and ethics which I choose to be proper for my child.

We already have too many social architects trying to mold us into their particular vision of society.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Big Guy

[Michael Hardner]

Teacher - Hello - You are an expert in one or maybe two subject areas. You have no business in trying to change the world or try to get into the heads of your students.

We already have too many social architects trying to mold us into their particular vision of society.

I'm trying to understand why people think teachers are going it alone on this. Many of these things are already part of the curriculum - social justice, environmental issues and so on.

[Michael Hardner]

Let me help out the discussion:

Ontario curriculum - grade 9 to 12 sciences:

http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/curriculum/secondary/ssciences9to122013.pdf

Gender Studies - Grade 11

This course enables students to explore the social construction of gender. Students

will learn about the dynamic nature of gender roles and norms; sexism and power

relations; and the impact of representations of women and men in the media, popular

culture, and the arts. Students will analyse a range of gender equity issues, including

gender-based violence and workplace equity, in both Canadian and global contexts.

Students will develop and apply research skills and will design and implement a

social action initiative relating to gender equity.

Character Development:

http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/literacynumeracy/character.html

"Curriculum Connections … All Ontario Curriculum documents include expectations about the development of character."

[Michael Hardner]

Can we move on, then ? Or did somebody spit coffee on their computer screen ?

If you have a problem with the curriculum, there are ways to voice that. Here's a page that describes how these things are put together:

http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/curriculum/secondary/

[Hal 9000]

Let me help out the discussion:

Ontario curriculum - grade 9 to 12 sciences:

http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/curriculum/secondary/ssciences9to122013.pdf

Character Development:

http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/literacynumeracy/character.html

"Curriculum Connections … All Ontario Curriculum documents include expectations about the development of character."

Gender Studies - Grade 11

This course enables students to explore the social construction of gender. Students

will learn about the dynamic nature of gender roles and norms; sexism and power

relations; and the impact of representations of women and men in the media, popular

culture, and the arts. Students will analyse a range of gender equity issues, including

gender-based violence and workplace equity, in both Canadian and global contexts.

Students will develop and apply research skills and will design and implement a

social action initiative relating to gender equity.

So....it all comes down to feminism! Well, who coulda guessed that!

[Michael Hardner]

So....it all comes down to feminism! Well, who coulda guessed that!

Can we move on to the idea that the teacher is making this stuff up, though ?

[Hal 9000]

Can we move on to the idea that the teacher is making this stuff up, though ?

No, Ive seen it first hand. Teachers feel it's their obligation to not just teach, but to inject their views into a topic. Try doing a climate change report without taking the side of the believers and see what the marks and comments are?

[Michael Hardner]

By believers you mean scientists right ?

[Hal 9000]

By believers you mean scientists right ?

If there is deniers, there must also be believers. No, not every believer or denier is a scientist - weird question though!

[Michael Hardner]

They should just teach science not whatever you're talking about - be specific.

[cybercoma]

No, Ive seen it first hand. Teachers feel it's their obligation to not just teach, but to inject their views into a topic. Try doing a climate change report without taking the side of the believers and see what the marks and comments are?

Oh good. Anecdotes. Well I've seen first hand that teachers don't do that. Teachers feel that they should allow children to think for themselves and try not to inject themselves into it. Now what?

[Big Guy]

Yep, I know how schools work. Kids spend a lot of time with teachers. Inevitably they are going to learn more than just math or english etc. from those teachers. Teaching is teaching and parenting is parenting but to assume that those paths won't and don't cross in about as naive as it gets.

If you disagree what I have posted, which I have posted as perception as fact, then I suggest that you may not really know how schools work.

Any successful program dedicated to the student having a successful and productive experience in the school environment does require cooperation between parent and teacher. That cooperation depends on the teacher being the teacher and the parent being the parent. Good parents help teach their children. Good teachers teach their students - they do not try to parent.