Harper's Tough Talk on Defense and Russia is just empty words

[On Guard for Thee]

Oh I bet you'd be surprised how many people understand math.

[Derek 2.0]

Most people don't understand the math involved....survivability....reliability....accuracy....fratricide...etc. Ten nuclear warheads would only get you an advanced terrorism rating, not serious consideration at the nuclear poker table.

And of course land and sea based BMD, which would require the use of decoys, resulting in a juggling act between warheads and ghosts.......then of course your Boomers being tailed by a 688I or Virginia, resulting in losses to your force prior to the dance.....and of course the changed SIOP allowing a "first strike"........so many factors, and the reason why only the Soviets at their peak posed a true threat.

[Moonbox]

Especially when taken out of context by a supposed "older member"

Out of context? Do you even know what the term means? You posted a bunch of frantic, goofball rhetoric and I directly quoted it and directly responded to it. That's about as in-context as it gets.

What a wonderful way to treat new members. Some things don't change.

Being a new member doesn't give you a free pass for writing irrational, emotional nonsense. If a new members want to be treated reasonably, they need to speak reasonably.

[bush_cheney2004]

And of course land and sea based BMD, which would require the use of decoys, resulting in a juggling act between warheads and ghosts......

Canada actually represents an interesting challenge because so many targets would be located relatively close to the U.S. border. Ballistic missiles also have a minimum range for obvious reasons. Funny part is that some Canadians would still try to cross the border to go shopping !

[On Guard for Thee]

Canada actually represents an interesting challenge because so many targets would be located relatively close to the U.S. border. Ballistic missiles also have a minimum range for obvious reasons. Funny part is that some Canadians would still try to cross the border to go shopping !

You should get a job as a comedian.

[Derek 2.0]

Canada actually represents an interesting challenge because so many targets would be located relatively close to the U.S. border. Ballistic missiles also have a minimum range for obvious reasons. Funny part is that some Canadians would still try to cross the border to go shopping !

Realistically, a wing of Minuteman and several squadrons of B-2s and B-52s (escorted by the Wisconsin ANG) for the targets closer to the 49^th, and that would be all she wrote……the bombers would only have to tank once to be home for dinner.

[bush_cheney2004]

Would the U.K. come to Canada's aid as a Commonwealth Nation, or would the Queen just tend to her hat collection and state dinners ?

[On Guard for Thee]

Would the U.K. come to Canada's aid as a Commonwealth Nation, or would the Queen just tend to her hat collection and state dinners ?

I hope she will come to our aid and stop Harper from running rough shod over our constitution. We have one of those too in case you didn't know.

[Derek 2.0]

Would the U.K. come to Canada's aid as a Commonwealth Nation, or would the Queen just tend to her hat collection and state dinners ?

I doubt it........none the less:

....The rockets red glare, the B61s bursting in air,

gave proof through the night, that the American flag is now here....

I doubt you’d need many nukes, and its very possible, West of the Ottawa river, you’d be greeted as liberators by most......

[Smallc]

It's very unlikely that most Canadians would see it that way. The days of envying America ended long ago.

[bush_cheney2004]

Agreed...the real underlying disdain and contempt for the U.S. (government or otherwise) is far more entertaining !

[Argus]

None the less, since you feel next year’s election will see a change in Government, are you now suggesting the Trudeau Liberals should run on a promise to increase taxes, so as to fund a dramatic increase in defense spending? How will this fit into their Carbon Tax regime of taxes, and what effect will it have on their plans for National Daycare and whatever else they have (and will) promise?

No one expects Liberals to give a damn about defense or the military. We expected better of a 'conservative' government.,

Then again, this isn't really a conservative government, now it is.

[alexmac]

Out of context? Do you even know what the term means? You posted a bunch of frantic, goofball rhetoric and I directly quoted it and directly responded to it. That's about as in-context as it gets.

Being a new member doesn't give you a free pass for writing irrational, emotional nonsense. If a new members want to be treated reasonably, they need to speak reasonably.

Ok this once I will explain "out of context" means you use only what you want to use to make an unbalanced comment rather than quoting the whole text. Also rhetoric is what our PM does and by blindly supporting that does not make you or anyone else right , but then again it would seem that the country is full of people who believe what this government tells them....BLINDLY...with no grounds or facts and that is dangerous.

I lived there in Ukraine and Russia , we have our daughter and grand children there who we are trying to get here to keep them safe.

Now if you listen to the loud mouth Harper you would think that Canada would help , now reality they have done nothing but talk and the only way we can get them out is with the help of the USA so they will go there. 4 years ago this government was negotiating a trade deal with the criminal Yanukonvict in hopes that by sending money to the crooks there that they would see the light and change...sounds like Chamberlain when he came back from talking with Hitler. So when I talk it is from experience and knowledge and if that does not fit into your realm well to bad but please learn and read before replying again it would go a long ways to knowing what is actually going on.

