Harper's Tough Talk on Defense and Russia is just empty words

[Smallc]

One of the major components of FELEX is the installation of Smart S...it isn't there, not is the new fire control radar, nor is the modified BOFORS cannon.

[Smallc]

This is a ship post FELEX http://www.navy-marine.forces.gc.ca/assets/NAVY_Internet/images/deployed-ships/rimpac/IS2014-6016-004.jpg

[Derek 2.0]

One of the major components of FELEX is the installation of Smart S...it isn't there, not is the new fire control radar, nor is the modified BOFORS cannon.

Yes, I understand the program, but the provided picture, as mentioned, doesn’t demonstrate if other capabilities that would interest Russian naval aviation are currently aboard Toronto………Capabilities that would elevate the ships ability to operate safely in high-medium threat environments versus a medium-low threat environment, information pertinent to the Russian Black Sea fleet if hostilities were to commence with NATO.

[Derek 2.0]

This is a ship post FELEX http://www.navy-marine.forces.gc.ca/assets/NAVY_Internet/images/deployed-ships/rimpac/IS2014-6016-004.jpg

Yes, I know....I’ve been aboard her post RIMPAC 2014.

[Smallc]

What I'm saying is, all the evidence jives with the schedule I provided.

[Derek 2.0]

What I'm saying is, all the evidence jives with the schedule I provided.

Your interpretation might jive to yourself…..

[Smallc]

You've provided no proof to the contrary.

[Derek 2.0]

You've provided no proof to the contrary.

......except the picture of the Toronto in a floating drydock in late 2012

[Smallc]

It went through an extended work period to prepare it for a double length deployment, according to DND. That work period was only about 10 days.

[Derek 2.0]

It went through an extended work period to prepare it for a double length deployment, according to DND. That work period was only about 10 days.

Yes, I know, I stated as much.......A pre-deployment refit………As I said, what was the extent of the work carried out? Coupled with other prior and post refits? Your linked picture isn’t proof of what work has since been completed and what work has not.

[Smallc]

You said the ship was post FELEX. I was just pointing out that it isn't.

[Derek 2.0]

You said the ship was post FELEX. I was just pointing out that it isn't.

That's correct, and though I erred on it completion, that certainly doesn’t discount upgrades that have been performed to the entire class since commission (including the Toronto), some of which are a part of the HCM/FELEX program and have been ongoing for nearly a decade………Upgrades that would certainly interest the Russians.

[Smallc]

For sure, it was just fun to stump you ha

[Argus]

Another guy who feels much as I do.

I voted for the Conservatives in the last two elections because I believed their promises to improve the nation’s military. I have been utterly disappointed, and I will not vote for them in 2015. My difficulty on election day, of course, will be that the NDP and Liberals will likely be even worse in their treatment of the Canadian Forces.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/how-the-harper-government-lost-its-way-on-defence-spending/article20859264/#dashboard/follows/

Edited October 1, 2014 by Argus

[PIK]

Another guy who feels much as I do.

I voted for the Conservatives in the last two elections because I believed their promises to improve the nation’s military. I have been utterly disappointed, and I will not vote for them in 2015. My difficulty on election day, of course, will be that the NDP and Liberals will likely be even worse in their treatment of the Canadian Forces.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/how-the-harper-government-lost-its-way-on-defence-spending/article20859264/#dashboard/follows/

I will not vote for the government that has done a lot for the military, but I will vote for some one that will gut it.

[Derek 2.0]

News on this front:

Even as the Harper Conservatives have deployed CF-18 fighter jets to Eastern Europe, and now to Kuwait to join the air war against Islamic State, the Canadian Forces have seen their funding slashed. But that may be about to change, as the government considers adding back part or all of the $3.1-billion removed from the military’s piggy bank in last February’s budget.

Also from the same link, following the same script of the F-35:

Friday, it was reported here that Prime Minister Stephen Harper personally intervened recently to settle a dispute between Treasury Board, led by Tony Clement, and the Defence Department, led by Rob Nicholson, over a pending $800-million sole-sourced purchase of next-generation Sea Sparrow naval missiles from U.S.-based Raytheon Co.

Concerns that the acquisition under the U.S. government’s Foreign Military Sales program would tilt the scales in favour of the Raytheon-Lockheed-Martin group in a burgeoning trans-Atlantic competition for up to $18-billion in sub-contracts on DND’s new Canadian Surface Combatant fleet, were overruled. As were, apparently, any worries about the optics of making another large military purchase, a la F-35, without opening the process up to competing bids.

Another political optic move, envisioned to remove yet another conjured scandal by the LPC/NDP, to lend the illusion that the RCN would consider a non-US weapons system for the replacements of our destroyers and frigates.......Welcome to Canada

But of interest:

Next up, defence industry insiders anticipate, will be a purchase of an additional Boeing C-17 Globemaster long-haul transport for the Royal Canadian Air Force, adding to the four already in service, also under the U.S. government’s Foreign Military Sales program. That acquisition, expected later this fall, will be justified by the necessity of the new missions in Ukraine, Eastern Europe and Iraq.