[Argus]

Putin's goal from the beginning was to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO and the EU. That's why Russia initiated the entire conflict a year ago when they pressured the Ukrainian government to halt the Ukraine-EU Association Agreement.

So because Ukraine was going to enter an economic agreement with the European Union Putin thew a temper tantrum which has gotten thousands of people killed -- because he feared that would eventually lead to the Ukraine joining NATO?

Of course the west didn't help the situation when they blindly supported the protesters in Western Ukraine, even as they included various fascist groups and violently overthrew the democratically elected government in Kiev

Is this the talking points you've been getting off RT? The protestors didn't 'violently overthrow' anyone. The Ukraine president reached a deal with the elected parliament to roll back the anti-democratic changes to the constitution he had put in. He then left the country and the elected parliament replaced him.

The west didn't help the situation when the west was completely hypocritical by supporting the protesters in Western Ukraine as freedom fighters but condemning counter protests in Eastern Ukraine as terrorists.

Huh? The Kyev protestors were just that, and calling for freedom. There was no mention in the media of 'protests' in Eastern Ukraine that I'm aware of which drew any condemnation from 'The West' unless you're speaking of the masked guys with automatic weapons who started taking over government buildings.

And of course the west didn't help the situation by denying the rights to self determination of the Crimeans or the Eastern Ukrainians.

And it's up to the West to approve or disprove a ridiculous so-called referendum in a state which is overrun by Russian agents, Russian money, Russian soldiers and Russian propaganda? I saw an item on the news the other day which suggested 90% of Russians approve what Putin has done in Ukraine. But what exactly is going on there? They only know because of what they see on their Putin controlled television. Most of the Russians in Eastern Ukraine were getting their news from the same source.

There is plenty of blame to go around, be it to Russia, to the West, to the Western Ukrainians or to the Eastern Ukrainians.

That is akin to saying there is plenty of blame to share between a pretty girl who had the temerity to be pretty and wear a sexy dress, and the rapist who attacked her with a knife.

Putin never planned to annex Crimea. The Russians simply took advantage of the situation after the unexpected overthrow of the government in Kiev.

You mean after the expected overthrow of Ukraine in Crimea by Russian agents, don't you? You act as if the situation in Eastern Ukraine occurred spontaneously when they it was entirely created by the Russian government.

[Argus]

That was 80 years ago. Please understand that the world today is very different from 80 years ago.

Oh yes, we're now in a world of peaceful coexistence where no one would ever consider the use of violence in order to achieve a political objective.

The moral of the story is that military spending advocates throughout the western world will continue to use WW2 as justification of increasing military spending

The moral of the story is those who forget the events of the past are condemned to relive them.

You never know when a giant pink unicorn will appear out of nowhere and invade Canada

So your position is that there is no possibility that Canada will ever have any need for military forces?

Edited September 4, 2014 by Argus

[Argus]

No, his goal is to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO or the EU.

And he had to conquer Crimea for that, and is now trying to take eastern Ukraine to have a land bridge to Crimea... to stop Ukraine from joining NATO?

[Argus]

Indeed....

Especially if you don't fund your own military and it's ships are rusting hulks...

[Argus]

Tell me, do you think spending 1-2% of GDP as 'pink unicorn insurance' is reasonable in case magic pink unicorns appear from nowhere and invade Canada? Isn't it better to be prepared than to not be prepared?

As I've already stated, the military is there as a backup for policing agencies in the event of some sort of internal strife, such as we had at Oka. But in large part the military is there because Canada's well-being is, in many respects reliant upon a world which is is not in anarchy and chaos, or in the hands of hostile forces.

We didn't joint NATO and help to keep the Soviets from invading Europe because we cared about Europeans. We did it for our own benefit, because it was no more in our interests to see the Soviets owning all of Europe than it was to see the Nazis do so. Likewise it's not in our interests to see some kind of crazy assed Muslim caliphate take over the Muslim world or to see a Fascist like Putin gradually expand into retaking control of all the land the Soviets once owned - and continuing. In that regard we participate with allies in trying to achieve a stability which not only allows us, as a trading nation, to have a more prosperous economy, but safeguards us from hostile forces which could, if unchecked grow to threaten us here at home.

Your determination to see this strictly as an 'invasion' prevention thing shows how amazingly narrow and short sighted your thinking is.

[Argus]

I do not support any party as they are all crooks and Harper will go down in history as the biggest so far.

Really? Would you please give us a recitation of all the things Harper has stolen, all the money he has acquired as prime minister? I'm eager to know about it since I haven't heard a thing.

Only thing I hear is "well look at what the Liberals did" . So because the liberals robbed the country that gives Harper the right to rape the rest of Canada.

Now he's not only a crook he's a rapist? Would you care to detail all the sexual crimes Harper has involved himself in?

Harper is out of his league and is a liar and embarrassment to all here in our country.

All politicians lie. You got anything else?

As far as how he has dealt with Russia is just one example....sanctions yup great except he forgot Putins right hand guys who have invested millions here and those companies have made contributions to the conservative party and before you reply check your data .

How about you provide us with data. Because all I see is a sputtering, incoherent rant making wild assed allegations without a hint of anything to back them up.

[Argus]

Here's what the Prime Minister said:

Link: https://ca.news.yahoo.com/harper-defends-defence-budget-against-nato-criticism-125300305.html

Which is BS. You can contribute to NATO in little ways easily enough. But the entire concept behind NATO is to have numerous nations banding together in order to have a joint military deterrent to large threats. If Canada can't contribute in any real sense to that then it's not pulling its weight.

[Argus]

That is a direct shot at NATO allies like Germany, France, Spain, Italy and others who were physically present in Afghanistan but refused any significant combat roles the entire time, choosing instead to cower in their bases.

Canada had a combat role.

It was a valid shot, too. We definitely pulled our weight in Afghanistan, especially as compared to the likes of the Germans and French. But that was mostly before Harper's time... Harper didn't send troops to Afghanistan, remember, he pulled them out of Afghanistan.

[Argus]

Very good , no I will not be voting for the moron . Only one I have heard and seen that makes sense is Elizabeth May but I am not a Green Party supporter ..If everyone reads and not draw party lines I am sure you will find we as the common folk only have a government friend every 4 years then we get pee'd on until the next time they come to us . Seems that most who vote like to be bent over the kitchen table and actually defend the right to be screwed.

Ah yes, the rant of the jaded who know so much more than the rest of us, the world-weary teenager type who can't understand why the rest of the country can't be as smart as he is in understanding the true meaning of life...

[Argus]

A couple of years ago I ran into the other person who thought Elizabeth May would make a good Prime Minister.....

Was it in a psychiatric hospital?

[alexmac]

Here is what I received in response to the free trade deal I mentioned and this is from John Baird

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 2:48 PM
Subject: A18233-2011 In reply to your email regarding the situation in Ukraine.

Mr. Mark and Mrs. Elena Timm
[email protected]

c.c. [email protected]


Dear Mr. and Mrs. Timm:

The Office of Prime Minister Stephen Harper has forwarded to me your email on December 15, 2011, regarding the situation in Ukraine. I regret the delay in replying to you.

The Government of Canada has voiced its concerns about deteriorating democratic conditions in Ukraine on numerous occasions. In September 2011, Prime Minister Harper and I wrote to President Yanukovych urging him to stand firm on Ukraine's commitments to democracy and human rights. Furthermore, I made clear in my statements of August 6 and October 11, 2011, that Canada is troubled by the apparent political bias in the trial and conviction of former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko. I reiterated this position during question period in the House of Commons on November 25 and 30, 2011, as well as in an official statement following the decision on December 23, 2011, of the Kyiv Court of Appeals to uphold Ms. Tymoshenko's conviction.

Should you wish to view my statements, I invite you to visit the website of Foreign Affairs and International Trade Canada at these following addresses:
http://www.international.gc.ca/media/aff/news-communiques/2011/224.aspx?lang=eng&view=d, http://www.international.gc.ca/media/aff/news-communiques/2011/296.aspx?view=d, and http://www.international.gc.ca/media/aff/news-communiques/2011/391.aspx?lang=eng&view=d.

Regarding investment in Ukraine, Canada believes that engagement rather than isolation is the best way to support continued positive change in Ukraine. Free trade agreements open new markets, increase international trade and investment and create opportunities for businesses, which helps to foster economic growth and prosperity. Economic prosperity, in turn, can help to promote democratic institutions and foster greater respect for human rights.

Be assured that Canada will continue to raise its concerns about human rights, democracy, and the rule of law in Ukraine. Canada is a strong supporter of a free and independent Ukraine and remains engaged in assisting Ukrainians in achieving their goal of a prosperous and democratic society.

Thank you for taking the time to write.

Sincerely,



John Baird, P.C., M.P.
Minister of Foreign Affairs

[Argus]

If you need a link to figure that out there is no hope for you but then again as you support him I would suspect no less so I am guessing you are already bent over the kitchen table ?

Anyone want to take up a poll about how long the new guy lasts?