A smart move would be to commit the funds allocated to the FWSAR program to purchasing all of the "spare" C-17s that Boeing is/has building (perhaps even justifying an additional order, extending Boeing's production of the aircraft), then use our already paid for C-130J fleet for FWSAR......That would add to the RCAF airlift capacity greatly.

[bush_cheney2004]

....Another political optic move, envisioned to remove yet another conjured scandal by the LPC/NDP, to lend the illusion that the RCN would consider a non-US weapons system for the replacements of our destroyers and frigates.......Welcome to Canada

Just put the RIM-7's or new 162 ESSM missiles in a Buffalo outlet mall at reduced prices and Canadians will stream across the border to buy them !

[Derek 2.0]

Just put the RIM-7's or new 162 ESSM missiles in a Buffalo outlet mall at reduced prices and Canadians will stream across the border to buy them !

Exactly, its like those that argue we could save money by purchasing the Eurofighter or Rafale.......they forget the costs associated with purchasing a new inventory of European weapons.......continuing along with ESSM and adding AEGIS/SPY-1 only makes sense for the navy.

[Smallc]

Now that was funny I have to admit.

[waldo]

Harper's tough talk? Royal Canadian Navy's combat readiness... doing less with less!

[Derek 2.0]

Harper's tough talk? Royal Canadian Navy's combat readiness... doing less with less!

Yet:

the navy has "consistently met government of Canada and DND expectations and demands for the conduct of operations."

[waldo]

from the report itself: how large is your 'by & large'?

- "By and large, the forces employed have met DND mission requirements and expectations." ...

- "The RCN has had challenges in meeting some of its readiness requirements because fewer frigates are available due to the Halifax- Class Modernization (HCM) and funding issues."

[Derek 2.0]

from the report itself: how large is your 'by & large'?

- "By and large, the forces employed have met DND mission requirements and expectations." ...

- "The RCN has had challenges in meeting some of its readiness requirements because fewer frigates are available due to the Halifax- Class Modernization (HCM) and funding issues."

Yet I'm sure if CBC/the Waldo could name one instance in which the RCN wasn't able to meet the requirements of the Government they/you would.....but since there isn't such an example, you can't.

This still is quite an achievement, despite four accidents over the last several years that have forced the retirement of four ships early, combined with the previous Liberal Government retiring without replacement 1/3rd of our previous AOR fleet and 25% of our destroyer force.

[waldo]

Yet I'm sure if CBC/the Waldo could name one instance in which the RCN wasn't able to meet the requirements of the Government they/you would.....but since there isn't such an example, you can't.

I guess "by and large" means something different to you! Why the CBC targeting?... it's not the only media outlet carrying the story; in any case, the CBC is just the messenger. You know, presenting the DND review message. As for instances, you could start here within the review:

your favoured party has held the reigns for almost a decade now - is there any point in time you'll ever accept they have/share accountability for the current shape the RCN is at - evah!

.

[Derek 2.0]

I guess "by and large" means something different to you! Why the CBC targeting?... it's not the only media outlet carrying the story; in any case, the CBC is just the messenger.

I've only seen the report mentioned in your linked post..........

You know, presenting the DND review message. As for instances, you could start here within the review:

Thanks for the link, but I read it earlier this year........

your favoured party has held the reigns for almost a decade now - is there any point in time you'll ever accept they have/share accountability for the current shape the RCN is at - evah!

.

I have chastised them when I feel its warranted (see shipbuilding thread or even the thread we had a year ago on helicopters)

With that, as mentioned by the head of the RCN, the navy has yet to fail to answer the call when required........that is fact. Also, context is needed, for example, from one of the (now dated) charts from the RCN report:

- The majority of the Halifax class, the mainstay of our fleet, have completed their midlife upgrade

- The Victoria class subs are now operational

- The Kingston class patrol vessels, that previously saw a portion mothballed due to crewing shortages, can now be brought back to service with now freed-up personal from the early retirements of the two destroyers and two AORs

- Sea King crews are transitioning to the new Cyclones

-Two additional CP-140s will be upgraded, giving the Canadian Forces one of the most capable maritime patrol aircraft in the world

- The first AOPS will start production next year

- The design for the new AORs will be finalized in the New Year, coupled with the RCN exploring interim solutions to replace the lost capability fostered by the early retirement of our current AORs due to accidents

-The initial design requirements for the Frigate and Destroyers will be selected in the following year.

Aside from the four early retirements fostered by recent accidents, which as mentioned will be partially addressed by interim solutions and the added capability found within the FELEX program, the RCN still manages to conduct the tasks required of it, and is in far better shape then it was in throughout the 70s to the 90s.........Though I have quibbles with several aspects (as mentioned in the shipbuilding and related threads), as a whole, the RCN today (and into the next 5-10 years) will be at its most capable in its postwar history, outside a period from the late 50s through the early 60s.....For that, I have little to blame the current Government for.